| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) 18:21 - Aug 2 with 5857 views | Dubtractor |
I know, what's the need to read ANOTHER thread on this? I've barely made any new threads recently though, so I think I'm due my turn!
I'm broadly comfortable with where we are right now. Clearly we need to strengthen (both numbers and quality) at the back, and another striker wouldn't hurt, but otherwise we're not in too bad a shape at all. Critically there is still another month to go before the transfer window shuts, and so lets judge it at that point. That's not to write off the games between now and then, but I think we've got enough about us to pick up points.
Part of the issue with some of us feeling less happy with things currently is expectation, and obviously a lot of that has come from the club, but I'd hope that we're all smart enough to take what Ashton says with a pinch of salt. He has hyped us all up, but he's a salesman really and it has worked as we've been filling the stadium for the last 6 months, and will be again all of this season.
Realistically a top half finish* would be a really good first season back for us, and being brutally honest I'm not sure that back to back promotions would leave us well prepared for the premier league anyway. Sure it's great to be ambitious and aim for the stars, but I think we've probably got a bit carried away after the second half of last season, and we may get a bit of a rude awakening in some games - lets not forget that half (or more) of league one last season was pretty crap teams just aiming to spoil games.
This isn't about managing down expectations in light of a perceived disappointing Summer, just being pragmatic about what is realistic to expect.
*Observant posters may note that I predict 6th place for us in the prediction league, but that's just me being bullish about things and I don't genuinely expect that to be the case. [Post edited 2 Aug 2023 18:31]
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:30 - Aug 3 with 1386 views | Dubtractor |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:21 - Aug 3 by Dyland |
It’s naive to expect a ton of top quality signings immediately. And if the club owners think we should’ve got them all in before the season starts then they’re naive too. Ashton is talking bullishly to his bosses as much as us fans.
No one wants “consolidation in the championship”. Reality is, it will probs take at least two windows to properly strengthen the first team and squad across the board. We absolutely need one or two defenders, and a striker. That doesn’t mean the current lot won’t make a good account of themselves in August…..
And here’s the main point, the transfer window is open for another few weeks ffs. Yeh everyone wants to do their business early, and there’s another key word there I.e. everyone. Competition innit. From established and superficially at least more attractive clubs. That extends to our limited ability to attract bargains from overseas, currently, maybe. That may hopefully change if we, er, consolidate.
Out of interest, and regarding the current squad in comparison, did Sunderland massively upgrade players last summer? I hear Blooters point e.g. about last season and where we finished but the metric to judge the existing team is surely the run of our last 15 or whatever games. We absolutely shat on everyone by any measure pro analysts and clubs use. We were ridiculously good, albeit of course it was against div 3 oppo. But we should be positive and fans stop acting like delusional spoiled kids.
Maybe that’s what they are though so hairy muff.
COYFB |
Good post that. You should post before you hit the gin more often. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:36 - Aug 3 with 1366 views | Dyland |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:30 - Aug 3 by Dubtractor |
Good post that. You should post before you hit the gin more often. |
Nah, normally too sleepy before 9am |  |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:48 - Aug 3 with 1344 views | jayessess |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:21 - Aug 3 by Dyland |
It’s naive to expect a ton of top quality signings immediately. And if the club owners think we should’ve got them all in before the season starts then they’re naive too. Ashton is talking bullishly to his bosses as much as us fans.
No one wants “consolidation in the championship”. Reality is, it will probs take at least two windows to properly strengthen the first team and squad across the board. We absolutely need one or two defenders, and a striker. That doesn’t mean the current lot won’t make a good account of themselves in August…..
And here’s the main point, the transfer window is open for another few weeks ffs. Yeh everyone wants to do their business early, and there’s another key word there I.e. everyone. Competition innit. From established and superficially at least more attractive clubs. That extends to our limited ability to attract bargains from overseas, currently, maybe. That may hopefully change if we, er, consolidate.
Out of interest, and regarding the current squad in comparison, did Sunderland massively upgrade players last summer? I hear Blooters point e.g. about last season and where we finished but the metric to judge the existing team is surely the run of our last 15 or whatever games. We absolutely shat on everyone by any measure pro analysts and clubs use. We were ridiculously good, albeit of course it was against div 3 oppo. But we should be positive and fans stop acting like delusional spoiled kids.
Maybe that’s what they are though so hairy muff.
COYFB |
Sunderland's first starting line-up last season involved only one debutant, Daniel Ballard, who then broke his foot 9 minutes into their third game and didn't re-appear until Late December.
One other debutant, Ellis Simms, then a loanee unproven in the Championship, came on as a substitute and was the only other new* signing to start a game for them in August.
*They did also make Jack Clarke a permanent signing, after having him on loan the previous season. |  |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:08 - Aug 3 with 1325 views | JohnTy |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:48 - Aug 3 by jayessess |
Sunderland's first starting line-up last season involved only one debutant, Daniel Ballard, who then broke his foot 9 minutes into their third game and didn't re-appear until Late December.
One other debutant, Ellis Simms, then a loanee unproven in the Championship, came on as a substitute and was the only other new* signing to start a game for them in August.
*They did also make Jack Clarke a permanent signing, after having him on loan the previous season. |
Sunderland apparently still looking for a striker. We are not the only team still hoping to strengthen. Obvious really I guess.
https://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/football/sunderland-afc/tony-mowbray-issues |  | | |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:16 - Aug 3 with 1305 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:30 - Aug 3 by Dubtractor |
Good post that. You should post before you hit the gin more often. |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:24 - Aug 3 with 1289 views | jas0999 |
Our midfield and attacking options look extremely competitive at championship level. Top half of table.
Concern for me is Walton. Let’s hope he isn’t out for long, as the back up options may not be strong enough.
As stated, defensively we certainly need to strengthen. |  | | |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:25 - Aug 3 with 1287 views | OldFart71 |
The aim was always to get out of League One and then when right to push for the Prem. I do not want a Budgie situation where we get promoted, come down, get promoted, come down. Eventually as with last season your best players get sold and the one's coming in maybe haven't the quality. Parachute payments help, but if you have a bad season where you are continually losing then whoever you are you will lose a few thousand fans as you gain them when your winning. Consolidate, see where we are come Christmas, see what's lacking. If in a good position make a significant signing or two. If it looks like a mid table is possible with the current squad then hold off on signings until the beginning of the following season. If in the doh-dah then bring in re-enforcements. | | | |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:31 - Aug 3 with 1270 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:24 - Aug 3 by jas0999 |
Our midfield and attacking options look extremely competitive at championship level. Top half of table.
Concern for me is Walton. Let’s hope he isn’t out for long, as the back up options may not be strong enough.
As stated, defensively we certainly need to strengthen. |
Hladky will do just fine. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:43 - Aug 3 with 1253 views | Herbivore |
Very sensible post, Dubbers. Some of the worrying on here has been borderline bed wetter stuff and completely unnecessary. The squad looks in good enough shape to be competitive and with a couple of additions could really push on, we still have more or less a month left to make those additions and we are far from being the only side at this level who is still looking to strengthen. We got some key bits of business done reasonably early, Taylor, Hirst and Hutchinson have all spent a good amount of preseason with the squad, and we have a very settled group of players who know each other and the way we play very well. We only need a couple more signings, imo, another CB option for sure and a versatile forward ideally, although I wouldn't lose any sleep if we only got the CB to be honest. If Clarke is out for a while, we'll also need cover at RB. That aside, all is well and it's a season to look forward to. |  |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:50 - Aug 3 with 1243 views | pointofblue |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:43 - Aug 3 by Herbivore |
Very sensible post, Dubbers. Some of the worrying on here has been borderline bed wetter stuff and completely unnecessary. The squad looks in good enough shape to be competitive and with a couple of additions could really push on, we still have more or less a month left to make those additions and we are far from being the only side at this level who is still looking to strengthen. We got some key bits of business done reasonably early, Taylor, Hirst and Hutchinson have all spent a good amount of preseason with the squad, and we have a very settled group of players who know each other and the way we play very well. We only need a couple more signings, imo, another CB option for sure and a versatile forward ideally, although I wouldn't lose any sleep if we only got the CB to be honest. If Clarke is out for a while, we'll also need cover at RB. That aside, all is well and it's a season to look forward to. |
A decent centre back and striker in, and I'll be happy. I am concerned about saying "there's a month left", recalling last summer where we were left scrambling for a crock and someone McKenna didn't want on Transfer Deadline Day, meaning we had to get January spot on to get into the top two. Luckily we did. | |
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| Ta on 09:53 - Aug 3 with 1243 views | Dyland |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:48 - Aug 3 by jayessess |
Sunderland's first starting line-up last season involved only one debutant, Daniel Ballard, who then broke his foot 9 minutes into their third game and didn't re-appear until Late December.
One other debutant, Ellis Simms, then a loanee unproven in the Championship, came on as a substitute and was the only other new* signing to start a game for them in August.
*They did also make Jack Clarke a permanent signing, after having him on loan the previous season. |
Telling, possibly.
COYFB | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:55 - Aug 3 with 1236 views | Herbivore |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:50 - Aug 3 by pointofblue |
A decent centre back and striker in, and I'll be happy. I am concerned about saying "there's a month left", recalling last summer where we were left scrambling for a crock and someone McKenna didn't want on Transfer Deadline Day, meaning we had to get January spot on to get into the top two. Luckily we did. |
Loads of clubs are still looking to do business, there's barely been any movement in the Prem and at our level especially a lot of business will be dependent on Prem sides doing deals before they let players go. It's more important that we sign players who will be a good fit than to get bodies in the door early who don't meet our requirements. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:58 - Aug 3 with 1220 views | hype313 |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:55 - Aug 3 by Herbivore |
Loads of clubs are still looking to do business, there's barely been any movement in the Prem and at our level especially a lot of business will be dependent on Prem sides doing deals before they let players go. It's more important that we sign players who will be a good fit than to get bodies in the door early who don't meet our requirements. |
It's been notably quiet further up the leagues on transfers, City only made one signing, Wes Ham are yet to sign anyone, it seems to be clubs adding 1-2 players rather than a job lot.
Although I fully expect a flurry in the final two weeks. |  |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 10:06 - Aug 3 with 1205 views | pointofblue |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:55 - Aug 3 by Herbivore |
Loads of clubs are still looking to do business, there's barely been any movement in the Prem and at our level especially a lot of business will be dependent on Prem sides doing deals before they let players go. It's more important that we sign players who will be a good fit than to get bodies in the door early who don't meet our requirements. |
I agree, which is exactly what we did last summer. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 10:23 - Aug 3 with 1193 views | Whos_blue |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 09:43 - Aug 3 by Herbivore |
Very sensible post, Dubbers. Some of the worrying on here has been borderline bed wetter stuff and completely unnecessary. The squad looks in good enough shape to be competitive and with a couple of additions could really push on, we still have more or less a month left to make those additions and we are far from being the only side at this level who is still looking to strengthen. We got some key bits of business done reasonably early, Taylor, Hirst and Hutchinson have all spent a good amount of preseason with the squad, and we have a very settled group of players who know each other and the way we play very well. We only need a couple more signings, imo, another CB option for sure and a versatile forward ideally, although I wouldn't lose any sleep if we only got the CB to be honest. If Clarke is out for a while, we'll also need cover at RB. That aside, all is well and it's a season to look forward to. |
Pretty much this for me too.
My personal target is top 10, hopefully 8th.
I see no reason why we can't achieve this.
In some ways our style of play had too much flair for div 3 football and we sometimes weren't able to roll our sleeves up and do the dirty work, but credit to KM and his unwavering belief in his footballing ethos.
He is no fool and I think we're experiencing something special at the club, but certainly a milestone in his likely excellent career.
Ashton is Ashton. A very shrewed business man who's certainly gained my trust.
I can't wait to get started and you'll see no bedwetting from me. I've always been in it for the long haul.
UT. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Agreed on 11:28 - Aug 3 with 1127 views | Dyland |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 08:01 - Aug 3 by BudapestByBlimp |
CoastaBlue and Vic have already addressed your last paragraph, I'll have a go at your second.
Hurst scooped up players who had done well in League One and Two and tried to make them into a fully functioning team immediately in the Championship. McKenna has taken players with plenty of Championship experience ( mostly 30+ games) and moulded them into a successful squad with a playing identity in League One. The only place that I could see that lacks experience is Central Defence and I think it's pretty obvious we are trying to strengthen there.
As people are saying any progression would be a good season, top half and I'd be happy, but I really think we are better than that. Mostly because of the way we are now functioning as a team, I think we'll finish 5th this season. |
Except I'm not even thinking about where we finish. Not yet anyway. I'm not feeling nervous at all, and not thinking we'll do especially well even. I simply don't know... however, I do know we have ambitious owners and an excellent manager, and trust them to do what they can to be successful. I may be imagining it but re transfers, some posters seem to forget there are other clubs with ambitions to do well too. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 11:47 - Aug 3 with 1113 views | LankHenners |
Think that's fair enough generally but agree with others who have pointed out we're still clearly light in a couple of areas and the club's ambitions are such that they'll be disappointed to go into the first game of the season without having made any more additions. Obviously things happen, we're not the only club going for players, other clubs will have more wiggle room to spend plus will be seen as more attractive destinations than a newly-promoted club.
Part of the problem with fan reaction, on here at least, is that there are the usual muppets spouting a load of drivel or just going back into the negative position they took up for almost the entirety of last season which was incredibly tedious. Makes it hard to try and have a sensible discussion.
My main concern is that, as above, we could do with some reinforcements and last summer when we wanted a couple more players we ended up signing two on deadline day who most likely will never play for us again. Right now we're in injury to the backline away from it looking pretty ropey and not convinced we have the strength in depth we want up top either. |  |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) (n/t) on 12:10 - Aug 3 with 1095 views | BigCommon |
[Post edited 3 Aug 2023 16:23]
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 12:24 - Aug 3 with 1084 views | SomethingBlue |
Good post that I think reflects the reality. Mid-table, somewhere between 9th and 16th, looks likely to me with the current squad. As long as the football is good, the games entertaining and the evidence there that we can keep building year by year, hopefully the fans will be OK with that and the vibe around the stadium positive. Then you look to sell a Davis or similar for decent money, improve the squad along those lines, basically do what Coventry look to be doing very well.
The injuries are my big concern at the moment, Clarke for a few months would be a big miss if that proves the case, he really gets us up the pitch and breaks lines from deep in a way Donacien (for all his good qualities) can't, it makes a real difference.
Expect we'll sign a few more and, who knows, maybe that'll shift the dial but at the moment I see a very well-drilled team competing soundly in most games and getting enough positive results for comfortable mid table. [Post edited 3 Aug 2023 12:25]
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 12:31 - Aug 3 with 1062 views | jayessess |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 12:24 - Aug 3 by SomethingBlue |
Good post that I think reflects the reality. Mid-table, somewhere between 9th and 16th, looks likely to me with the current squad. As long as the football is good, the games entertaining and the evidence there that we can keep building year by year, hopefully the fans will be OK with that and the vibe around the stadium positive. Then you look to sell a Davis or similar for decent money, improve the squad along those lines, basically do what Coventry look to be doing very well.
The injuries are my big concern at the moment, Clarke for a few months would be a big miss if that proves the case, he really gets us up the pitch and breaks lines from deep in a way Donacien (for all his good qualities) can't, it makes a real difference.
Expect we'll sign a few more and, who knows, maybe that'll shift the dial but at the moment I see a very well-drilled team competing soundly in most games and getting enough positive results for comfortable mid table. [Post edited 3 Aug 2023 12:25]
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Medium term reality for non-parachute clubs, non-basket-case, Championship clubs, isn't it?
Unless you catch lightning in a bottle, either as a collective (Luton) or individual recruitment (Coventry), you'll finish somewhere in the middle group, with where you finish determined within it by a mixture of coaching, luck with injuries and fine margins in games.
We're probably above average for budget within that middle group, which buys you a few more spins of the roulette wheel for transfers and a bit more time to keep the special ones you do recruit, but isn't that transformative. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 16:10 - Aug 3 with 960 views | TalkingBlues |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 06:04 - Aug 3 by Coastalblue |
The “I’d be happy to consolidate and finish mid table in our first season back” argument by some, is a view that is not shared by our owners, or McK, or Ashton, we are being funded heavily for one purpose and that’s to reach the Premier League, and to reach it yesterday.
That's not the message that has been preached though, I thought we were all rather gladdened that the message was more one of long term investment and steady building year on year with the ultimate aim of established Prem. I certainly don't think Prem yesterday is the desire or plan.
Another season of solid adbancement and growth would meet the remit I'd argue, though of course they'd want to be challenging as we all would. |
The message, from the very outset, has been to get to the Premier League and to do so as quickly as possible. That message has been repeated many times, with all senior parties stating how ambitious everyone at the club is, they aren’t looking to consolidate, they are looking for another promotion and we were meant to be making additions this summer, in order to build on momentum and help achieve that target, so far we’ve come up short on recruitment, but the target is 100% promotion, again.
No idea why anybody would think the target is anything else. [Post edited 3 Aug 2023 16:14]
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 16:49 - Aug 3 with 938 views | Herbivore |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 16:10 - Aug 3 by TalkingBlues |
The message, from the very outset, has been to get to the Premier League and to do so as quickly as possible. That message has been repeated many times, with all senior parties stating how ambitious everyone at the club is, they aren’t looking to consolidate, they are looking for another promotion and we were meant to be making additions this summer, in order to build on momentum and help achieve that target, so far we’ve come up short on recruitment, but the target is 100% promotion, again.
No idea why anybody would think the target is anything else. [Post edited 3 Aug 2023 16:14]
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Can you point me to anywhere where anyone involved with the club has said that this season "the target is 100% promotion". I haven't see anyone say anything of the sort. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 17:44 - Aug 3 with 882 views | BlueBadger |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 07:19 - Aug 3 by Swansea_Blue |
Agree to that. The question is have we enhanced the squad? As in, improved in certain positions? I’m not sure we have and I was expecting us to. But then the next question is do we actually need to? Given the quality of some players, maybe we don’t need much work at all. Hirst was key, but we had him last year. Taylor should be an improvement on most of our CMs, with room to develop. So it’s only really Taylor. The others I see as squad depth.
Part of me was expecting us to punch above Championship weight much as we punched above League 1, but maybe that’s unrealistic and unneeded. |
I'm not sure that we're going to attract fringe-of-the-squad Premium/top end Champ players this window, tbh as we're not yet an 'established but ambitious' Championship club. This window is, in my mind, the one to get us to that stage of the plan. |  |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 17:48 - Aug 3 with 879 views | pointofblue |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 17:44 - Aug 3 by BlueBadger |
I'm not sure that we're going to attract fringe-of-the-squad Premium/top end Champ players this window, tbh as we're not yet an 'established but ambitious' Championship club. This window is, in my mind, the one to get us to that stage of the plan. |
The thing which gets me is we seemed to find it easier to attract Championship standard players whilst we were in League One. I assume part of that may be down to the difference in FFP rules. | |
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| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 18:02 - Aug 3 with 854 views | jayessess |
| My take on our squad state and the Summer transfer window (so far) on 17:48 - Aug 3 by pointofblue |
The thing which gets me is we seemed to find it easier to attract Championship standard players whilst we were in League One. I assume part of that may be down to the difference in FFP rules. |
It's not FFP (which also applies in L1), we just aren't really attempting to shop in the same markets.
In January we signed 4 players who'd been at Championship clubs for the first half of the season. Hirst and Luongo hadn't been involved at Blackburn or Boro, Alex Neil basically said he didn't want any of Stoke's loanees to stay after January and Wigan were basically half way relegated and skint when we went after Broadhead.
In the Summer 2022 the Championship players we got were Ball (released by QPR), Keogh (virtually released by Blackpool), TJJ, Davis (never really broke into the first team during loan spells at Blackpool and Bournemouth), Harness, Leigh, Ahadme and Camara were all L1 players.
The players who we seem to have missed out on this Summer - Simms, Trusty, McNally - are all of the same type, young players, owned by Premier League teams, off the back of recent successful loan spells in the Championship, where they started the majority of games. We've not, to my knowledge, gone to much lengths to look at players unwanted by other Championship teams (well, Hirst, I suppose) or players whose recent Championship loans were mixed. | |
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