| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 08:18 - Sep 8 with 15627 views | DJR |
Following on from a thread which I think Joe started, and speaking as someone only two years off state pension age, the following is a disgrace in terms of generational fairness. The triple lock must go, with additional help targeted at those pensioners who need it, although it should be noted that according to Karl Emerson of the IFS, speaking on the Today Programme this morning, pensioner poverty rates are actually lower than the general population.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/08/triple-lock-could-add-45bn-to-stat
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 18:19]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 15:21 - Sep 9 with 2628 views | DJR |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 11:32 - Sep 9 by OldFart71 |
There seems to be a general march towards blaming pensioners for all the ills that beset the Country. Paying them too much in State pension, bed blocking etc. Let me put you right. Governments of all Party's have had since the end of the second World War to sort this out. They have Births and Deaths records and Census carried out every few years to know how many pensioner they would have to pay by a certain time. Gordon Brown destroyed Final Salary pension schemes by taxing share dividends therefore meaning less going into the fund for future Company pension. The State pension in the UK is much lower than say Germany where a retiring worker will receive 2/3rd of the salary he received when working. The Government has frozen Personal Allownance at £12,570 meaning a pension only receiving a few thousand above SP via maybe another pension or income will be drawn into paying tax. I for instance receive a lower pension than those now retiring and I had to contribute to N.I. for 44 years, now 35. Bed blocking is caused because Convalescent homes were done away with, which allowed those well enough, but not fit to go home somewhere to go. So in essence the fault doesn't lay with "Well off pensioners" it lays firmly at the foot of useless Governments who's MP's only have to be an MP for 13 years to receive a pension. Get second home allowance, a very decent wage and perks such as subsidised food at drinks. |
I don't think anyone is blaming pensioners, or seeking to deprive them of the State Pension.
The fact though is that, because they vote, they exert a larger influence on certain aspects of public policy than is good for the country, or even themselves.
For example, there were proposals by Labour in 2010 and 2015 to begin to fix social care, but these were dressed up as a "death tax" by the right wing media, which resulted in many people (including pensioners) being hostile to them, when it was in the interests of the country as a whole, and older people in particular, to have decent social care. The result is a system where actually getting social care is a lottery, as is the chance of having to sell the family home to pay for it, rather than a system where social care is properly funded, and the (financial) risk is pooled.
And when it comes to the triple lock, there is a danger of its additional cost merely leading to further increases in the state pension age which bear no relationship to life expectancy, which is actually levelling off.
So, as the person who started this thread, my proposal, as a starting point, would be for the triple lock to remain for poorer pensioners, but for, say, inflation to govern the pension increases of wealthier pensioners, thus reducing the costs of the State Pension system.
But, sadly, neither party is willing to even consider this because they think the pensioners won't want it. And the danger is that the result of a rapidly expanding bill for the State Pension will be further deterioration of the NHS and the social care system.
[Post edited 9 Sep 2023 15:30]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 16:34 - Sep 9 with 2585 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Oddly the UK pension is one of the lowest in the civilised world and the ROI for the great unwashed paying into their pension, whether they want to or not is pitiful.
I respectfully suggest that you are talking out of your rear end |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 16:56 - Sep 9 with 2575 views | DJR |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 16:34 - Sep 9 by ElephantintheRoom |
Oddly the UK pension is one of the lowest in the civilised world and the ROI for the great unwashed paying into their pension, whether they want to or not is pitiful.
I respectfully suggest that you are talking out of your rear end |
If that comment is aimed at me, I would happily have a system where there was a minimum income guarantee for pensioners (rather in the same way as Gordon Brown's Pension Credits), set much higher than the State Pension, but that would require people to pay more taxes, something a majority seem unwilling to do.
At the end of the day (and with employers having given up the ghost), we get back what we are prepared to pay in taxes, and most of Europe has higher pensions (and better public services) because they have higher taxes. [Post edited 9 Sep 2023 17:19]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 17:12 - Sep 9 with 2558 views | OldFart71 |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 13:21 - Sep 9 by WeWereZombies |
I fully agree on the convalescent homes point but am fully against you on the taxing of dividends received by pension funds. All Gordon Brown was doing was removing a long standing anomaly, that didn't have a substantial effect on well managed funds, which all Chancellors had been longing to do since the establishment of the Welfare State but only Brown had the courage to go through with. However, once the necessary had been done he was so pilloried by the yellow press that I suspect that held him back from going to the country straight away once he was Prime Minister. Imagine how much better position we would be in if the media had treated him decently and we had avoided the misery of the last thirteen years.
Brown did cock up selling the gold reserves though... |
Before Brown taxed Share Dividends the Tories looked into doing that but decide it wasn't worth the few million quid that they would gain from doing so. Brown came in, taxed dividends and hey presto Final salary pension schemes disappeared. There are many scandals also surrounding pension funds. Maxwell being the main one. Geen after taking millions from BHS sold it to some guy for a £1. He then raided what was left and BHS collapsed living many out of work and I expect less pension than they thought they would get. One of the owners of Debenhams also took millions out of the Company, but because he had left several years before it's demise refuted claims that the collapse had anything to do with him as he said the new owners had plenty of time to turn the business around ? The owner of a pay day loan company that went bust got out of the business a couple of years before it went bust, alledgedly knowing the state of the business. He is now co owner of a major online house selling business of which I believe is also in trouble and is seeking a buyer. Just checked on it, he also sold out for £1. How do any Governments expect people to have faith in putting money into businesses, insurance companies and the like to try to secure a future when skuldgery goes on. The Tories introduce a sort of pension via your company a few years ago to try and get people to put money away for their old age. But it was a half baked idea where company's could offer poor pensions and the worker could opt out also. I fear for those that do not earn enough to make provisions for their old age. I worked until I was 71, but due to age catching up with me health wise I stopped. Believe me when I tell all you young lads and lassies that although I am o.k. financial wise now it is partly due to working hard. I bought my first house and would work 72 hours a week for months on end. When I married my first wife I gave her £10 a week and she had to get a bag of coal out of that. Yes, I am lucky I get a final salary pension. For pensioners that don't around £10-11,000 a year is not much to live on. I know of people who get more than that on benefits. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 17:32 - Sep 9 with 2538 views | DJR |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 17:12 - Sep 9 by OldFart71 |
Before Brown taxed Share Dividends the Tories looked into doing that but decide it wasn't worth the few million quid that they would gain from doing so. Brown came in, taxed dividends and hey presto Final salary pension schemes disappeared. There are many scandals also surrounding pension funds. Maxwell being the main one. Geen after taking millions from BHS sold it to some guy for a £1. He then raided what was left and BHS collapsed living many out of work and I expect less pension than they thought they would get. One of the owners of Debenhams also took millions out of the Company, but because he had left several years before it's demise refuted claims that the collapse had anything to do with him as he said the new owners had plenty of time to turn the business around ? The owner of a pay day loan company that went bust got out of the business a couple of years before it went bust, alledgedly knowing the state of the business. He is now co owner of a major online house selling business of which I believe is also in trouble and is seeking a buyer. Just checked on it, he also sold out for £1. How do any Governments expect people to have faith in putting money into businesses, insurance companies and the like to try to secure a future when skuldgery goes on. The Tories introduce a sort of pension via your company a few years ago to try and get people to put money away for their old age. But it was a half baked idea where company's could offer poor pensions and the worker could opt out also. I fear for those that do not earn enough to make provisions for their old age. I worked until I was 71, but due to age catching up with me health wise I stopped. Believe me when I tell all you young lads and lassies that although I am o.k. financial wise now it is partly due to working hard. I bought my first house and would work 72 hours a week for months on end. When I married my first wife I gave her £10 a week and she had to get a bag of coal out of that. Yes, I am lucky I get a final salary pension. For pensioners that don't around £10-11,000 a year is not much to live on. I know of people who get more than that on benefits. |
This suggests that blaming Brown for the demise of private pensions, while politically expedient and repeated so much that it is taken as gospel, is not really justified.
https://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/factcheck%2Bdid%2Bgordon%2 [Post edited 9 Sep 2023 17:33]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 13:01 - Sep 10 with 2401 views | BlueBadger |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 15:28 - Sep 8 by Leaky |
I just feel if your not happy with your employer just change job |
Lots of people have. That's why we're desperately short of nurses, doctors and teachers, for example. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:13 - Sep 10 with 2379 views | Leaky |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 13:01 - Sep 10 by BlueBadger |
Lots of people have. That's why we're desperately short of nurses, doctors and teachers, for example. |
So should help you get a pay rise, supply & demand its how the system works. |  | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:16 - Sep 10 with 2374 views | chicoazul |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:13 - Sep 10 by Leaky |
So should help you get a pay rise, supply & demand its how the system works. |
If it works why doesn’t it work? |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:37 - Sep 10 with 2355 views | Leaky |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:16 - Sep 10 by chicoazul |
If it works why doesn’t it work? |
Blue Badger I thinks works in the NHS. I have never worked in the public sector apart from a 3 month stint "on loan" to the Ministry of Public Buildings & Works at RAF Chicksands, however that was the cushiest job you could imagine & the most boring. In construction you learn too screw the employer the same way he would screw you. When work is plentiful you go to the highest payer, when work is short you scratch a living, living on the money you aren't in the good times. Or worked cash in hand. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:28 - Sep 10 with 2312 views | Herbivore |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:37 - Sep 10 by Leaky |
Blue Badger I thinks works in the NHS. I have never worked in the public sector apart from a 3 month stint "on loan" to the Ministry of Public Buildings & Works at RAF Chicksands, however that was the cushiest job you could imagine & the most boring. In construction you learn too screw the employer the same way he would screw you. When work is plentiful you go to the highest payer, when work is short you scratch a living, living on the money you aren't in the good times. Or worked cash in hand. |
And how exactly is a nurse or a teacher or a social worker meant to do that? |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:56 - Sep 10 with 2280 views | J2BLUE |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:37 - Sep 10 by Leaky |
Blue Badger I thinks works in the NHS. I have never worked in the public sector apart from a 3 month stint "on loan" to the Ministry of Public Buildings & Works at RAF Chicksands, however that was the cushiest job you could imagine & the most boring. In construction you learn too screw the employer the same way he would screw you. When work is plentiful you go to the highest payer, when work is short you scratch a living, living on the money you aren't in the good times. Or worked cash in hand. |
TL; DR: This is the way it was for me so it should never ever be any better for anyone. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 18:25 - Sep 10 with 2223 views | Bruin56 |
I wouldn’t mind this and I can clearly see the argument but the state pension is I believe the lowest in Europe already and it starts later already I don’t think a race to the bottom is a sound argument | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 18:30 - Sep 10 with 2216 views | DJR |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:28 - Sep 10 by Herbivore |
And how exactly is a nurse or a teacher or a social worker meant to do that? |
Maybe doctors could boost their income by accepting cash in hand to see patients lower down the waiting list. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 21:15 - Sep 10 with 2167 views | BlueBadger |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:13 - Sep 10 by Leaky |
So should help you get a pay rise, supply & demand its how the system works. |
So, you support strike action by NHS workers then, given that pay and conditions are a massive reason for said shortage? | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 21:16 - Sep 10 with 2164 views | BlueBadger |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:37 - Sep 10 by Leaky |
Blue Badger I thinks works in the NHS. I have never worked in the public sector apart from a 3 month stint "on loan" to the Ministry of Public Buildings & Works at RAF Chicksands, however that was the cushiest job you could imagine & the most boring. In construction you learn too screw the employer the same way he would screw you. When work is plentiful you go to the highest payer, when work is short you scratch a living, living on the money you aren't in the good times. Or worked cash in hand. |
I'm not sure that 'defraud your employer to improve your take home' is quite the solution you think it is. | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 07:11 - Sep 11 with 2093 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 21:16 - Sep 10 by BlueBadger |
I'm not sure that 'defraud your employer to improve your take home' is quite the solution you think it is. |
unless you see what agencies have done to destroy the NHS whilst making huge profits — and making life more flexible and profitable for staff. It’s not fraud officially - but it is a scandal that has crept in under the radar.
The locus system hasn’t helped much either - though it is highly profitable for medics who dont want to work much and earn more
However, the real problem with the NHS is the systemic destruction of the care system and outsourcing it to private profit makers | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 07:15 - Sep 11 with 2091 views | chicoazul |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 11:32 - Sep 9 by OldFart71 |
There seems to be a general march towards blaming pensioners for all the ills that beset the Country. Paying them too much in State pension, bed blocking etc. Let me put you right. Governments of all Party's have had since the end of the second World War to sort this out. They have Births and Deaths records and Census carried out every few years to know how many pensioner they would have to pay by a certain time. Gordon Brown destroyed Final Salary pension schemes by taxing share dividends therefore meaning less going into the fund for future Company pension. The State pension in the UK is much lower than say Germany where a retiring worker will receive 2/3rd of the salary he received when working. The Government has frozen Personal Allownance at £12,570 meaning a pension only receiving a few thousand above SP via maybe another pension or income will be drawn into paying tax. I for instance receive a lower pension than those now retiring and I had to contribute to N.I. for 44 years, now 35. Bed blocking is caused because Convalescent homes were done away with, which allowed those well enough, but not fit to go home somewhere to go. So in essence the fault doesn't lay with "Well off pensioners" it lays firmly at the foot of useless Governments who's MP's only have to be an MP for 13 years to receive a pension. Get second home allowance, a very decent wage and perks such as subsidised food at drinks. |
Who voted for them? | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 07:34 - Sep 11 with 2071 views | Herbivore |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 18:30 - Sep 10 by DJR |
Maybe doctors could boost their income by accepting cash in hand to see patients lower down the waiting list. |
And teachers could refuse to teach kids from poor families and only teach those whose families bung them some extra cash on the side. Can't see any issue with that. | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 07:37 - Sep 11 with 2063 views | Churchman |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:37 - Sep 10 by Leaky |
Blue Badger I thinks works in the NHS. I have never worked in the public sector apart from a 3 month stint "on loan" to the Ministry of Public Buildings & Works at RAF Chicksands, however that was the cushiest job you could imagine & the most boring. In construction you learn too screw the employer the same way he would screw you. When work is plentiful you go to the highest payer, when work is short you scratch a living, living on the money you aren't in the good times. Or worked cash in hand. |
Since you have not worked in the public sector, you really aren’t in a position to offer any more comment on it than I am on the construction injury. Which is next to zero.
I’ve no doubt you work very hard, but believe it or not so do people in the public sector. My job was anything but cushy and there were many many people doing a much tougher job than me - especially in places like the NHS, Prison Service, Police to name but three.
I notice that you have worked for cash in hand. Perhaps if you paid what you owed like many of us had to do through PAYE there would be more money for public services and the meagre state pension. If it was up to me, I’d get tax inspector numbers up to 2010 levels, invest more in the supporting technology and go after non-tax payers. |  | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 07:56 - Sep 11 with 2038 views | thebooks |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 11:07 - Sep 8 by thebooks |
Stats on pensioner poverty are interesting (at least to me).
In 1994, 28% of pensioners lived in poverty, which fell to 12% by 2012 (the lowest rate of any group). It’s actually on the rise again (lesson 1: Tories impoverish everyone except the already rich).
The reason pensioners saw reduced rates of poverty was i) the triple lock continuing as other benefits were cut and ii) the cohort enjoying really high home ownership rates and iii) general improvements in government provision under Labour
The reason it's rising again is because home ownership levels are starting to drop, and will continue to do so. And austerity. As has been pointed out here, it's a lot harder to buy a house now, and have it paid off by the time you retire, than it was if you retired 10 years ago.
Removing the triple lock will therefore affect the people who will need it more.
We view pensioners as a group of people with a set of unchanging circumstances (they own homes, they enjoy good pensions etc.), but we will all be pensioners, and the problems we experience now will affect our situations when we retire. |
This popped up over the weekend on rising pensioner poverty:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/10/pensioner-poverty-fear-of-uk-ris |  | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:58 - Sep 11 with 1980 views | DJR |
The report in question is about future retirees and indicates they are likely to be poorer than current retirees.
The figures are stark. Between 2010 and 2019, the proportion of wealth in the UK held by people under 40 fell from 7.53% to 3.98%. In contrast, the proportion of wealth held by those 65 and over increased from 34.23% to an astonishing 50.40%. [Post edited 11 Sep 2023 9:00]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:58 - Sep 11 with 1974 views | DanTheMan |
Does this back up your previous points? It discusses potential rising poverty because people under 40 have little wealth, it's not talking about any immediate impact of adjusting the triple lock as it is.
Property ownership is the key driver for the gap, with under-40s more likely to be renting for longer than previously or owning homes that have not gone up in value as much as larger properties.
The mean net property wealth in this group fell from £13,967 in 2010 to £11,450 in 2019 (although the median was £0 in both years), while in the 40-64 and 65-plus groups there were large rises.
The older groups also recorded sizeable increases in pension wealth. The figures suggest a growing threat of pensioner poverty if current trends continue.
...
The ILC’s research into longevity is being backed by the insurer Aviva. Doug Brown, the chief executive of Aviva UK & Ireland Life, said: “Financial pressures are growing and affecting all generations; however, the youngest workers are in a particularly vulnerable position when it comes to saving for their retirement. With lower overall wealth today than the equivalent generation had a decade ago, this is concerning.” |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:20 - Sep 11 with 1947 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:06 - Sep 8 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Pensions should be means tested, there are many wealthy pensioners BUT it’s a miserly amount for those with no other income, especially over the last 18 months where most of it is eaten up on not freezing to death in their homes over winter.
Also worth noting that amount is less than-
-money siphoned off to pals for sh1te PPE, yachts for models, and track and trace
-half of the amount this country spends on interest each year simply servicing our debt. |
For the younger posters, can you explain what a home is? |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 13:41 - Sep 11 with 1830 views | thebooks |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:58 - Sep 11 by DanTheMan |
Does this back up your previous points? It discusses potential rising poverty because people under 40 have little wealth, it's not talking about any immediate impact of adjusting the triple lock as it is.
Property ownership is the key driver for the gap, with under-40s more likely to be renting for longer than previously or owning homes that have not gone up in value as much as larger properties.
The mean net property wealth in this group fell from £13,967 in 2010 to £11,450 in 2019 (although the median was £0 in both years), while in the 40-64 and 65-plus groups there were large rises.
The older groups also recorded sizeable increases in pension wealth. The figures suggest a growing threat of pensioner poverty if current trends continue.
...
The ILC’s research into longevity is being backed by the insurer Aviva. Doug Brown, the chief executive of Aviva UK & Ireland Life, said: “Financial pressures are growing and affecting all generations; however, the youngest workers are in a particularly vulnerable position when it comes to saving for their retirement. With lower overall wealth today than the equivalent generation had a decade ago, this is concerning.” |
I think so. My broad point is that approaching this by removing protections on how much the state pension is worth will have an effect on people who won't have many assets/a paid-off mortgage when they retire.
Despite the triple lock, UK pension provision is already low compared to the rest of Europe. This will make it lower when people need it more.
While the current (or rather, recent) cohort of pensioners may have enjoyed lower levels of poverty than other sectors of the population, that won't always be the case. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 13:17 - Sep 12 with 1730 views | Leaky |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:28 - Sep 10 by Herbivore |
And how exactly is a nurse or a teacher or a social worker meant to do that? |
Become a Brickie | | | |
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