| Bunch of nutters 14:04 - Aug 27 with 8690 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ulez-protest-tooting-broadway-sadiq-khan-
So many things wrong with this lot. People are up in arms about polluted air, about 4000 people dying a year due to pollution, then you bring something in to stop it and they're wailing that they can't drive to the shops now FFS.
Every argument in this piece is nonsensical.
“It is saying you are ‘OK to drive your polluting car if you give me £12.50’." - err, no, you're missing the point, the charge is to dissuade people from driving polluting cars.
“It is all about money, otherwise they would ban petrol and polluting cars." - LOL, you really would be up in arms if Khan said, "Ok then, we're banning petrol and polluting cars."
“You drive for your shopping to the nearest supermarket and to go about 150m down the road will now cost £12.50." - You're driving somewhere that's 150m away and you don't see a problem here?!
"We all want clean air for our children and generations, but you’ve gone in too far, too deep and it’s going to cost people’s lives and livelihoods." - you want clean air but you don't want it to impact YOU, basically. Pollution is literally costing people's lives. There is a scrapage scheme, which has been extended, to help not cost people's lives/livelihoods. Just exaggerated/emotive nonsense.
I have a mate who had asthma, who moved out of London to the seaside. Her asthma has completely cleared up. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Bunch of nutters on 09:52 - Aug 28 with 1665 views | StokieBlue |
| Bunch of nutters on 09:04 - Aug 28 by DJR |
There are 20 mph zones where I live on roads which are what I would regards as main roads, rather than side streets, and I must admit I find it difficult to drive that slowly on such roads. That being the case, I have wondered if 25 mph would be more appropriate. |
The 20mph limit wasn't set to make it harder for people to drive, it's because it has been proven to lower the number of collisions and this fatalities. Setting it to 25mph would miss the whole point of the speed decrease.
It's annoying of course as I find when I drive but it's not for the convenience of the driver so I'm not sure why you think it should be faster so it's more appropriate for the driver.
As a driver and a cyclist in London I'm happy that 20mph on the roads is a sensible speed. Many end up going 30mph anyway but without the lower limit that would likely be 35 or even 40mph. Many will always push the limit to get somewhere 60 seconds quicker.
SB |  | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 10:39 - Aug 28 with 1614 views | eireblue |
Isn’t science great, you can usually find stuff to help back up an opinion or bias.
"However, the dust in subway systems is quite different from PM2.5 in outdoor air and we do not know whether we can extrapolate these findings to the subway environment. So, we are now studying groups of vulnerable people and TfL staff to understand whether exposure to this type of PM2.5 is harmful."
For Green, this is key. “It is much better that people get on the London Underground than it is for them to get in their car to move around London. That’s because if you're sitting in your car, you're exposed to very high concentrations of vehicle pollutants.
"You’re sitting directly behind the exhaust of the car [in front], so you have a higher exposure than cyclists riding along the road or the pedestrians walking past. And the other thing is you're also polluting the world for everybody else. So, while the car isn’t worse than the tube in the case of PM2.5, it is much worse for other pollutants like nitrous oxides.”
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/london-underground-air-pollution
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/spikes-in-air-pollution-cause-124-extra-heart- |  | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 10:54 - Aug 28 with 1604 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bunch of nutters on 09:52 - Aug 28 by StokieBlue |
The 20mph limit wasn't set to make it harder for people to drive, it's because it has been proven to lower the number of collisions and this fatalities. Setting it to 25mph would miss the whole point of the speed decrease.
It's annoying of course as I find when I drive but it's not for the convenience of the driver so I'm not sure why you think it should be faster so it's more appropriate for the driver.
As a driver and a cyclist in London I'm happy that 20mph on the roads is a sensible speed. Many end up going 30mph anyway but without the lower limit that would likely be 35 or even 40mph. Many will always push the limit to get somewhere 60 seconds quicker.
SB |
It has also been demonstrated that most urban traffic averages below 20mph during the day, anyway. So they are literally swapping cars accelerating up to 30 before slamming the brakes at a light for a more considered way of driving. It's a lot more Zen at 20mph.
Most of Scotland seems to have 20mph as standard, even in a lot of villages.
As well as the difference in child fatalities, in particular, at 20mph impact v 30mph, which is the biggest reason, there is an attempt here to level the playing field between bikes and cars. Electric bikes are capped at 20mph as standard. Over time more people will make their commute that way, because it is way cheaper, healthier and actually quicker for many commutes where there are cycle paths. |  | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 10:58 - Aug 28 with 1600 views | StokieBlue |
| Bunch of nutters on 10:54 - Aug 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
It has also been demonstrated that most urban traffic averages below 20mph during the day, anyway. So they are literally swapping cars accelerating up to 30 before slamming the brakes at a light for a more considered way of driving. It's a lot more Zen at 20mph.
Most of Scotland seems to have 20mph as standard, even in a lot of villages.
As well as the difference in child fatalities, in particular, at 20mph impact v 30mph, which is the biggest reason, there is an attempt here to level the playing field between bikes and cars. Electric bikes are capped at 20mph as standard. Over time more people will make their commute that way, because it is way cheaper, healthier and actually quicker for many commutes where there are cycle paths. |
Unfortunately, it seems a very large number of eBikes in London have had the 20mph cap removed.
Frequently when I am cycling to work I'll have someone on an eBike absolute bolt past me at a speed that has to be well over 30mph and they aren't even peddling. The fact they do this in a separate cycle lane in what is essentially a motorised vehicle is both annoying and dangerous.
SB | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 11:28 - Aug 28 with 1573 views | jayessess |
Is there a little bit of entitlement in car culture?
Just seems to me sometimes like people imagine driving a car wherever they want to go for whatever price they think reasonable as a kind of basic human right. Then experience anything that curtails that "right" as something oppressive, totalitarian even.
But lots of people don't have cars, both across the world and in the UK (22% of households). As recently as 50 years ago, half of UK households didn't have them. Cars are ultimately a convenience, a consumer product to make people's lives easier. It's not some fundamental aspect of human freedom and don't get why discussions about re-organising society so car use is slightly discouraged or managed differently need to have this wild, existential tone. |  |
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| Bunch of nutters on 12:14 - Aug 28 with 1524 views | Trequartista |
I think the 150m away refers to the distance from the home to the first camera, not the supermarket, which may be, say, one mile away. |  |
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| Bunch of nutters on 12:17 - Aug 28 with 1517 views | Churchman |
| Bunch of nutters on 09:35 - Aug 28 by DJR |
I know Peckham and Elephant very well, having driven through them daily on my way from East Dulwich to a parking space on Horse Guards Parade in the days when such things were acceptable.
And talking about central London parking spaces, before the IRA mortar attack on Downing Street in 1991, it used to be possible to park for free on a Saturday evening in King Charles Street between the FCO and the Treasury, something that few people knew about because the road is a dead end. That was very handy if going to the theatre or cinema. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 9:37]
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East Dulwich? You mean Peckham don’t you?
I always say that to annoy people for a laugh. Having worked there I do know the difference. Used to do the A20, Catford, Forest Hill run to Peckham and beyond every day from 1989. In Peckham we’d park in the multi storey car park in Cerise road. We’d ‘look after’ the car park attendant and he’d look after the cars. More than one that wasn’t on his list disappeared, was broken into or mysteriously caught fire. Strange.
You could always find somewhere to park in those days in South London/SW London. Never a problem. Still, that was then and times change.
You certainly can’t park between FCO and Treasury/100PS now. Barrier one end, steps to StJames Park the other! Park illegally anywhere round there and there’s a good chance your vehicle will be towed or blown up.
After 7/7 I was involved in something security related and was shown some footage of a bloke’s lorry that had been parked off Whitehall. The footage caught him in the distance walking towards it as the cab went bang. As the army dude said ‘I’d love to see how explained that one away to his boss’.
Interesting times. |  | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 12:20 - Aug 28 with 1511 views | Trequartista |
| Bunch of nutters on 22:17 - Aug 27 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The key word there is petrol. ULEZ is an attempt to get rid of older diesel cars that were manufactured before a more stringent Euro standard was introduced for diesel vehicle emissions.
My diesel, which I bought in 2015 because it had very good mpg and my wife was just starting a job with lots of regional driving, was registered in July 2015. Only diesel cars registered after September 2015 will be allowed in the Scottish LEZs without penalty.
Gutted, but I can see the greater good here, and will just suck it up. |
Older diesel cars that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown persuaded us all to buy with tax cuts! | |
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| Bunch of nutters on 12:30 - Aug 28 with 1504 views | Trequartista |
| Bunch of nutters on 09:52 - Aug 28 by StokieBlue |
The 20mph limit wasn't set to make it harder for people to drive, it's because it has been proven to lower the number of collisions and this fatalities. Setting it to 25mph would miss the whole point of the speed decrease.
It's annoying of course as I find when I drive but it's not for the convenience of the driver so I'm not sure why you think it should be faster so it's more appropriate for the driver.
As a driver and a cyclist in London I'm happy that 20mph on the roads is a sensible speed. Many end up going 30mph anyway but without the lower limit that would likely be 35 or even 40mph. Many will always push the limit to get somewhere 60 seconds quicker.
SB |
If you based every speed limit on number of collisions and injuries/fatalities, every road in the country would have a 5mph limit so its a question of balance really.
I find it frustrating that in Suffolk, every 20mph limit seems to be on a road of affluent residents with drives and minimal parked cars on the road, whereas built up areas in less affluent areas with nose-to-tail parking along the road, making it much harder to see a child running into the road in time, is 30mph. | |
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| Bunch of nutters on 12:36 - Aug 28 with 1496 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Bunch of nutters on 12:30 - Aug 28 by Trequartista |
If you based every speed limit on number of collisions and injuries/fatalities, every road in the country would have a 5mph limit so its a question of balance really.
I find it frustrating that in Suffolk, every 20mph limit seems to be on a road of affluent residents with drives and minimal parked cars on the road, whereas built up areas in less affluent areas with nose-to-tail parking along the road, making it much harder to see a child running into the road in time, is 30mph. |
Your first line is just hyperbole. The 20mph limit was worked out to save the most lives/injuries but also keep traffic moving.
I don't live in Suffolk so can't comment on if there's any truth in your second bit, but I suspect not. I've seen 20mph limits on all sorts of roads, certainly not only affluent ones, so I'm not sure why Suffolk would be any different. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Bunch of nutters on 12:58 - Aug 28 with 1469 views | stonojnr |
| Bunch of nutters on 10:58 - Aug 28 by StokieBlue |
Unfortunately, it seems a very large number of eBikes in London have had the 20mph cap removed.
Frequently when I am cycling to work I'll have someone on an eBike absolute bolt past me at a speed that has to be well over 30mph and they aren't even peddling. The fact they do this in a separate cycle lane in what is essentially a motorised vehicle is both annoying and dangerous.
SB |
sadly that genie was let out of the bottle before the government caught up with the technology, and I dont see that problem ever going away now. | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 13:04 - Aug 28 with 1463 views | jayessess |
| Bunch of nutters on 12:36 - Aug 28 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Your first line is just hyperbole. The 20mph limit was worked out to save the most lives/injuries but also keep traffic moving.
I don't live in Suffolk so can't comment on if there's any truth in your second bit, but I suspect not. I've seen 20mph limits on all sorts of roads, certainly not only affluent ones, so I'm not sure why Suffolk would be any different. |
There's probably a small nugget of truth in the idea that richer people find it easier to get things they want from local and national governments.
But that would just indicates that lower speed limits in our communities are so desirable that the sharp-elbowed middle classes are forcing the state to implement them! | |
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| Bunch of nutters on 13:09 - Aug 28 with 1459 views | stonojnr |
| Bunch of nutters on 12:30 - Aug 28 by Trequartista |
If you based every speed limit on number of collisions and injuries/fatalities, every road in the country would have a 5mph limit so its a question of balance really.
I find it frustrating that in Suffolk, every 20mph limit seems to be on a road of affluent residents with drives and minimal parked cars on the road, whereas built up areas in less affluent areas with nose-to-tail parking along the road, making it much harder to see a child running into the road in time, is 30mph. |
well ignoring the limit is a limit and not a target, on such roads where there is nose-to-tail parking along the road, making it much harder to see a child running into the road in time, you drive to the conditions, which means slow down.
failing that as we know some peoples feet are welded to the accelerator, the residents can band together and lobby their local councillors to do something about it, I believe most if not all the 20mph zones in residential roads in Suffolk, came about because the residents decided they wanted their road to be a 20mph.
so as an example the council didnt decide to just pick Anglesea Road at random, the local residents campaigned for years to get that limit introduced, lobbied their councillors, one of whom then made it an election pledge, and then it was paid for out of their local highways improvement budget. | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 14:04 - Aug 28 with 1420 views | DJR |
| Bunch of nutters on 12:17 - Aug 28 by Churchman |
East Dulwich? You mean Peckham don’t you?
I always say that to annoy people for a laugh. Having worked there I do know the difference. Used to do the A20, Catford, Forest Hill run to Peckham and beyond every day from 1989. In Peckham we’d park in the multi storey car park in Cerise road. We’d ‘look after’ the car park attendant and he’d look after the cars. More than one that wasn’t on his list disappeared, was broken into or mysteriously caught fire. Strange.
You could always find somewhere to park in those days in South London/SW London. Never a problem. Still, that was then and times change.
You certainly can’t park between FCO and Treasury/100PS now. Barrier one end, steps to StJames Park the other! Park illegally anywhere round there and there’s a good chance your vehicle will be towed or blown up.
After 7/7 I was involved in something security related and was shown some footage of a bloke’s lorry that had been parked off Whitehall. The footage caught him in the distance walking towards it as the cab went bang. As the army dude said ‘I’d love to see how explained that one away to his boss’.
Interesting times. |
I'll have you know I lived at the southern edge of East Dulwich on Underhill Road just before it hits the South Circular!
It was postally East Dulwich but much more akin to Dulwich proper being pretty close to the Grove Pub, Dulwich Common and Dulwich Park, and also the ancient woodland known as Dulwich Woods. It was also not far from the Horniman Museum and so not far from the border with Forest Hill.
Maybe you used Underhill Road on your journey, or instead went down Lordship Lane. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 14:11]
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| Bunch of nutters on 15:09 - Aug 28 with 1383 views | Churchman |
| Bunch of nutters on 14:04 - Aug 28 by DJR |
I'll have you know I lived at the southern edge of East Dulwich on Underhill Road just before it hits the South Circular!
It was postally East Dulwich but much more akin to Dulwich proper being pretty close to the Grove Pub, Dulwich Common and Dulwich Park, and also the ancient woodland known as Dulwich Woods. It was also not far from the Horniman Museum and so not far from the border with Forest Hill.
Maybe you used Underhill Road on your journey, or instead went down Lordship Lane. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 14:11]
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SE22? Underhill Road, Lordship Lane? Know them all - Nah, all Peckham to me 😃. Should all be under SE15.
Been in the Grove pub too.
I seem to remember Thatcher lived in Dulwich village. Is that why you liked her? 🥲😃😂😅
Ok, an insult too far. I stand reprimanded. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 15:13]
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| Bunch of nutters on 15:12 - Aug 28 with 1378 views | DJR |
| Bunch of nutters on 15:09 - Aug 28 by Churchman |
SE22? Underhill Road, Lordship Lane? Know them all - Nah, all Peckham to me 😃. Should all be under SE15.
Been in the Grove pub too.
I seem to remember Thatcher lived in Dulwich village. Is that why you liked her? 🥲😃😂😅
Ok, an insult too far. I stand reprimanded. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 15:13]
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Have you been to a Harvester? | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 15:16 - Aug 28 with 1375 views | Churchman |
| Bunch of nutters on 15:12 - Aug 28 by DJR |
Have you been to a Harvester? |
Combine or beefeater style cheap steak eatery? Neither. Don’t have a Harvester in Rye Lane. They had a McDonalds near the station. Somebody was stabbed in there on my first day working in the area | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 15:31 - Aug 28 with 1359 views | DJR |
| Bunch of nutters on 15:16 - Aug 28 by Churchman |
Combine or beefeater style cheap steak eatery? Neither. Don’t have a Harvester in Rye Lane. They had a McDonalds near the station. Somebody was stabbed in there on my first day working in the area |
Sorry, the Grove was at one time a Harvester as well as a pub, and given the adverts, a friend and I used to joke "Have you ever been to a Harvester?" when we went there for a drink. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 15:32]
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| Bunch of nutters on 16:28 - Aug 28 with 1324 views | Churchman |
| Bunch of nutters on 15:31 - Aug 28 by DJR |
Sorry, the Grove was at one time a Harvester as well as a pub, and given the adverts, a friend and I used to joke "Have you ever been to a Harvester?" when we went there for a drink. [Post edited 28 Aug 2023 15:32]
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I don’t remember it as a Harvester tbh, but the last time I was in it was on my leaving do and memory was obliterated that night! | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 17:53 - Aug 28 with 1284 views | factual_blue |
| Bunch of nutters on 11:28 - Aug 28 by jayessess |
Is there a little bit of entitlement in car culture?
Just seems to me sometimes like people imagine driving a car wherever they want to go for whatever price they think reasonable as a kind of basic human right. Then experience anything that curtails that "right" as something oppressive, totalitarian even.
But lots of people don't have cars, both across the world and in the UK (22% of households). As recently as 50 years ago, half of UK households didn't have them. Cars are ultimately a convenience, a consumer product to make people's lives easier. It's not some fundamental aspect of human freedom and don't get why discussions about re-organising society so car use is slightly discouraged or managed differently need to have this wild, existential tone. |
We've turned them into a means of self-validation.
You are only worthy if you have a Range Rover/Merc/Beamer/tesla. |  |
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| Bunch of nutters on 18:03 - Aug 28 with 1284 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Bunch of nutters on 11:28 - Aug 28 by jayessess |
Is there a little bit of entitlement in car culture?
Just seems to me sometimes like people imagine driving a car wherever they want to go for whatever price they think reasonable as a kind of basic human right. Then experience anything that curtails that "right" as something oppressive, totalitarian even.
But lots of people don't have cars, both across the world and in the UK (22% of households). As recently as 50 years ago, half of UK households didn't have them. Cars are ultimately a convenience, a consumer product to make people's lives easier. It's not some fundamental aspect of human freedom and don't get why discussions about re-organising society so car use is slightly discouraged or managed differently need to have this wild, existential tone. |
My only experience of this ULEZ business is the sister in law and husband who are at the other extreme. They’ve a circa 17 year old small car, but it’s diesel so doesn’t qualify and they’re self employed with irregular work relying on the car. They can’t afford ULEZ every day and can’t use public transport easily due to the nature of their work and late hours/where they have to go. They hate this expansion - it’s nothing but an extra cost to them, yet I bet by keeping and maintaining an old car they have a fraction of the carbon footprint of people who buy a new Tesla every 3 years (yes, I know that air quality is the justification). |  |
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| Bunch of nutters on 19:27 - Aug 28 with 1247 views | eireblue |
| Bunch of nutters on 17:53 - Aug 28 by factual_blue |
We've turned them into a means of self-validation.
You are only worthy if you have a Range Rover/Merc/Beamer/tesla. |
Yep, only way to rebel is getting on a bicycle.  | | | |
| Bunch of nutters on 19:51 - Aug 28 with 1225 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Bunch of nutters on 18:03 - Aug 28 by Swansea_Blue |
My only experience of this ULEZ business is the sister in law and husband who are at the other extreme. They’ve a circa 17 year old small car, but it’s diesel so doesn’t qualify and they’re self employed with irregular work relying on the car. They can’t afford ULEZ every day and can’t use public transport easily due to the nature of their work and late hours/where they have to go. They hate this expansion - it’s nothing but an extra cost to them, yet I bet by keeping and maintaining an old car they have a fraction of the carbon footprint of people who buy a new Tesla every 3 years (yes, I know that air quality is the justification). |
Can they not do the scrapage scheme and get reimbursed? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Bunch of nutters on 20:41 - Aug 28 with 1205 views | Trequartista |
| Bunch of nutters on 12:36 - Aug 28 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Your first line is just hyperbole. The 20mph limit was worked out to save the most lives/injuries but also keep traffic moving.
I don't live in Suffolk so can't comment on if there's any truth in your second bit, but I suspect not. I've seen 20mph limits on all sorts of roads, certainly not only affluent ones, so I'm not sure why Suffolk would be any different. |
Lol great argument, “I don’t know the facts but I’m right anyway” | |
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| Bunch of nutters on 20:43 - Aug 28 with 1203 views | Trequartista |
| Bunch of nutters on 13:04 - Aug 28 by jayessess |
There's probably a small nugget of truth in the idea that richer people find it easier to get things they want from local and national governments.
But that would just indicates that lower speed limits in our communities are so desirable that the sharp-elbowed middle classes are forcing the state to implement them! |
Or, more directly, the people who make the decisions live in the areas where they are implemented | |
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