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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… 09:55 - Jul 17 with 11908 viewspointofblue

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/16/labour-changes-little-powe

Have to agree with every word. The Conservatives are certainly not the answer for the next election, but neither are Labour with their present approach. Which leaves the question, what way can the country turn?

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:52 - Jul 17 with 1233 viewsDJR

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:22 - Jul 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna

All part of the re-writing of history - much like the heroic defeat in 2017. The only thing is losing to Teresa May is the footballing equivalent of losing to Andorra.


I don't suppose many on here campaigned on the streets in 2017 but I did and the mood dramatically changed as the campaign went on, especially among those 50 and under, who realised that the current system (with high housing costs, stagnant wages and the like) just wasn't benefiting large swathes of the population.

Corbyn policies tapped into that mood, and he had the chance in a general election to present the case without the usual bias, and whilst he wasn't the right person, with perhaps over-simplistic policies, the concern I have is that we have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

But hey, let's just call it heroic defeat.
[Post edited 17 Jul 2023 11:54]
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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:55 - Jul 17 with 1212 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:17 - Jul 17 by ElderGrizzly

Yeah, I don't get that.

He presided over multiple General Election defeats and his policies were rejected by the British public.

While Starmer needs to do more to show a true difference, why would he repeat the colossal mistakes of Corbyn?


There's your Brexit bonus right there.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:58 - Jul 17 with 1196 viewsDarth_Koont

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:18 - Jul 17 by Ryorry

As soon as he releases something good, the tories pull the rug from under him by stealing it!! (as happened a few weeks ago).

He's right if he's trying to keep the major part of Labour's powder dry - though it would be helpful if he dropped a few crumbs now & then to keep the wolves at bay.


Or Starmer and the Labour Right that has a stranglehold on the party essentially think like tories and want their turn in power and getting paid.

Based on seeing this lot up close over the past 7 or 8 years, that’s much more likely. These are simply NOT progressive people.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:59 - Jul 17 with 1197 viewsNthQldITFC

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 10:10 - Jul 17 by Guthrum

Altho it is a problem if we merely replace the present government with one which is identical, but slightly more efficient and more internally authoritarian. It may just be an impression, but it seems every time recently Starmer has been asked about a current Conservative policy, he answers that Labour intend to continue it once in power. Even Blair didn't do that.

I can stomach having just incremental progression, but no progression at all is a bit pointless. Koonters may have been right all along.

I suspect there are some planners and advisors at Labour head office who are so desperate to attract Conservative voters that they are resorting to pretending to be them. A theory which risks leaving behind all the people who might vote Labour because they want change. Also daft at a time when they were already well ahead in the polls.


Does the leaving behind of many traditional Labour voters open the way for the Lib Dems, Greens or a new party to take that ground effectively and rapidly build a support-base?

We're all so hard-wired to think of everything as either Conservative or Labour (or the occasional coalition led by one of them) but obviously the Liberals were a force until a hundred years or so ago. The tendency is to say nothing will change, it has to be Red or Blue because that's what we're used to, but I'd argue that there's far more chance of destroying the status quo now and putting something new in place for a number of reasons:

1. Communication is massively easier and more wide-reaching.
2. Society is generally far less traditional in all manner of ways.
3. It's blindingly obvious (even if many don't want to face it) that the current 'growth'-obsessed trajectory is fundamentally suicidal.

For all of the above reasons, I'd like to see a new party formed and fronted by a cohort of right-minded and politically flexible celebrities (as much as it in some ways sickens me to say it). People who will appeal to the masses, who will at least be seen as being more trustworthy, and who will have the ear of the politically switched-off celebrity-obsessed masses. Obviously they would need seriously capable people on board, but they would come with none of the baggage of the entrenched poisonous Red|Blue battleground of history.

It might seem simplistic, but imho we desperately need radical change, both from an outcomes perspective, but also to reinvigorate the rotten and corrupt political landscape. The time might be absolutely perfect for this sort of step change now, whilst we've got major threats to our future to stimulate us, and we've still got a semblance of democracy. It's got to better than the status quo.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:12 - Jul 17 with 1147 viewsblueasfook

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:48 - Jul 17 by Darth_Koont

The policies weren’t rejected. The policies polled (and still poll) very well.

It wasn’t the message but the messenger that was rejected. After one of the most brutal and dishonest personal attacks in our political history.

In fact, I barely remember the media or Corbyn’s critics ever addressing policy beyond blankly dismissing stuff as unworkable, uncosted and/or “Marxist”. Then some wooly, empty accusations about antisemitism, him working against Remain or being a security threat to move the discussion away from the real needs of the UK and its citizens.

That policy-less, self-interested void is what Starmer is working now. And we’re still being sold the same ineffective but power-serving platform we’ve been sold for decades as if the UK economy and society weren’t struggling before Covid. Huge swathes of the population have been having a cost-of-living crisis for years with over 4 million children in poverty seen as somehow inevitable.

We need to grow up and take policy seriously. As much as anything else because we have failed to address underlying issues (and in most cases have made them far worse) with this laissez-faire, “the market will find a way” madness.


I am still surprised the population didnt go for free broadband and Diane Abacus's 100,000 new police officers for £50.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:18 - Jul 17 with 1121 viewschicoazul

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:59 - Jul 17 by NthQldITFC

Does the leaving behind of many traditional Labour voters open the way for the Lib Dems, Greens or a new party to take that ground effectively and rapidly build a support-base?

We're all so hard-wired to think of everything as either Conservative or Labour (or the occasional coalition led by one of them) but obviously the Liberals were a force until a hundred years or so ago. The tendency is to say nothing will change, it has to be Red or Blue because that's what we're used to, but I'd argue that there's far more chance of destroying the status quo now and putting something new in place for a number of reasons:

1. Communication is massively easier and more wide-reaching.
2. Society is generally far less traditional in all manner of ways.
3. It's blindingly obvious (even if many don't want to face it) that the current 'growth'-obsessed trajectory is fundamentally suicidal.

For all of the above reasons, I'd like to see a new party formed and fronted by a cohort of right-minded and politically flexible celebrities (as much as it in some ways sickens me to say it). People who will appeal to the masses, who will at least be seen as being more trustworthy, and who will have the ear of the politically switched-off celebrity-obsessed masses. Obviously they would need seriously capable people on board, but they would come with none of the baggage of the entrenched poisonous Red|Blue battleground of history.

It might seem simplistic, but imho we desperately need radical change, both from an outcomes perspective, but also to reinvigorate the rotten and corrupt political landscape. The time might be absolutely perfect for this sort of step change now, whilst we've got major threats to our future to stimulate us, and we've still got a semblance of democracy. It's got to better than the status quo.


….said Chuka Umuna in 2019 and David Steel in 1981. Sorry but it is beyond proven now that if you want large scale societal change you have to do it from within either of the big political parties of the UK. And as others allude to if it doesn’t come from Labour then what is Labour even for anymore?

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:20 - Jul 17 with 1109 viewsDarth_Koont

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:12 - Jul 17 by blueasfook

I am still surprised the population didnt go for free broadband and Diane Abacus's 100,000 new police officers for £50.


And I’m surprised how unapologetically shyte and pointless you right-wingers are.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:21 - Jul 17 with 1103 viewsitfcjoe

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:34 - Jul 17 by pointofblue

How’s that a bad thing? If it’s something good, isn’t is best to get it implemented as soon as possible, even if it is by the current government?


Because it just becomes a watered down version of it to tick a box that doesn't actually help

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:25 - Jul 17 with 1082 viewsGuthrum

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:59 - Jul 17 by NthQldITFC

Does the leaving behind of many traditional Labour voters open the way for the Lib Dems, Greens or a new party to take that ground effectively and rapidly build a support-base?

We're all so hard-wired to think of everything as either Conservative or Labour (or the occasional coalition led by one of them) but obviously the Liberals were a force until a hundred years or so ago. The tendency is to say nothing will change, it has to be Red or Blue because that's what we're used to, but I'd argue that there's far more chance of destroying the status quo now and putting something new in place for a number of reasons:

1. Communication is massively easier and more wide-reaching.
2. Society is generally far less traditional in all manner of ways.
3. It's blindingly obvious (even if many don't want to face it) that the current 'growth'-obsessed trajectory is fundamentally suicidal.

For all of the above reasons, I'd like to see a new party formed and fronted by a cohort of right-minded and politically flexible celebrities (as much as it in some ways sickens me to say it). People who will appeal to the masses, who will at least be seen as being more trustworthy, and who will have the ear of the politically switched-off celebrity-obsessed masses. Obviously they would need seriously capable people on board, but they would come with none of the baggage of the entrenched poisonous Red|Blue battleground of history.

It might seem simplistic, but imho we desperately need radical change, both from an outcomes perspective, but also to reinvigorate the rotten and corrupt political landscape. The time might be absolutely perfect for this sort of step change now, whilst we've got major threats to our future to stimulate us, and we've still got a semblance of democracy. It's got to better than the status quo.


No, it doesn't. The LibDems are starting from a low base, without much political presence, dynamic leadership or coherent policy. Plus still carrying baggage from the Coalition. The Greens an even lower base and ideas espoused by some of their activists can be extremely odd. SNP and Plaid are purely regional.

Starting a new party is very difficult. Without an existing presence, forcing one's way into the political debate is very hard. UKIP were able to piggyback on existing anti-EU sentiment in the Conservatives and (ironically) make use of low-turnout, semi-PR European elections. Plus having significant financial backing from various interest groups. In the end, they were not successful at breaking into mainstream UK political power, tho they did influence policy direction.

Forming a party via defections from existing blocs has at best a patchy record. The SDP gained some following, but were blamed for keeping the Conservatives in power by splitting the opposition and ultimately only survived by (mostly) merging with the existing Liberal Party. Change UK in 2019 were swept away by a single issue.

Most UK voters care little about long term societal or climate change, but only their own immediate comfort and job security. Radical change threatens that - or can be presented as doing so. Until actual disaster occurs, the drivers simply aren't strong enough without a political vacuum to move into (which may occur if Con and Lab become identical) and a lengthy process of engaging the politically uninterested (which includes education).

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:25 - Jul 17 with 1079 viewsDJR

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:18 - Jul 17 by chicoazul

….said Chuka Umuna in 2019 and David Steel in 1981. Sorry but it is beyond proven now that if you want large scale societal change you have to do it from within either of the big political parties of the UK. And as others allude to if it doesn’t come from Labour then what is Labour even for anymore?


That's certainly true without PR, which neither main party wants to abolish.

For my own part, PR would make my vote count (unlike the current system) and enable me to vote for a party to the left of Starmer's Labour. And maybe in coalition with Labour, that party might sneak in the odd left wing policy.
[Post edited 17 Jul 2023 12:28]
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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:28 - Jul 17 with 1052 viewspointofblue

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:21 - Jul 17 by itfcjoe

Because it just becomes a watered down version of it to tick a box that doesn't actually help


Then Labour should retain the policy to make it fully effective should they come to power.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:29 - Jul 17 with 1045 viewschicoazul

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:25 - Jul 17 by DJR

That's certainly true without PR, which neither main party wants to abolish.

For my own part, PR would make my vote count (unlike the current system) and enable me to vote for a party to the left of Starmer's Labour. And maybe in coalition with Labour, that party might sneak in the odd left wing policy.
[Post edited 17 Jul 2023 12:28]


They don’t want to abolish it because nobody outside of a few politically active people really care about it.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:30 - Jul 17 with 1043 viewsgiant_stow

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:20 - Jul 17 by Darth_Koont

And I’m surprised how unapologetically shyte and pointless you right-wingers are.


In fairness to blueas, there is a point there. The broadband policy seemed ill-thought through, when they realsied that it wasn't just BT who would have to be nationalised.

On the point about the policies polling well, I'd be interested in the detail there. What sort of polling? Was it just a list of standalone policies which people could say like / don't like one by one? Or was it presented as a package, with the pay-offs of cutting costs elsewhere or higher taxes? The GE result suggests that the package was rejected, although in fairness to you, you'll say that also reflects the going over Corbyn experience.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:31 - Jul 17 with 1022 viewsGuthrum

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:25 - Jul 17 by DJR

That's certainly true without PR, which neither main party wants to abolish.

For my own part, PR would make my vote count (unlike the current system) and enable me to vote for a party to the left of Starmer's Labour. And maybe in coalition with Labour, that party might sneak in the odd left wing policy.
[Post edited 17 Jul 2023 12:28]


Indeed FPTP is the only thing* keeping either of the largest UK parties united. They are merely vehicles for internal factions - which would otherwise be too small - to sieze control of and ride into power. Under a different, PR or semi-PR system all the factions could get seats in their own right and take part in governing coalitions.



* Perhaps funding, also.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:33 - Jul 17 with 1009 viewsgiant_stow

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:25 - Jul 17 by DJR

That's certainly true without PR, which neither main party wants to abolish.

For my own part, PR would make my vote count (unlike the current system) and enable me to vote for a party to the left of Starmer's Labour. And maybe in coalition with Labour, that party might sneak in the odd left wing policy.
[Post edited 17 Jul 2023 12:28]


It is indeed a shame that Labour aren't backing PR

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:35 - Jul 17 with 997 viewsNthQldITFC

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:25 - Jul 17 by Guthrum

No, it doesn't. The LibDems are starting from a low base, without much political presence, dynamic leadership or coherent policy. Plus still carrying baggage from the Coalition. The Greens an even lower base and ideas espoused by some of their activists can be extremely odd. SNP and Plaid are purely regional.

Starting a new party is very difficult. Without an existing presence, forcing one's way into the political debate is very hard. UKIP were able to piggyback on existing anti-EU sentiment in the Conservatives and (ironically) make use of low-turnout, semi-PR European elections. Plus having significant financial backing from various interest groups. In the end, they were not successful at breaking into mainstream UK political power, tho they did influence policy direction.

Forming a party via defections from existing blocs has at best a patchy record. The SDP gained some following, but were blamed for keeping the Conservatives in power by splitting the opposition and ultimately only survived by (mostly) merging with the existing Liberal Party. Change UK in 2019 were swept away by a single issue.

Most UK voters care little about long term societal or climate change, but only their own immediate comfort and job security. Radical change threatens that - or can be presented as doing so. Until actual disaster occurs, the drivers simply aren't strong enough without a political vacuum to move into (which may occur if Con and Lab become identical) and a lengthy process of engaging the politically uninterested (which includes education).


I massively respect your political knowledge and opinions, Guthrum, way above my own, yet there's still a nagging voice inside me that says now might be the time.

After all, the mechanism for power is to form a party and get enough votes at the next GE. Neither of these things do fundamentally take any significant time, particularly if you can appeal to the masses who flex and swap for most things in life or the merest Twitter trend. Sure, the results might be chaotic and dangerous, but I'd rather see meaningful change at high risk, than more of the same and inevitable doom.

The times they are a changing and looking backwards even to the 1980s for a pointer as to what is now likely or possible doesn't seem foolproof to me. Nevertheless, I'd probably bet that you're right and I'm wrong!

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:38 - Jul 17 with 979 viewsNthQldITFC

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:18 - Jul 17 by chicoazul

….said Chuka Umuna in 2019 and David Steel in 1981. Sorry but it is beyond proven now that if you want large scale societal change you have to do it from within either of the big political parties of the UK. And as others allude to if it doesn’t come from Labour then what is Labour even for anymore?


"beyond proven now" seems a very fixed point of view in a world which is changing, and will continue to change, drastically due to social trends as well as massive threats.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:39 - Jul 17 with 977 viewslowhouseblue

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:30 - Jul 17 by giant_stow

In fairness to blueas, there is a point there. The broadband policy seemed ill-thought through, when they realsied that it wasn't just BT who would have to be nationalised.

On the point about the policies polling well, I'd be interested in the detail there. What sort of polling? Was it just a list of standalone policies which people could say like / don't like one by one? Or was it presented as a package, with the pay-offs of cutting costs elsewhere or higher taxes? The GE result suggests that the package was rejected, although in fairness to you, you'll say that also reflects the going over Corbyn experience.


polling is utterly inconsistent when you reduce it down to individual policies. people may support one policy and strongly oppose another - their final voting intention reflects their net position across many things and any red lines. you can't just find 4 policies that have positive approval, put them together with a dozen more, and then assume that everyone who supported any one of the policies will vote you. plus people take a view on the sum of the parts - do they trust you? do you reflect their values? will you ensure economic and national security? are your policies credible - including fiscally credible? and for a great many - will you abandon your promises and raise their taxes after all?

the idea that corbyn having a few policies with positive net polling in any way represented a route to form a government is utter nonsense.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:43 - Jul 17 with 955 viewsElderGrizzly

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:38 - Jul 17 by noggin

I'm not sure his policies were rejected, it was more the man that was rejected.


I agree. He was the colossal mistake from the Labour membership and how he communicated what he meant or what it could mean for the UK was consistently wrapped up and warped by protest politics.
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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:44 - Jul 17 with 939 viewsbaxterbasics

I think Sir Keir knows full well that what he says at this point in the election cycle will be well forgotten by the time power has been won. He's just avoiding the risk of committing to any sweeping change until he actually has to.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:46 - Jul 17 with 908 viewsElderGrizzly

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:55 - Jul 17 by BanksterDebtSlave

There's your Brexit bonus right there.


And Corbyn was famously non-committal on Brexit I remember.

His exact words were "he would adopt a neutral stance" on any future discussions.
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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:50 - Jul 17 with 886 viewsGuthrum

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:35 - Jul 17 by NthQldITFC

I massively respect your political knowledge and opinions, Guthrum, way above my own, yet there's still a nagging voice inside me that says now might be the time.

After all, the mechanism for power is to form a party and get enough votes at the next GE. Neither of these things do fundamentally take any significant time, particularly if you can appeal to the masses who flex and swap for most things in life or the merest Twitter trend. Sure, the results might be chaotic and dangerous, but I'd rather see meaningful change at high risk, than more of the same and inevitable doom.

The times they are a changing and looking backwards even to the 1980s for a pointer as to what is now likely or possible doesn't seem foolproof to me. Nevertheless, I'd probably bet that you're right and I'm wrong!


The social media aspect can seem helpful in terms of publishing the message, but the sheer volume of communication is likely to simply swamp it. Especially if coherent, well argued and boring, rather than provocative or click-baity.

Bear in mind you're trying to get people who have regular jobs, worry a bit about the bills and nasty stuff on the news, spend the evening watching pap or emotive dramas on the TV, to really start thinking outside the box, to start caring about stuff they haven't been taught to understand, to get off the sofa and become involved, to get outside their comfort zone. All without promising bribes of nice stuff (e.g. "lower taxes so you can have more money to spend on yourselves").

That requires a lot of leverage.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:50 - Jul 17 with 883 viewsgiant_stow

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:39 - Jul 17 by lowhouseblue

polling is utterly inconsistent when you reduce it down to individual policies. people may support one policy and strongly oppose another - their final voting intention reflects their net position across many things and any red lines. you can't just find 4 policies that have positive approval, put them together with a dozen more, and then assume that everyone who supported any one of the policies will vote you. plus people take a view on the sum of the parts - do they trust you? do you reflect their values? will you ensure economic and national security? are your policies credible - including fiscally credible? and for a great many - will you abandon your promises and raise their taxes after all?

the idea that corbyn having a few policies with positive net polling in any way represented a route to form a government is utter nonsense.


I'm guessing you're right, but don't want to preempt Darth's answer on the polling.

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:55 - Jul 17 with 864 viewslowhouseblue

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:46 - Jul 17 by ElderGrizzly

And Corbyn was famously non-committal on Brexit I remember.

His exact words were "he would adopt a neutral stance" on any future discussions.


according to abbott, who should surely know, "in his heart of hearts jeremy was a brexiteer."

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:55 - Jul 17 with 867 viewsnoggin

Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:43 - Jul 17 by ElderGrizzly

I agree. He was the colossal mistake from the Labour membership and how he communicated what he meant or what it could mean for the UK was consistently wrapped up and warped by protest politics.


Which begs the question, why has Labour changed direction when Corbyn's policies were popular?
I actually think xenophobia is stopping Britain from becoming a more progressive society. Brexit seems to be proof of that.

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