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Following on from a thread which I think Joe started, and speaking as someone only two years off state pension age, the following is a disgrace in terms of generational fairness. The triple lock must go, with additional help targeted at those pensioners who need it, although it should be noted that according to Karl Emerson of the IFS, speaking on the Today Programme this morning, pensioner poverty rates are actually lower than the general population.
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 15:44 - Sep 8 by Leaky
Well I worked in construction most of my life. For most of us in the building trade it was just a way of life.
A lot of things are a way of life, but it doesn’t necessarily make it right or a reason to retain things as they are. The trade unions came about through the bravery of people in the late 19c, as did universal suffrage in the early 20c. Does anyone think they’d be better off had those battles not been fought and won? The people the tories represent would be, but the rest? Of course not.
Everyone should join a Union if they can. It’s the only protection they have. Yes, it’s inadequate, yes it can be ineffectual and wrong in some of the fights it picks, but it’s something. Many people don’t have access to a union, are self employed, work for a small company where it isn’t a realistic option. I get that having worked different environments.
However, lack of access for some is no reason to extend that to everybody. That’s the Tory wet dream as their assault on Unions since their inception demonstrates.
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Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:12 - Sep 8 with 2107 views
Not the one I looked at - but does highlight what is being forecast. We already have birth rates less than 2 in most of the world - and that means that in say 30 years time a major shift in the proportion of pensionable age people.
Throw in that we are living longer - and it all means a massive change in the proportion of elderly in our population.
As an aside - the far right are using the falling birth rates and increased migration (which is how we are filling the gap) as the basis for their conspiracy to argue we (by which I mean white Brits) are being outbred and will be in the minority at some point. There is some truth to the increasing numbers of non whites in the UK - but I guess where I am coming from isn't in seeing that as a negative - rather as a necessity if we are to limit the economic damage of falling birth rates.
We need people - to do jobs, to pay taxes, to have babies - so immigration really is part of the answer for me - albeit you'll rarely hear a politician state it.
Found it - behind a paywall I think. Article is related to investing - but all the lessons are relevant to the debate re the sustainability of our pension system into the future, albeit I think it is some way off becoming unsustainable if that makes sense.
"Other economic powerhouses in the Asia-Pacific region are also facing demographic tests. South Korea has had the lowest fertility rate in the world over the past decade, and as of last year the average number of children expected to be born per woman had fallen to 0.78 — well adrift of the 2.1 ratio necessary to sustain a country’s population.
Japan, meanwhile, currently has the highest percentage of citizens aged 65 and over – 28 per cent and rising. That represents three times the global average, but the OECD estimates that 29 countries and territories will have a greater percentage of seniors than Japan by 2050."
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:06 - Sep 8 by Churchman
A lot of things are a way of life, but it doesn’t necessarily make it right or a reason to retain things as they are. The trade unions came about through the bravery of people in the late 19c, as did universal suffrage in the early 20c. Does anyone think they’d be better off had those battles not been fought and won? The people the tories represent would be, but the rest? Of course not.
Everyone should join a Union if they can. It’s the only protection they have. Yes, it’s inadequate, yes it can be ineffectual and wrong in some of the fights it picks, but it’s something. Many people don’t have access to a union, are self employed, work for a small company where it isn’t a realistic option. I get that having worked different environments.
However, lack of access for some is no reason to extend that to everybody. That’s the Tory wet dream as their assault on Unions since their inception demonstrates.
I'm curious as to whether the anti-union folk still work weekends and refuse sick pay and paid leave as a matter of principle.
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 14:33 - Sep 8 by WeWereZombies
Couple of things, small error (which I think you have spotted) in the thread title - the £45 billion additional cost is projected for 2050, not 2020...
And that cost is what the addition will have risen to, not what it is every year for the intervening twenty seven years.
Furthermore the Institute of Fiscal Studies have given quite a wide margin of error for their workings, The Guardian have picked up the higher end of this but the low end is five billion pounds sterling.
And I think the five to forty five is in today's money so it might not look so much if we experience raging inflation and/or significant devaluation in the meantime.
Yes, I rather rushed my post this morning, and have corrected the mistake in the title.
And all the other points you make are well worth higlighting.
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 19:16]
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Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 18:33 - Sep 8 with 1992 views
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 16:06 - Sep 8 by Churchman
A lot of things are a way of life, but it doesn’t necessarily make it right or a reason to retain things as they are. The trade unions came about through the bravery of people in the late 19c, as did universal suffrage in the early 20c. Does anyone think they’d be better off had those battles not been fought and won? The people the tories represent would be, but the rest? Of course not.
Everyone should join a Union if they can. It’s the only protection they have. Yes, it’s inadequate, yes it can be ineffectual and wrong in some of the fights it picks, but it’s something. Many people don’t have access to a union, are self employed, work for a small company where it isn’t a realistic option. I get that having worked different environments.
However, lack of access for some is no reason to extend that to everybody. That’s the Tory wet dream as their assault on Unions since their inception demonstrates.
Well this went well, Herbivore made what I'm sure was a tongue in cheek post about euthanising pensioners. I replied having seen his avatar that it should apply to people joining unions, this was equally tongue cheek. some of you are up your rectums with politics you can't take some banter back. By the way my uncle was a shop steward at Ransome & Rapier.
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Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 20:02 - Sep 8 with 1933 views
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:48 - Sep 8 by thebooks
Hmm, not sure why anyone would advocate for reducing pensions, especially when private provision is so poor. We’ll all be pensioners one day. It’s just a race to the bottom that encourages a “but there’s no money left” narrative, and sets one part of the population against another.
If pensioner poverty rates are lower than the rest of the population the answer to that “problem” isn’t to impoverish pensioners.
I agree with the sentiment but pensioners have no exposure to interest rates, no exposure to commuting costs and have their income shielded from inflation via the triple lock. They can also manage their discretionary spend and get a load of concessionary pricing too.
The state pension is very generous but I also appreciate employers should have historically taken more of the burden and less of the state.
I'm not sure what the answer is but the people I know on the state pension have no debt and have at least 5 holidays a year. Maybe they've earned it etc but the balance feels a bit off.
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 10:28 - Sep 8 by swede
Please stop perpetuating the myth that young people are providing for "elders who've had more comfy lives than they will ever be able to dream of". For most people of my generation this is simply not true.
Yes, further education was free, but I still could not take up a place as I had to get a job to support my mother and siblings.
Yes, I bought my first house for £13K, but I was only bringing home £49 per week. That cheap home was a 3 bed terrace with no heating, bathroom or inside toilet. I spent every free hour renovating it.
When my children were young, I could not afford a caravan holiday in Lowestoft yet alone ever dream of going abroad. We did without.
Meals out and takeaways were simply unknown. They never happened.
I had to miss 12 years of going to Portman Road as my children needed to be clothed and fed as a priority.
I am very soon due to collect my state pension after working for almost 50 years. I will still not be living in luxury, nor do I aspire to it. But without a state pension propping up my meagre private pension, I would not survive.
All my life I have learned to be content with what I have and not spend recklessly what I do not have. It is a lesson many of the younger generation would do well to learn too.
I’m sure you were “content with what you had” because you didn’t have to “spend recklessly” on housing, which is now twice as expensive today.
Sick of seeing this patronising rubbish being aimed at my generation yet again.
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 22:50 - Sep 8 by tractordownsouth
I’m sure you were “content with what you had” because you didn’t have to “spend recklessly” on housing, which is now twice as expensive today.
Sick of seeing this patronising rubbish being aimed at my generation yet again.
Yep. That £49 a week take home means their house was about four times their salary. To afford an average house that's four times your salary now you'd need to be earning close to £70k a year.
Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 23:26 - Sep 8 by Herbivore
Yep. That £49 a week take home means their house was about four times their salary. To afford an average house that's four times your salary now you'd need to be earning close to £70k a year.
Yep. Some nerve telling people my age to be “content with what we have” when realistically I’m going to have to live with my parents until i’m in my late twenties if I want to afford anywhere to buy, and I’m one of the luckier ones.
There seems to be a general march towards blaming pensioners for all the ills that beset the Country. Paying them too much in State pension, bed blocking etc. Let me put you right. Governments of all Party's have had since the end of the second World War to sort this out. They have Births and Deaths records and Census carried out every few years to know how many pensioner they would have to pay by a certain time. Gordon Brown destroyed Final Salary pension schemes by taxing share dividends therefore meaning less going into the fund for future Company pension. The State pension in the UK is much lower than say Germany where a retiring worker will receive 2/3rd of the salary he received when working. The Government has frozen Personal Allownance at £12,570 meaning a pension only receiving a few thousand above SP via maybe another pension or income will be drawn into paying tax. I for instance receive a lower pension than those now retiring and I had to contribute to N.I. for 44 years, now 35. Bed blocking is caused because Convalescent homes were done away with, which allowed those well enough, but not fit to go home somewhere to go. So in essence the fault doesn't lay with "Well off pensioners" it lays firmly at the foot of useless Governments who's MP's only have to be an MP for 13 years to receive a pension. Get second home allowance, a very decent wage and perks such as subsidised food at drinks.
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Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 11:35 - Sep 9 with 1771 views
Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 11:32 - Sep 9 by OldFart71
There seems to be a general march towards blaming pensioners for all the ills that beset the Country. Paying them too much in State pension, bed blocking etc. Let me put you right. Governments of all Party's have had since the end of the second World War to sort this out. They have Births and Deaths records and Census carried out every few years to know how many pensioner they would have to pay by a certain time. Gordon Brown destroyed Final Salary pension schemes by taxing share dividends therefore meaning less going into the fund for future Company pension. The State pension in the UK is much lower than say Germany where a retiring worker will receive 2/3rd of the salary he received when working. The Government has frozen Personal Allownance at £12,570 meaning a pension only receiving a few thousand above SP via maybe another pension or income will be drawn into paying tax. I for instance receive a lower pension than those now retiring and I had to contribute to N.I. for 44 years, now 35. Bed blocking is caused because Convalescent homes were done away with, which allowed those well enough, but not fit to go home somewhere to go. So in essence the fault doesn't lay with "Well off pensioners" it lays firmly at the foot of useless Governments who's MP's only have to be an MP for 13 years to receive a pension. Get second home allowance, a very decent wage and perks such as subsidised food at drinks.
Absolutely right!
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Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 12:32 - Sep 9 with 1745 views
Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 11:32 - Sep 9 by OldFart71
There seems to be a general march towards blaming pensioners for all the ills that beset the Country. Paying them too much in State pension, bed blocking etc. Let me put you right. Governments of all Party's have had since the end of the second World War to sort this out. They have Births and Deaths records and Census carried out every few years to know how many pensioner they would have to pay by a certain time. Gordon Brown destroyed Final Salary pension schemes by taxing share dividends therefore meaning less going into the fund for future Company pension. The State pension in the UK is much lower than say Germany where a retiring worker will receive 2/3rd of the salary he received when working. The Government has frozen Personal Allownance at £12,570 meaning a pension only receiving a few thousand above SP via maybe another pension or income will be drawn into paying tax. I for instance receive a lower pension than those now retiring and I had to contribute to N.I. for 44 years, now 35. Bed blocking is caused because Convalescent homes were done away with, which allowed those well enough, but not fit to go home somewhere to go. So in essence the fault doesn't lay with "Well off pensioners" it lays firmly at the foot of useless Governments who's MP's only have to be an MP for 13 years to receive a pension. Get second home allowance, a very decent wage and perks such as subsidised food at drinks.
Spot on.
Bed blocking: my mother was one of those. She nearly died in Ipswich hospital because every single convalescent home in Suffolk had been closed by 2015. The hospital wanted her out, but she was far too unwell to be looked after at home.
Eventually thanks primarily to the hard work of the hospital social worker, we managed to find a suitable care home. But I will never forgive the politicians for their reckless policies of austerity that nearly ended her life prematurely.
But as you point out, the wider problems go back decades. Pensions - the damage done by Brown meant one of the best mixed pension provision systems in the world was flushed down the pan. I hear the state pension is ‘generous’. £205 a week is the max you can get. For example council tax is £222 pcm. Light and heat is rather useful so what would be left for food, clothes etc? Hardly generous.
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Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 13:21 - Sep 9 with 1720 views
Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 12:32 - Sep 9 by Churchman
Spot on.
Bed blocking: my mother was one of those. She nearly died in Ipswich hospital because every single convalescent home in Suffolk had been closed by 2015. The hospital wanted her out, but she was far too unwell to be looked after at home.
Eventually thanks primarily to the hard work of the hospital social worker, we managed to find a suitable care home. But I will never forgive the politicians for their reckless policies of austerity that nearly ended her life prematurely.
But as you point out, the wider problems go back decades. Pensions - the damage done by Brown meant one of the best mixed pension provision systems in the world was flushed down the pan. I hear the state pension is ‘generous’. £205 a week is the max you can get. For example council tax is £222 pcm. Light and heat is rather useful so what would be left for food, clothes etc? Hardly generous.
I fully agree on the convalescent homes point but am fully against you on the taxing of dividends received by pension funds. All Gordon Brown was doing was removing a long standing anomaly, that didn't have a substantial effect on well managed funds, which all Chancellors had been longing to do since the establishment of the Welfare State but only Brown had the courage to go through with. However, once the necessary had been done he was so pilloried by the yellow press that I suspect that held him back from going to the country straight away once he was Prime Minister. Imagine how much better position we would be in if the media had treated him decently and we had avoided the misery of the last thirteen years.
Brown did cock up selling the gold reserves though...
Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 13:21 - Sep 9 by WeWereZombies
I fully agree on the convalescent homes point but am fully against you on the taxing of dividends received by pension funds. All Gordon Brown was doing was removing a long standing anomaly, that didn't have a substantial effect on well managed funds, which all Chancellors had been longing to do since the establishment of the Welfare State but only Brown had the courage to go through with. However, once the necessary had been done he was so pilloried by the yellow press that I suspect that held him back from going to the country straight away once he was Prime Minister. Imagine how much better position we would be in if the media had treated him decently and we had avoided the misery of the last thirteen years.
Brown did cock up selling the gold reserves though...
There was other things he did with pension provision that were pretty awful at the time but I can’t face dredging through the memory or internet to remember. I ought to as I was working on a pensions project at the time so had to learn how they all worked. Age, huh.
The ‘Brown bottom’ was not his finest hour either. Alastair Darling was actually a far better Chancellor than Brown and ten times better than the mugs since 2010.
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Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 14:58 - Sep 9 with 1658 views
Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 on 13:21 - Sep 9 by WeWereZombies
I fully agree on the convalescent homes point but am fully against you on the taxing of dividends received by pension funds. All Gordon Brown was doing was removing a long standing anomaly, that didn't have a substantial effect on well managed funds, which all Chancellors had been longing to do since the establishment of the Welfare State but only Brown had the courage to go through with. However, once the necessary had been done he was so pilloried by the yellow press that I suspect that held him back from going to the country straight away once he was Prime Minister. Imagine how much better position we would be in if the media had treated him decently and we had avoided the misery of the last thirteen years.
Brown did cock up selling the gold reserves though...
The main thing with private pensions was a see-change in the attitudes of companies starting in the 1980s, from a paternalistic one where the provision of pensions was thought to be a good thing, to a selfish one where profit became the bottom line and shareholders' interests trumped those of employees.
And don't forget that huge private pension surpluses were used in the 1980s and 1990s to fund early retirement on an industrial scale in both the public and private sectors.
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