| Huge win for Labour in Scotland 06:46 - Oct 6 with 16344 views | GlasgowBlue |
Nationalists imploding. Tory collapse. Labour majority at the next election.
After years of mediocre leadership, Scottish Labour has been revitalised by Anas Sarwar, who is like a breath of fresh air.
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 20:45 - Oct 6 with 2725 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 20:13 - Oct 6 by Swansea_Blue |
Ah right. Although even in the 2017 election Labour increased their vote share by 9.6% and it resulted in a hung parliament:
- Tories gained 2.3 million votes and lost 13 seats
- Labour gained 3.5 million votes and 30 seats
So they did ok and there was obviously some appetite for what they were offering under Corbyn.
I don't know how people changed their vote between 2015 and 2017, but UKIP lost 3.2(ish) million votes between those 2 elections, and you'd imagine that a lot of those went to the Tories. Brexit seems to be at play again. I think that's distorted every general election we've had since 2015. |
In 2019 you had a choice between two opportunists - one lifelong Brexiteer who turned remainer to not upset his party/his career. On the other hand a remainer who switched to Brexiteer to further his career.
At least with the Lib Dems they stuck with their principles. |  | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 08:36 - Oct 7 with 2625 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 20:40 - Oct 6 by GlasgowBlue |
You favourite SNP propaganda rag, the National?
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23770100.michael-shanks-accused-brexit-flip-fl
Shanks quit Labour on the day of the European elections that year when Jeremy Corbyn was leader of the party, adding that there was “woefully inadequate” tackling of antisemitism.
Shanks later said he was “happy to rejoin when Keir Starmer took clear action to root out antisemitism and I’ve been proud to campaign for Labour ever since”. |
It was a detail that was covered in profiles before the by-election. As I read it somewhere other than The National a few days ago.
Trumpeting it after the by-election when it’s basically just the factional message from 2019 is tediously predictable. Including the update that Starmer has now “rooted out” antisemitism from the party ... so antisemitism no longer exists in Labour??! And how has Starmer and the Labour right taken responsibility for that given they were processing antisemitism complaints and throwing people out of the party in greater numbers when Corbyn (with Jennie Formby as General Secretary) took over? Since then Starmer and co have succeeded most in throwing out left-wing Jews in greater number than ever before which underlines the spurious factional nature of all this.
But I suppose you have to use the weapons when and where you can find them. |  |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 09:33 - Oct 7 with 2574 views | tractordownsouth |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 08:36 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
It was a detail that was covered in profiles before the by-election. As I read it somewhere other than The National a few days ago.
Trumpeting it after the by-election when it’s basically just the factional message from 2019 is tediously predictable. Including the update that Starmer has now “rooted out” antisemitism from the party ... so antisemitism no longer exists in Labour??! And how has Starmer and the Labour right taken responsibility for that given they were processing antisemitism complaints and throwing people out of the party in greater numbers when Corbyn (with Jennie Formby as General Secretary) took over? Since then Starmer and co have succeeded most in throwing out left-wing Jews in greater number than ever before which underlines the spurious factional nature of all this.
But I suppose you have to use the weapons when and where you can find them. |
"Since then Starmer and co have succeeded most in throwing out left-wing Jews in greater number than ever before which underlines the spurious factional nature of all this."
This is a claim I see a lot but it's never been backed up by evidence. To my knowledge, suspension numbers are not released and if they are, they're definitely not broken down by ethnicity or religion. |  |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 09:59 - Oct 7 with 2542 views | lowhouseblue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 08:36 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
It was a detail that was covered in profiles before the by-election. As I read it somewhere other than The National a few days ago.
Trumpeting it after the by-election when it’s basically just the factional message from 2019 is tediously predictable. Including the update that Starmer has now “rooted out” antisemitism from the party ... so antisemitism no longer exists in Labour??! And how has Starmer and the Labour right taken responsibility for that given they were processing antisemitism complaints and throwing people out of the party in greater numbers when Corbyn (with Jennie Formby as General Secretary) took over? Since then Starmer and co have succeeded most in throwing out left-wing Jews in greater number than ever before which underlines the spurious factional nature of all this.
But I suppose you have to use the weapons when and where you can find them. |
bingo.
the reason for raising it after the result is to show how much the party has changed. it's dealt with its toxic baggage. it's become electable (electable: adjective
(of a politician or party) having the qualities which make election likely or plausible.) |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Huge win for Labour in the Central Belt. on 10:10 - Oct 7 with 2502 views | WeWereZombies |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 09:59 - Oct 7 by lowhouseblue |
bingo.
the reason for raising it after the result is to show how much the party has changed. it's dealt with its toxic baggage. it's become electable (electable: adjective
(of a politician or party) having the qualities which make election likely or plausible.) |
A party can carry toxic baggage and still be electable (see Boris Johnson in 2019 and, perhaps, the AfD in Bavaria this weekend.) I hope Labour can win the next election but it will be decades before we can say that all forms of toxic baggage have left British politics. [Post edited 7 Oct 2023 10:10]
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:11 - Oct 7 with 2499 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 09:59 - Oct 7 by lowhouseblue |
bingo.
the reason for raising it after the result is to show how much the party has changed. it's dealt with its toxic baggage. it's become electable (electable: adjective
(of a politician or party) having the qualities which make election likely or plausible.) |
No matter how much you say it, it won’t actually be true.
The party has never been more toxic, authoritarian and anti-democratic as it is now. Nor as right-wing.
But fully expected from the Labour right — this is who they are. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:23 - Oct 7 with 2470 views | lowhouseblue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:11 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
No matter how much you say it, it won’t actually be true.
The party has never been more toxic, authoritarian and anti-democratic as it is now. Nor as right-wing.
But fully expected from the Labour right — this is who they are. |
seriously, find a party whose manifesto you support (not just individual policies in the abstract, but a whole coherent programme for government), and let us know what percent of the population agree with you in the general election. your views are a tiny minority and since compromising and forming alliances is utterly alien to you you'll always just be the buzzing, whining mosquito of politics. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:25 - Oct 7 with 2449 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 09:33 - Oct 7 by tractordownsouth |
"Since then Starmer and co have succeeded most in throwing out left-wing Jews in greater number than ever before which underlines the spurious factional nature of all this."
This is a claim I see a lot but it's never been backed up by evidence. To my knowledge, suspension numbers are not released and if they are, they're definitely not broken down by ethnicity or religion. |
Here you go:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-party-accused-discrimination-expell
There are extrapolations needed to judge how much Jewish members have been over-targeted so of course these aren’t exact figures. But the sheer number of cases is certainly clear.
I’ll also include this earlier article that gets to the human cost of this shameful and weaponised persecution of the “wrong kind of Jew”:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/labour-antisemitism-jewish-opponents-isr
It would be nice if you fanboys indicated that you even know or care about this stuff. But that’s not the line is it? | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:29 - Oct 7 with 2435 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:23 - Oct 7 by lowhouseblue |
seriously, find a party whose manifesto you support (not just individual policies in the abstract, but a whole coherent programme for government), and let us know what percent of the population agree with you in the general election. your views are a tiny minority and since compromising and forming alliances is utterly alien to you you'll always just be the buzzing, whining mosquito of politics. |
Seriously, join a proper right-wing party rather than screwing over the only chance of effective opposition. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:32 - Oct 7 with 2418 views | lowhouseblue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:29 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
Seriously, join a proper right-wing party rather than screwing over the only chance of effective opposition. |
i'm very happy to be in the party of wilson, callaghan, blair, brown and starmer thanks. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:34 - Oct 7 with 2407 views | Ryorry |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:29 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
Seriously, join a proper right-wing party rather than screwing over the only chance of effective opposition. |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:43 - Oct 7 with 2399 views | WeWereZombies |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:32 - Oct 7 by lowhouseblue |
i'm very happy to be in the party of wilson, callaghan, blair, brown and starmer thanks. |
It is also the party of Tony Benn, Michael Foot (who I have just discovered from Wikipedia was given shirt number 90 by Plymouth Argyle on his ninetieth birthday) and Glenda Jackson. It isn't just the Conservatives who an claim One Nation appeal and I think this thread could, as usual, do with a little less infighting and a little more free and frank exchange of opinions (with the suitable charity that befits a progressive party.) | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:47 - Oct 7 with 2396 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:32 - Oct 7 by lowhouseblue |
i'm very happy to be in the party of wilson, callaghan, blair, brown and starmer thanks. |
Pity that your Labour doesn’t have much space for socialists and social democrats any more unless they stay quiet.
Totally defeats the purpose of politics and democracy itself, especially when Labour becomes a narrow right-leaning cult in a landscape already full of them. You’d have gone through the roof if that had taken place under Corbyn but that was clearly much more of a broad church in the shadow cabinet and by respecting the membership and internal democracy. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:59 - Oct 7 with 2379 views | tractordownsouth |
That case of somebody taking an overdose is terrible and I hope they're getting the support they need.
The estimated figures in the articles still aren't enough to back up your original claim though. You'd need genuine numbers and a comparison with previous years to do that. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:09 - Oct 7 with 2368 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 10:59 - Oct 7 by tractordownsouth |
That case of somebody taking an overdose is terrible and I hope they're getting the support they need.
The estimated figures in the articles still aren't enough to back up your original claim though. You'd need genuine numbers and a comparison with previous years to do that. |
Come off it.
There are no “genuine numbers and a comparison with previous years” because as you know they don’t record ethnicity.
But you do know that this is happening now and wasn’t happening before. And we’re talking dozens of Jewish people as the JVL can attest to because it’s predominantly their members. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:19 - Oct 7 with 2335 views | tractordownsouth |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:09 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
Come off it.
There are no “genuine numbers and a comparison with previous years” because as you know they don’t record ethnicity.
But you do know that this is happening now and wasn’t happening before. And we’re talking dozens of Jewish people as the JVL can attest to because it’s predominantly their members. |
That's what I was saying. You can't go around claiming with certainty that Jews are being expelled in greater numbers than before because they don't record ethnicity. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:24 - Oct 7 with 2316 views | leitrimblue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:19 - Oct 7 by tractordownsouth |
That's what I was saying. You can't go around claiming with certainty that Jews are being expelled in greater numbers than before because they don't record ethnicity. |
What a surprise, Labour refusing to take antisemitism seriously. Starmer out! |  | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 11:30 - Oct 7 with 2312 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:19 - Oct 7 by tractordownsouth |
That's what I was saying. You can't go around claiming with certainty that Jews are being expelled in greater numbers than before because they don't record ethnicity. |
So you base it on extrapolations and the evidence of the Jews affected which the JVL have done.
Just address what these articles are saying rather than quibbling about exact figures that you know aren’t possible. Either defend these investigations, suspensions and expulsions of Jews for antisemitism or not, but refusing to address them is pretty insulting.
I’d never duck this if I had an actual point. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:35 - Oct 7 with 2296 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:24 - Oct 7 by leitrimblue |
What a surprise, Labour refusing to take antisemitism seriously. Starmer out! |
The irony is that according to the IHRA definition and examples pushed by the pro-Israel lobby, the idea that Jews can’t be anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian is deeply antisemitic itself. Seeing those people as “self-hating Jews” equally so.
But when you use anti-racism as a weapon rather than a principle, you’ll tie yourself in those kind of knots. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 12:02 - Oct 7 with 2259 views | leitrimblue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:35 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
The irony is that according to the IHRA definition and examples pushed by the pro-Israel lobby, the idea that Jews can’t be anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian is deeply antisemitic itself. Seeing those people as “self-hating Jews” equally so.
But when you use anti-racism as a weapon rather than a principle, you’ll tie yourself in those kind of knots. |
The weaponising of anti racism is one of the lowest points in the grotty world of UK politics. But I guess it achieved what was intended. | | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 12:24 - Oct 7 with 2228 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 12:02 - Oct 7 by leitrimblue |
The weaponising of anti racism is one of the lowest points in the grotty world of UK politics. But I guess it achieved what was intended. |
Agreed. And underlines how dangerous and culpable our media is that they amplified unsubstantiated accusations and ignored the actual evidence that contradicted them. There’s little to no reason to correct the record now but I do notice that the characterisations of the antisemitism crisis are much more muted now the damage has been done.
History will not judge this period kindly. Not least for the understandable fear and trauma that were heightened in the Jewish community as a result. They deserve much, much better than that. | |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 12:33 - Oct 7 with 2205 views | leitrimblue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 12:24 - Oct 7 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed. And underlines how dangerous and culpable our media is that they amplified unsubstantiated accusations and ignored the actual evidence that contradicted them. There’s little to no reason to correct the record now but I do notice that the characterisations of the antisemitism crisis are much more muted now the damage has been done.
History will not judge this period kindly. Not least for the understandable fear and trauma that were heightened in the Jewish community as a result. They deserve much, much better than that. |
I think the way that period of political history/history will be seen by future historians is an interesting topic. Historians ( good historians) base there theories or understandings on the actual recordable evidence not unsubstantiated accusations. I imagine in the future this period will be interpreted very differently to how some in the press an politics would have us believe | | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:37 - Oct 7 with 2191 views | Herbivore |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 20:45 - Oct 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
In 2019 you had a choice between two opportunists - one lifelong Brexiteer who turned remainer to not upset his party/his career. On the other hand a remainer who switched to Brexiteer to further his career.
At least with the Lib Dems they stuck with their principles. |
You've summed up the depth of political awareness and discourse in the UK quite nicely there. Fooking depressing that that's what people reduce it down to though. |  |
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 08:26 - Oct 8 with 2008 views | DJR |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 11:19 - Oct 7 by tractordownsouth |
That's what I was saying. You can't go around claiming with certainty that Jews are being expelled in greater numbers than before because they don't record ethnicity. |
I think you are rather missing the point.
According to the article mentioned above, 67 Jewish members of the Labour Party have either come under investigation in connection with antisemitism or been subject to auto-exclusion. A number have been subject to multiple investigations.
To paraphrase the words Starmer used after Uxbridge, "the Labour Party must be doing something very wrong if it is charging or suspending Jewish members for antisemitism", and to answer your point about comparisons with the past, I can't believe that happened before the antisemitism controversy arose during Corbyn's leadership.
As it is, I have much greater knowledge of, and interest in, this whole area than most people, knowing as I do both Euan Philipps, one of the founders of Labour Against Antisemitism, and Jenny Manson, one of the founders of Jewish Voice For Labour, an organisation set up by pro-Palestine Jewish Labour Party members.
Jenny Manson is one of the nicest people I have ever met but she happens to be a staunch critic of Israel and has herself faced disciplinary action leading her to say the following.
“For the first time in my life as a Jew living in the UK I feel persecuted, hated and shunned by the apparatus of the Labour Party and the loud voices of some sections of the Jewish community. The weapon used too often is to call us JVL activists antisemitic. Bizarre and wicked. Those who should defend us - the courts, the media, politicians - turn from us as if we are dangerous and distasteful,”.
Indeed, nine of JVL’s 16 Jewish officers and committee members have been investigated for antisemitism, with three currently suspended, when all they really are are staunch critics of Israel.
In my view, a disciplinary process which investigates Jewish people for antisemitism is completely Kafkaesque, given that criticism of Israel, and even anti-Zionism, is a strand, albeit a minority strand, in the Jewish community.
If you want an example of the injustice of an individual case, the following is well worth reading. Indeed, I believe that many of those who have been investigated are elderly left-wing Jews, often living on their own, which makes what is happening even more deplorable. Couple that with an example of at least one Jewish member who has been asked to undergo antisemitism training to avoid expulsion (and rightly refused), and it is clear that the Labour Party has entered into Orwellian territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/20/jewish-woman-accused-antisemiti
And without wishing to completely reopen the whole ECHR debate, here is an opinion which would never get an airing in the British media. It comes from the distinguished, Jewish, human rights lawyer Sir Geoffrey Bindman KC, a friend of both Corbyn and Starmer, although surprise, surprise Starmer appears to be shunning him these days.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/labour-antisemitism-geoffrey-bindman-politica
I would just conclude by saying that I don't have an antisemitic bone in my body, having worked for a Jewish firm of Solicitors and with one of my best friends being Jewish, and it is for this reason that I find reprehensible the effective persecution of Jewish members of the Labour Party, which in my view is antisemitic itself.
EDIT: my hostility to antisemitism is such that I even donated to the Campaign Against Antisemitism when it was formed before becoming a little suspicious about certain aspects of its agenda. Indeed, even Margaret Hodge tweeted about a year ago that the CAA is “more concerned with undermining Labour than rooting out antisemitism”. I might add that I am still on the CAA mailing list.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/04/uk-charities-watchdog-assesses- [Post edited 8 Oct 2023 10:32]
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| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 09:01 - Oct 8 with 1971 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotlandy on 08:26 - Oct 8 by DJR |
I think you are rather missing the point.
According to the article mentioned above, 67 Jewish members of the Labour Party have either come under investigation in connection with antisemitism or been subject to auto-exclusion. A number have been subject to multiple investigations.
To paraphrase the words Starmer used after Uxbridge, "the Labour Party must be doing something very wrong if it is charging or suspending Jewish members for antisemitism", and to answer your point about comparisons with the past, I can't believe that happened before the antisemitism controversy arose during Corbyn's leadership.
As it is, I have much greater knowledge of, and interest in, this whole area than most people, knowing as I do both Euan Philipps, one of the founders of Labour Against Antisemitism, and Jenny Manson, one of the founders of Jewish Voice For Labour, an organisation set up by pro-Palestine Jewish Labour Party members.
Jenny Manson is one of the nicest people I have ever met but she happens to be a staunch critic of Israel and has herself faced disciplinary action leading her to say the following.
“For the first time in my life as a Jew living in the UK I feel persecuted, hated and shunned by the apparatus of the Labour Party and the loud voices of some sections of the Jewish community. The weapon used too often is to call us JVL activists antisemitic. Bizarre and wicked. Those who should defend us - the courts, the media, politicians - turn from us as if we are dangerous and distasteful,”.
Indeed, nine of JVL’s 16 Jewish officers and committee members have been investigated for antisemitism, with three currently suspended, when all they really are are staunch critics of Israel.
In my view, a disciplinary process which investigates Jewish people for antisemitism is completely Kafkaesque, given that criticism of Israel, and even anti-Zionism, is a strand, albeit a minority strand, in the Jewish community.
If you want an example of the injustice of an individual case, the following is well worth reading. Indeed, I believe that many of those who have been investigated are elderly left-wing Jews, often living on their own, which makes what is happening even more deplorable. Couple that with an example of at least one Jewish member who has been asked to undergo antisemitism training to avoid expulsion (and rightly refused), and it is clear that the Labour Party has entered into Orwellian territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/20/jewish-woman-accused-antisemiti
And without wishing to completely reopen the whole ECHR debate, here is an opinion which would never get an airing in the British media. It comes from the distinguished, Jewish, human rights lawyer Sir Geoffrey Bindman KC, a friend of both Corbyn and Starmer, although surprise, surprise Starmer appears to be shunning him these days.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/labour-antisemitism-geoffrey-bindman-politica
I would just conclude by saying that I don't have an antisemitic bone in my body, having worked for a Jewish firm of Solicitors and with one of my best friends being Jewish, and it is for this reason that I find reprehensible the effective persecution of Jewish members of the Labour Party, which in my view is antisemitic itself.
EDIT: my hostility to antisemitism is such that I even donated to the Campaign Against Antisemitism when it was formed before becoming a little suspicious about certain aspects of its agenda. Indeed, even Margaret Hodge tweeted about a year ago that the CAA is “more concerned with undermining Labour than rooting out antisemitism”. I might add that I am still on the CAA mailing list.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/04/uk-charities-watchdog-assesses- [Post edited 8 Oct 2023 10:32]
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Well yes, but apart from that! |  |
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