| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:57 - Jul 17 with 1007 views | blueasfook |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:30 - Jul 17 by giant_stow |
In fairness to blueas, there is a point there. The broadband policy seemed ill-thought through, when they realsied that it wasn't just BT who would have to be nationalised.
On the point about the policies polling well, I'd be interested in the detail there. What sort of polling? Was it just a list of standalone policies which people could say like / don't like one by one? Or was it presented as a package, with the pay-offs of cutting costs elsewhere or higher taxes? The GE result suggests that the package was rejected, although in fairness to you, you'll say that also reflects the going over Corbyn experience. |
There was no such "policy polling". He's making it up. The public opinion of the policies was reflected in the voting results (ie shockingly poor). |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:59 - Jul 17 with 990 views | NthQldITFC |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:50 - Jul 17 by Guthrum |
The social media aspect can seem helpful in terms of publishing the message, but the sheer volume of communication is likely to simply swamp it. Especially if coherent, well argued and boring, rather than provocative or click-baity.
Bear in mind you're trying to get people who have regular jobs, worry a bit about the bills and nasty stuff on the news, spend the evening watching pap or emotive dramas on the TV, to really start thinking outside the box, to start caring about stuff they haven't been taught to understand, to get off the sofa and become involved, to get outside their comfort zone. All without promising bribes of nice stuff (e.g. "lower taxes so you can have more money to spend on yourselves").
That requires a lot of leverage. |
Perhaps if you drop the odd Ken Clarke or David Milliband into the mix, as well as being pragmatic enough to openly copy main party policies in less than critical areas, you could add enough (at least) superficial credibility to give another chunk of the disillusioned electorate enough of a push to chance their arm and get the snowball rolling? |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:01 - Jul 17 with 962 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:30 - Jul 17 by giant_stow |
In fairness to blueas, there is a point there. The broadband policy seemed ill-thought through, when they realsied that it wasn't just BT who would have to be nationalised.
On the point about the policies polling well, I'd be interested in the detail there. What sort of polling? Was it just a list of standalone policies which people could say like / don't like one by one? Or was it presented as a package, with the pay-offs of cutting costs elsewhere or higher taxes? The GE result suggests that the package was rejected, although in fairness to you, you'll say that also reflects the going over Corbyn experience. |
The policies were and still are popular. Nice little table in here although I suspect you already know this:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/01/09/eurotrack-corby
Of course the “package” was rejected but the package was clearly labeled and dismissed as too expensive or even uncosted. Apparently, basic social democracy just costs too much for the UK — and the UK alone.
But when was cost even an issue when we’ve raised the public debt by 1.5 trillion in 15 years to not even stand still? What is the cost of not doing what we should be doing in a developed nation that’s falling behind its neighbours on basic metrics like poverty, housing, productivity and wages?
We’ve got a stagnant/low growth country out of it with each real global challenge exposing just how unbalanced and unprepared we are for present-day reality let alone the future. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:01 - Jul 17 with 959 views | Guthrum |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:35 - Jul 17 by NthQldITFC |
I massively respect your political knowledge and opinions, Guthrum, way above my own, yet there's still a nagging voice inside me that says now might be the time.
After all, the mechanism for power is to form a party and get enough votes at the next GE. Neither of these things do fundamentally take any significant time, particularly if you can appeal to the masses who flex and swap for most things in life or the merest Twitter trend. Sure, the results might be chaotic and dangerous, but I'd rather see meaningful change at high risk, than more of the same and inevitable doom.
The times they are a changing and looking backwards even to the 1980s for a pointer as to what is now likely or possible doesn't seem foolproof to me. Nevertheless, I'd probably bet that you're right and I'm wrong! |
It's rather depressing, but has always been the way. If you never have, I'd recommend reading The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressell. In it, the radicalised protagonist is faced with workmates who just carry on with their struggling lives, accepting the few titbits thrown their way, respecting the status quo and who just think he's a bit odd, even dangerous. Ultimately, many of the changes advocated did come to pass, but it took decades of striving, even from then. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:03 - Jul 17 with 950 views | giant_stow |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:55 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Which begs the question, why has Labour changed direction when Corbyn's policies were popular?
I actually think xenophobia is stopping Britain from becoming a more progressive society. Brexit seems to be proof of that. |
...A Brexit that Corbyn never really fought (as leader of the only main party that might have put up a fight too). I think we also could do with some backing up on the policies being popular, given the most solid evidence says that they weren't (as a whole). |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:04 - Jul 17 with 949 views | blueasfook |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:55 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Which begs the question, why has Labour changed direction when Corbyn's policies were popular?
I actually think xenophobia is stopping Britain from becoming a more progressive society. Brexit seems to be proof of that. |
It's a myth that Britain is a Xenophobic country. Do you have some data to back that statement up? | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:06 - Jul 17 with 906 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 11:48 - Jul 17 by Darth_Koont |
The policies weren’t rejected. The policies polled (and still poll) very well.
It wasn’t the message but the messenger that was rejected. After one of the most brutal and dishonest personal attacks in our political history.
In fact, I barely remember the media or Corbyn’s critics ever addressing policy beyond blankly dismissing stuff as unworkable, uncosted and/or “Marxist”. Then some wooly, empty accusations about antisemitism, him working against Remain or being a security threat to move the discussion away from the real needs of the UK and its citizens.
That policy-less, self-interested void is what Starmer is working now. And we’re still being sold the same ineffective but power-serving platform we’ve been sold for decades as if the UK economy and society weren’t struggling before Covid. Huge swathes of the population have been having a cost-of-living crisis for years with over 4 million children in poverty seen as somehow inevitable.
We need to grow up and take policy seriously. As much as anything else because we have failed to address underlying issues (and in most cases have made them far worse) with this laissez-faire, “the market will find a way” madness. |
Why don’t you just fcuk off with your “ empty accusations about antisemitism” bollox. The EHRC found Labour under Corbyn of unlawful discrimination against its Jewish members.
This constant “smear” bullsh@t is an insult to the Jewish Labour members who were racially discriminated against by Corbyn’s acolytes and the British Jewish community who were so rightly opposed to Corbyn because of antisemtism.
You’ve already driven one Jewish board member off here with your constant apologism and support for antisemitism and anti Semites. I’m going to pull you on this every time you do it.
I can’t help but feel that if you were an apologist for Islamophobia and support Islamophobic tropes on here because you objected to the policies of Saudi Arabia or any other Islamic state then Ohil would have quite rightly banned you. I’m amazed he still allows you to post rather than quietly delete these exchanges without embarrassing you.
Imo you are an utter stain on this board.
Edit. The irony in all of this is that I will probably get into more trouble on here for telling you to fcuk off than you will for your constant support, denial and repetition of antisemitism. Funny old world. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 14:05]
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:07 - Jul 17 with 911 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:01 - Jul 17 by Darth_Koont |
The policies were and still are popular. Nice little table in here although I suspect you already know this:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/01/09/eurotrack-corby
Of course the “package” was rejected but the package was clearly labeled and dismissed as too expensive or even uncosted. Apparently, basic social democracy just costs too much for the UK — and the UK alone.
But when was cost even an issue when we’ve raised the public debt by 1.5 trillion in 15 years to not even stand still? What is the cost of not doing what we should be doing in a developed nation that’s falling behind its neighbours on basic metrics like poverty, housing, productivity and wages?
We’ve got a stagnant/low growth country out of it with each real global challenge exposing just how unbalanced and unprepared we are for present-day reality let alone the future. |
Of course the policies listed there were popular.
It was basically give away basic utilities (broadband), make universities free, tax the rich, ban nuclear weapons and renationalise everything.
People just didn't believe it was achievable. And he had multiple elections to convince people and still didn't/couldn't.
I want the Tories out more than anything and right now Starmer appears to be the best chance of that on a national level. Whether that is to everyone's taste is to be seen, but it HAS to be an improvement on this bunch of corrupt cretins. |  | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:08 - Jul 17 with 904 views | chicoazul |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:55 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Which begs the question, why has Labour changed direction when Corbyn's policies were popular?
I actually think xenophobia is stopping Britain from becoming a more progressive society. Brexit seems to be proof of that. |
Why do you think fear of foreign people is doing that? |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:08 - Jul 17 with 903 views | giant_stow |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:01 - Jul 17 by Darth_Koont |
The policies were and still are popular. Nice little table in here although I suspect you already know this:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/01/09/eurotrack-corby
Of course the “package” was rejected but the package was clearly labeled and dismissed as too expensive or even uncosted. Apparently, basic social democracy just costs too much for the UK — and the UK alone.
But when was cost even an issue when we’ve raised the public debt by 1.5 trillion in 15 years to not even stand still? What is the cost of not doing what we should be doing in a developed nation that’s falling behind its neighbours on basic metrics like poverty, housing, productivity and wages?
We’ve got a stagnant/low growth country out of it with each real global challenge exposing just how unbalanced and unprepared we are for present-day reality let alone the future. |
That kind of confirms what I thought tbh - a wishlist, with no costs attached. Even the 5% income tax increase for top earners would be easy to say yes to the majority of low earners. How about if the respondants were aske, would you support all these measures if they cost you x much extra on *your* income tax?
I see your wider point about increased national debt, but without the context (the 2008 financial crisis and Covid) its as empty as the politics you yourself complain about. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:16 - Jul 17 with 869 views | noggin |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:08 - Jul 17 by chicoazul |
Why do you think fear of foreign people is doing that? |
Well, people voted against their own interests, for brexit, based on that fear. Why do you think the tories are still fighting to push through this ridiculous idea of sending asylum seekers to Rwanda? |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:17 - Jul 17 with 864 views | Guthrum |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 12:59 - Jul 17 by NthQldITFC |
Perhaps if you drop the odd Ken Clarke or David Milliband into the mix, as well as being pragmatic enough to openly copy main party policies in less than critical areas, you could add enough (at least) superficial credibility to give another chunk of the disillusioned electorate enough of a push to chance their arm and get the snowball rolling? |
Some known figureheads would be a help, certainly.
A large number of people (even former Conservative supporters) seem to think the present government is ridiculous and incompetent. But that is not the same as wanting radical change, however necessary it may feel to those (relatively few) looking closely at the problems with the planet and society. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:17 - Jul 17 with 865 views | baxterbasics |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:04 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
It's a myth that Britain is a Xenophobic country. Do you have some data to back that statement up? |
Britain is one of the least racist countries in Europe.
Just look what happens when black players play in many of these countries and the effective "shrug" such incidents are met with by authorities there. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:21 - Jul 17 with 834 views | noggin |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:17 - Jul 17 by baxterbasics |
Britain is one of the least racist countries in Europe.
Just look what happens when black players play in many of these countries and the effective "shrug" such incidents are met with by authorities there. |
Just because another country is worse, doesn't mean 'unfounded' fears around immigration isn't a problem in Britain. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:32 - Jul 17 with 800 views | baxterbasics |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:21 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Just because another country is worse, doesn't mean 'unfounded' fears around immigration isn't a problem in Britain. |
Notice I said 'least' not that there was no racism at all. That would be silly.
I'm also aware that a few anecdotal examples from football matches does not represent solid empirical evidence. It was just a small example. I do think however my statement will hold up to closer scrutiny. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:35 - Jul 17 with 799 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 10:10 - Jul 17 by Guthrum |
Altho it is a problem if we merely replace the present government with one which is identical, but slightly more efficient and more internally authoritarian. It may just be an impression, but it seems every time recently Starmer has been asked about a current Conservative policy, he answers that Labour intend to continue it once in power. Even Blair didn't do that.
I can stomach having just incremental progression, but no progression at all is a bit pointless. Koonters may have been right all along.
I suspect there are some planners and advisors at Labour head office who are so desperate to attract Conservative voters that they are resorting to pretending to be them. A theory which risks leaving behind all the people who might vote Labour because they want change. Also daft at a time when they were already well ahead in the polls. |
Last paragraph sums up the awkward position they find themselves in. They must be relying heavily on loyalty and the ABT vote and solely aiming this messaging at the voters that deserted them at the last GE for Johnson’s ‘get Brexit done’.
I hope they’re not taking that support for granted or we’re all in trouble. God knows what things would be like under another 5 years of the Tories. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:36 - Jul 17 with 797 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:06 - Jul 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Why don’t you just fcuk off with your “ empty accusations about antisemitism” bollox. The EHRC found Labour under Corbyn of unlawful discrimination against its Jewish members.
This constant “smear” bullsh@t is an insult to the Jewish Labour members who were racially discriminated against by Corbyn’s acolytes and the British Jewish community who were so rightly opposed to Corbyn because of antisemtism.
You’ve already driven one Jewish board member off here with your constant apologism and support for antisemitism and anti Semites. I’m going to pull you on this every time you do it.
I can’t help but feel that if you were an apologist for Islamophobia and support Islamophobic tropes on here because you objected to the policies of Saudi Arabia or any other Islamic state then Ohil would have quite rightly banned you. I’m amazed he still allows you to post rather than quietly delete these exchanges without embarrassing you.
Imo you are an utter stain on this board.
Edit. The irony in all of this is that I will probably get into more trouble on here for telling you to fcuk off than you will for your constant support, denial and repetition of antisemitism. Funny old world. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 14:05]
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Smeary liars gonna smearily lie.
I’m completely used to it of course. But ridiculously harsh on Phil and the forum. I’ve backed up my counter-arguments with evidence which might explain why he doesn’t take your accusations as read.
And yes, I will always confront dodgy dishonest operators like you. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:36 - Jul 17 with 794 views | chicoazul |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:16 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Well, people voted against their own interests, for brexit, based on that fear. Why do you think the tories are still fighting to push through this ridiculous idea of sending asylum seekers to Rwanda? |
This is just “everyone who voted for Brexit is thick” all over again. Maybe these people you deride voted for Brexit for reasons they sincerely hold despite them knowing it was against their best interests? Certainly economically anyway which is what many of these arguments boil down to.
This also implies that being in the EU would make us much more progressive. This is clearly ignorant of a lot of what is happening in many EU countries. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:43 - Jul 17 with 771 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:08 - Jul 17 by giant_stow |
That kind of confirms what I thought tbh - a wishlist, with no costs attached. Even the 5% income tax increase for top earners would be easy to say yes to the majority of low earners. How about if the respondants were aske, would you support all these measures if they cost you x much extra on *your* income tax?
I see your wider point about increased national debt, but without the context (the 2008 financial crisis and Covid) its as empty as the politics you yourself complain about. |
We can afford it. It’s about priorities and political will.
The policies weren’t rejected per se and not on any reasonable grounds re: cost/benefit. Because the policies themselves were barely discussed. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:46 - Jul 17 with 756 views | blueasfook |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:21 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Just because another country is worse, doesn't mean 'unfounded' fears around immigration isn't a problem in Britain. |
i think it's time you got div listed. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:53 - Jul 17 with 735 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:21 - Jul 17 by noggin |
Just because another country is worse, doesn't mean 'unfounded' fears around immigration isn't a problem in Britain. |
Xenophobia is certainly a political problem given our ridiculous FPTP and loopy right-wing press setting the agenda. The last 20 years has seen the minority xenophobes at the very heart of our politics. And stuff like the Rwanda policy that not even Labour are willing to fight proves that. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:56 - Jul 17 with 720 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 10:53 - Jul 17 by Blueschev |
But the biased right-wing press will say that about Labour regardless of their policies, the current strategy is just enabling the Tories to set the agenda and the tone of the debate.
It is the oppositions job to oppose, and I hope to see them actually starting to do it. I won't hold my breath though. |
Maybe letting the Tories set the agenda is the best tactic right now. They seem quite happy to demonstrate their incompetence and immorality, so why not keep giving them enough rope to keep hanging themselves?
It feels like some people want to see some offering from Labour though (the frustration on here is easy to gauge), so I’m not sure how long they can go without committing to something. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:59 - Jul 17 with 702 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:56 - Jul 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Maybe letting the Tories set the agenda is the best tactic right now. They seem quite happy to demonstrate their incompetence and immorality, so why not keep giving them enough rope to keep hanging themselves?
It feels like some people want to see some offering from Labour though (the frustration on here is easy to gauge), so I’m not sure how long they can go without committing to something. |
I think it’s the growing realisation that this is the offering. Always was.
Generally I don’t believe many understand how right-wing the Labour Right actually is. If it ain’t coming from market-led growth it ain’t coming period. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 13:59 - Jul 17 with 704 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Starmer.....too right wing for Labour's center right.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/17/labour-mps-keir-starmer-tories-
Rosie Duffield, Labour MP for Canterbury, who is on the centre-right of the party, responded to Starmer’s comments by describing the two-child policy as “one of the most unpleasant pieces of legislation ever to have been passed in the UK”.
She tweeted: “It’s very rare for someone to enter the House of Commons having been on tax credits, but myself and a few others did in 2017; scrapping this cruel policy was one of our shared political motives.” |  |
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