| Huge win for Labour in Scotland 06:46 - Oct 6 with 16343 views | GlasgowBlue |
Nationalists imploding. Tory collapse. Labour majority at the next election.
After years of mediocre leadership, Scottish Labour has been revitalised by Anas Sarwar, who is like a breath of fresh air.
|  |
| |  |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:16 - Oct 6 with 1709 views | itfcjoe |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:09 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
The country did want those policies with most of them having majority support. In 2017 millions of people did come back to Labour and this platform after haemorrhaging votes ever since 1997. After all, New Labour didn’t deliver much that was lasting after 13 years except cementing the neoliberal settlement and the overall slide right.
2019 was a mess. On one hand it was all about Brexit. On the other hand, there has never been a more sustained, OTT and largely unevidenced attack on a political leader, as well as social democracy and the left more generally. The policies themselves were pointedly ignored and put in a package bespattered with mud to dismiss them.
The hope was that Starmer was true to his word re: seeing the 2017 manifesto as a foundational document and one he backed by his 10 pledges. Social democratic policies without being a target for the smeary personal attacks was his leadership pitch. I bought that fully but the speed and ease with which he has dropped all those pledges and policies (and not been criticised in the slightest in the mainstream) speaks volumes.
As bad as the Tories are, and they are f***ing awful, their underlying danger is what they believe is right for a modern economy and society, and what is right for their own self-interest and the interests of their donors/backers/lobbyists. Those holding onto the reins of the current Labour Party and sidelining the internal democracy within are the same people who will operate in much the same way. Maybe occasionally attending a Pride march to cosplay as progressive. |
But surely you understand you can't just poll individual policies, see if they are favoured and not look at the overall package of policies put forwards?
It's like the transfer window in 2021, when you look at all the signings and sales individually a good case can be made for all of them, but putting it all together it was a mess, as was the Labour 2019 manifesto by the end of it |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:23 - Oct 6 with 1680 views | Zapers |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:43 - Oct 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Well your premise is wrong for starters. Labour aren't the same as the Conservatives. What they're doing is not rocking the boat. It's obvious, and it's working.
I wanted Corbyn's policies more than anything. But you know what? The country didn't. So what do you do? Change or move to another country.
Banging on about Corbyn's policies now achieves nothing other than enabling the Tories. |
This.
Corbyn needs to be consigned to the history books. That is unfortunate, because in my world, he would be consigned to the bin.
Anyhow Flasher is correct, the country didn't like him, Starmer is more center politically and it's this that will likely get him elected. |  | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:26 - Oct 6 with 1666 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:14 - Oct 6 by itfcjoe |
Campbell does also talk about Starmer needing to do what Labour did in 10 years over 5 - detoxify the party after electoral wipe out, get everything on the straight and narrow and make it electable again, then sell a positive vision going forwards.
It feels very much like 2 down, 1 to go, and that 1 needs to start soon to win the next election with a majority - but they are following the same process with regards to spending commitments and it is dull and will need to improve between now and the next GE, and sure that it will do.
Interesting point from John Sopel yesterday, where he says people keep saying is the next election going to be 1992 or 1997, and he likens the Labour party more to 1994 and Keir Starmer to John Smith, Smith before my time, but as both good leaders, across the detail, going in the right direction but without the personality or popularity of a Blair.....we never found out what would have happened had Smith let Labour into an election |
It’s funny because I don’t think the Labour Party has ever been as toxic as it is now. It’s been stolen from the members by people who believe in little else but the political game and their own access to power, money and influence. And they have an Orwellian relationship to the truth.
That’s a crude generalisation and there are some people still involved who I believe are better than that. But despite its harshness it is essentially fair, much in the same way as people’s view of the Tories is essentially fair even if there is sweetcorn in the turd. The result and effect on the country is still sh1t. |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:30 - Oct 6 with 1648 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:09 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
The country did want those policies with most of them having majority support. In 2017 millions of people did come back to Labour and this platform after haemorrhaging votes ever since 1997. After all, New Labour didn’t deliver much that was lasting after 13 years except cementing the neoliberal settlement and the overall slide right.
2019 was a mess. On one hand it was all about Brexit. On the other hand, there has never been a more sustained, OTT and largely unevidenced attack on a political leader, as well as social democracy and the left more generally. The policies themselves were pointedly ignored and put in a package bespattered with mud to dismiss them.
The hope was that Starmer was true to his word re: seeing the 2017 manifesto as a foundational document and one he backed by his 10 pledges. Social democratic policies without being a target for the smeary personal attacks was his leadership pitch. I bought that fully but the speed and ease with which he has dropped all those pledges and policies (and not been criticised in the slightest in the mainstream) speaks volumes.
As bad as the Tories are, and they are f***ing awful, their underlying danger is what they believe is right for a modern economy and society, and what is right for their own self-interest and the interests of their donors/backers/lobbyists. Those holding onto the reins of the current Labour Party and sidelining the internal democracy within are the same people who will operate in much the same way. Maybe occasionally attending a Pride march to cosplay as progressive. |
Whilst the number of Labour voters did increase in 2017, just championing that ignores that it was also the product of the social media age and us moving even further toward a 2 party system than we were before
The Tories also gained an extra 2m+ votes in that election, so let’s all congratulate Theresa May on such an inspiring campaign and policies that brought in millions of new voters |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:36 - Oct 6 with 1633 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:16 - Oct 6 by itfcjoe |
But surely you understand you can't just poll individual policies, see if they are favoured and not look at the overall package of policies put forwards?
It's like the transfer window in 2021, when you look at all the signings and sales individually a good case can be made for all of them, but putting it all together it was a mess, as was the Labour 2019 manifesto by the end of it |
But they weren’t considered as a package of policies. They were dismissed as an overall uncosted, unneeded, unpopular and ultimately dangerous package from a man who was everything from the next Hitler, IRA paramilitary to a communist Czech spy. Oh and who also didn’t know up from down when it came to Brexit.
That’s par for the course in a country that is incapable of addressing real underlying issues let alone policies in our political landscape. But let’s not pretend there was any real attempt to debate policy and cost/benefits. That’s one of the main reasons why we’ve had 13 years of Tory rule. | |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:37 - Oct 6 with 1630 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:30 - Oct 6 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Whilst the number of Labour voters did increase in 2017, just championing that ignores that it was also the product of the social media age and us moving even further toward a 2 party system than we were before
The Tories also gained an extra 2m+ votes in that election, so let’s all congratulate Theresa May on such an inspiring campaign and policies that brought in millions of new voters |
The ‘more votes than New Labour’ stat that gets churned out at HQ is also a disingenuous one anyway. The UK population grew by 7m in the time since Blair was last elected. | | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:41 - Oct 6 with 1619 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:30 - Oct 6 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Whilst the number of Labour voters did increase in 2017, just championing that ignores that it was also the product of the social media age and us moving even further toward a 2 party system than we were before
The Tories also gained an extra 2m+ votes in that election, so let’s all congratulate Theresa May on such an inspiring campaign and policies that brought in millions of new voters |
Sure! But you can put that down to Corbyn too.
Seeing how the centre-right and right get exercised by him and his politics on here and on social media, I’m sure they were coming out in their droves against an “enemy of Britain” and “communism”. | |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:54 - Oct 6 with 1565 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:29 - Oct 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's not a low turnout, though, in context. It's about right, and what was expected, for a by-election. |
I didn't use the phrase "low turnout". I said that "the point about turnout is important" in terms of assessing how much of a bell-weather this is for a General Election in a year and a half+.
And made the point that it is impossible to extrapolate whether the people who will vote at the next General Election, but didn't at this, stayed away because of disapproval of Ferrier's actions, or disapproval at some major issues facing the SNP generally, or because it is an end of School Term By-Election that doesn't make much difference. (Or a combination of the above)
They are all plausible reasons. But the first and third categories are less likely to carry through across Scotland at a General Election, whereas the second would be a signal that a significant number of seats could change from SNP to Labour (or, less likely, to Conservative, and in some areas possibly Lib Dems).
It's one very particular set of results, and, although it was a much stronger result for Labour than expected, there are strong reasons to be cautious about extrapolating from very limited data with no controls for a range of variables! | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:54 - Oct 6 with 1562 views | tractordownsouth |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:16 - Oct 6 by itfcjoe |
But surely you understand you can't just poll individual policies, see if they are favoured and not look at the overall package of policies put forwards?
It's like the transfer window in 2021, when you look at all the signings and sales individually a good case can be made for all of them, but putting it all together it was a mess, as was the Labour 2019 manifesto by the end of it |
This basically sums up the Corbyn problem. It's easy to poll people and say "do you want more money for X?" because they'll say yes every time, but once it all adds up it becomes harder to sell to the public.
It's the opposite problem that the right wingers have with immigration. All surveys shows that the vast majority of voters want the numbers to come down, but once you poll things individually it's different. Most people are happy to have people come in to work in the NHS, pick fruit, become HGV drivers, flee from Ukraine etc. It's only the small boats that are more unpopular when taken alone. |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:57 - Oct 6 with 1558 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:09 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
The country did want those policies with most of them having majority support. In 2017 millions of people did come back to Labour and this platform after haemorrhaging votes ever since 1997. After all, New Labour didn’t deliver much that was lasting after 13 years except cementing the neoliberal settlement and the overall slide right.
2019 was a mess. On one hand it was all about Brexit. On the other hand, there has never been a more sustained, OTT and largely unevidenced attack on a political leader, as well as social democracy and the left more generally. The policies themselves were pointedly ignored and put in a package bespattered with mud to dismiss them.
The hope was that Starmer was true to his word re: seeing the 2017 manifesto as a foundational document and one he backed by his 10 pledges. Social democratic policies without being a target for the smeary personal attacks was his leadership pitch. I bought that fully but the speed and ease with which he has dropped all those pledges and policies (and not been criticised in the slightest in the mainstream) speaks volumes.
As bad as the Tories are, and they are f***ing awful, their underlying danger is what they believe is right for a modern economy and society, and what is right for their own self-interest and the interests of their donors/backers/lobbyists. Those holding onto the reins of the current Labour Party and sidelining the internal democracy within are the same people who will operate in much the same way. Maybe occasionally attending a Pride march to cosplay as progressive. |
Whatever the whys and wherefores, we were destroyed in a landslide.
To Boris de Pfeffel Johnson FFS!
The smearing was horrendous, as were the lies about Brexit, but at the end of the day I'm not sure how you evidence "The country did want those policies with most of them having majority support." They didn't vote for them.
Starmer would be bonkers to be seen to be going down the same route. The press would just find a way to smear him instead. Playing a straight bat is the only way to beat them, and with Labour so far ahead in the polls it would be very, very risky to start announcing Corbyn policies. You'd be leaving yourself wide open to claims of Corbyn Mk2. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:57 - Oct 6 with 1553 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:37 - Oct 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The ‘more votes than New Labour’ stat that gets churned out at HQ is also a disingenuous one anyway. The UK population grew by 7m in the time since Blair was last elected. |
So they were losing millions of votes from 1997 until 2015 even when the population was growing by many more millions? Or don’t you want both sides of the equation.
This desire to rewrite history and dismiss a reversal of that and a resurgent Labour vote is bizarre to say the least. Especially coming from those who seem to say it’s all about getting people to vote for you.
But I suppose we are seeing politics as almost complete narrative nowadays. So I’m sure you know what you’re doing and it’ll all work out for the best. | |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:58 - Oct 6 with 1548 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:01 - Oct 6 by giant_stow |
"huge" is fine - it was a bigger winning margin than anyone expected.
Nationalists lost - perfect. |
So what is your issue with "inspiring?" |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:58 - Oct 6 with 1546 views | giant_stow |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:54 - Oct 6 by tractordownsouth |
This basically sums up the Corbyn problem. It's easy to poll people and say "do you want more money for X?" because they'll say yes every time, but once it all adds up it becomes harder to sell to the public.
It's the opposite problem that the right wingers have with immigration. All surveys shows that the vast majority of voters want the numbers to come down, but once you poll things individually it's different. Most people are happy to have people come in to work in the NHS, pick fruit, become HGV drivers, flee from Ukraine etc. It's only the small boats that are more unpopular when taken alone. |
Essentially, this 'Corbyn's policies were popular' thing is just more dishonest politicking... from the people who complain about dishonest politicking. |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:03 - Oct 6 with 1539 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:37 - Oct 6 by giant_stow |
Its a very strange world where plenty of left-wingers seem to actively advocate against the the only chance of removing the corrupt shambolic tories. I suspect many of them don't have skin in the game / its just an academic exercise for them. |
Why would anybody regarding themselves as left wing advocate for a right wing party.....now that really is a strange world. | |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:03 - Oct 6 with 1538 views | DJR |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:37 - Oct 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The ‘more votes than New Labour’ stat that gets churned out at HQ is also a disingenuous one anyway. The UK population grew by 7m in the time since Blair was last elected. |
Relying on Migration Watch analysis, around 85% of that increase would have been due to immigration, and many immigrants (eg. EU citizens and others who don't have British or Irish nationality) don't have the right to vote in General Elections. [Post edited 6 Oct 2023 14:05]
|  | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:06 - Oct 6 with 1516 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:45 - Oct 6 by itfcjoe |
Yep, they aren't exactly on the coal face are they - easy to opine from a relative ivory tower over people who need change now, not after another election cycle |
I think anyone working in the NHS or Education or University Research, to give some examples of posters on here, and face the realities of trying to make things work after the twin devastations of Austerity and Brexit (both ideological choices of the 13 year multi-PM Tory epoch) is very much at the coalface.
Not a poster on here, but a friend is a senior Prison Service officer, who both works "at the coalface" alongside a privatised workforce in one prison, and advises the Justice Department. She knows what she is talking about. She said that she wasn't surprised that a dangerous prisoner escaped recently, because there are long periods where staffing shortages mean required checks aren't carried out. And dummy things coming in and going out (as checks on systems) which get missed. Privatisation and Austerity has led to huge failures in the Prison Service.
Can anyone point to an area of life that has improved due to Tory policies in the last 13 years? | | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:12 - Oct 6 with 1499 views | Darth_Koont |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:57 - Oct 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Whatever the whys and wherefores, we were destroyed in a landslide.
To Boris de Pfeffel Johnson FFS!
The smearing was horrendous, as were the lies about Brexit, but at the end of the day I'm not sure how you evidence "The country did want those policies with most of them having majority support." They didn't vote for them.
Starmer would be bonkers to be seen to be going down the same route. The press would just find a way to smear him instead. Playing a straight bat is the only way to beat them, and with Labour so far ahead in the polls it would be very, very risky to start announcing Corbyn policies. You'd be leaving yourself wide open to claims of Corbyn Mk2. |
But you’ve said exactly the same thing. You’re saying he can’t talk about Corbyn policies without being tarred with a particularly sh1tty brush. With little or no need to discuss the policies in their own right.
I’m not saying this isn’t a Catch-22. It is but the other side of that is that we get worse and worse governments and a worse and worse economy and society because we don’t or rather can’t hold a government accountable for governing because there are no alternatives allowed.
We’ve had getting on for 40 years of sliding right without the balance of social democratic alternatives and the best practice we see around most of the rest of Europe. If you want one reason why we are scraping the barrel in our politics with no vision or ideas, and why our shonky financialised economy is creaking and society suffering, it’s because the barrel is truly empty.
They have no answers apart from conserving power and along with it established interests. | |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:15 - Oct 6 with 1490 views | Ryorry |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:14 - Oct 6 by itfcjoe |
Campbell does also talk about Starmer needing to do what Labour did in 10 years over 5 - detoxify the party after electoral wipe out, get everything on the straight and narrow and make it electable again, then sell a positive vision going forwards.
It feels very much like 2 down, 1 to go, and that 1 needs to start soon to win the next election with a majority - but they are following the same process with regards to spending commitments and it is dull and will need to improve between now and the next GE, and sure that it will do.
Interesting point from John Sopel yesterday, where he says people keep saying is the next election going to be 1992 or 1997, and he likens the Labour party more to 1994 and Keir Starmer to John Smith, Smith before my time, but as both good leaders, across the detail, going in the right direction but without the personality or popularity of a Blair.....we never found out what would have happened had Smith let Labour into an election |
Can't know for sure obviously, but given the good man that John Smith was, my bet is that the UK would now be unrecognisable, in a good way, from where we are in reality.
No Brexit
No sinking down to the toxic far right
No fascist laws re the right to protest
Environmental standards upheld
Renewables projects boosting economy & UK reputation
No privatisation of the NHS stealthily bit by sneaky bit
On the global stage, no supporting of Bush presidencies, tens of thousands of lives saved.
Just for starters.
Arguably the best PM we never had. A tragic loss not just for his family & friends, but to the whole country & internationally too. |  |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:17 - Oct 6 with 1483 views | DJR |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:58 - Oct 6 by giant_stow |
Essentially, this 'Corbyn's policies were popular' thing is just more dishonest politicking... from the people who complain about dishonest politicking. |
I am not sure that anyone on this thread campaigned on the streets in 2017 but I did (and wasn't Corbyn's greatest fan). But it was noticeable that the tide turned towards Corbyn as the campaign wore on, and he was able to put the Labour case freed from the usual media twisting.
Whilst the change in mood didn't apply to the older people secure in their homes or with pensions, it was certainly the case for those I spoke to aged under 50 saddled with things like student debt, high rents, unaffordable properties, insecure jobs, lack of pensions, little in the way of salary increases.
Of course, Corbyn wasn't the right person to lead a political party, but I remain convinced there is demand out there for slightly more radical policies than Starmer is offering, And I don't think, given the direction of travel, that Labour is ever going to go there.
EDIT: One of the issue I have is that the debate on TWTD always seems to boil down to a binary choice between Corbyn with Corbyn's policies and Starmer with Starmer's policies. Why can't the debate include Starmer or A N Other with policies not as radical as Corbyn's. [Post edited 6 Oct 2023 15:35]
| | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:17 - Oct 6 with 1478 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:03 - Oct 6 by DJR |
Relying on Migration Watch analysis, around 85% of that increase would have been due to immigration, and many immigrants (eg. EU citizens and others who don't have British or Irish nationality) don't have the right to vote in General Elections. [Post edited 6 Oct 2023 14:05]
|
Electoral registrations were ~44m in 2007, and ~47m in 2019. | | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:18 - Oct 6 with 1467 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:41 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
Sure! But you can put that down to Corbyn too.
Seeing how the centre-right and right get exercised by him and his politics on here and on social media, I’m sure they were coming out in their droves against an “enemy of Britain” and “communism”. |
So err, Corbyn and his policies were so popular then that millions turned to the Tories to specifically vote against them?
I’m sure you’ll remember to note that point the next time you just post the ‘Corbyn attracted millions back to Labour’ soundbite without any other context | |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:23 - Oct 6 with 1441 views | DJR |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:17 - Oct 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Electoral registrations were ~44m in 2007, and ~47m in 2019. |
That's not 7 million though, and 2019 is later than the 2017 election I thought you were talking about. | | | |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:24 - Oct 6 with 1434 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 13:57 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
So they were losing millions of votes from 1997 until 2015 even when the population was growing by many more millions? Or don’t you want both sides of the equation.
This desire to rewrite history and dismiss a reversal of that and a resurgent Labour vote is bizarre to say the least. Especially coming from those who seem to say it’s all about getting people to vote for you.
But I suppose we are seeing politics as almost complete narrative nowadays. So I’m sure you know what you’re doing and it’ll all work out for the best. |
A resurgent Labour still wasn't a winning Labour. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:37 - Oct 6 with 1401 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:12 - Oct 6 by Darth_Koont |
But you’ve said exactly the same thing. You’re saying he can’t talk about Corbyn policies without being tarred with a particularly sh1tty brush. With little or no need to discuss the policies in their own right.
I’m not saying this isn’t a Catch-22. It is but the other side of that is that we get worse and worse governments and a worse and worse economy and society because we don’t or rather can’t hold a government accountable for governing because there are no alternatives allowed.
We’ve had getting on for 40 years of sliding right without the balance of social democratic alternatives and the best practice we see around most of the rest of Europe. If you want one reason why we are scraping the barrel in our politics with no vision or ideas, and why our shonky financialised economy is creaking and society suffering, it’s because the barrel is truly empty.
They have no answers apart from conserving power and along with it established interests. |
Well the hope is they bring in more progressive policies once in power. Marching them through the front door doesn't work, however much it irks you. You don't know we'll get worse and worse governments yet. The hope is that once Labour are in things will start drifting back to the left again, but expecting a (largely selfish, right-wing) electorate to just switch because you want them too isn't realistic.
Ease them in gently, or go all guns blazing and lose again.
As a side note, your bleating is utterly pointless anyway. Even if in your dream world Starmer could be ousted right now and some progressive brought in, the Labour Party would be shown to be all over the place, would be utterly split, and that's your election lost right there. From a commanding lead.
You'd be better off, like me, sitting tight and crossing your fingers. At least we have a chance then. Your way, we've got no chance. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 14:50 - Oct 6 with 1367 views | Radlett_blue |
| Huge win for Labour in Scotland on 12:53 - Oct 6 by DJR |
You obviously don't realise the party name is the Scottish National Party. |
the National Socialist German Workers' Party weren't exactly great. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
