| Southgate on borrowed time? 21:00 - Mar 23 with 6350 views | bournemouthblue |
we are not winning anything with this mentality, it's slow, ponderous and negative
I know Konsa was enforced but his next subs are Gomez (to left back), Dunk and Mainoo
That's not exactly rolling the dice is it? |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:48 - Mar 25 with 1355 views | BlueBlood90 |
He gets my full backing for the Euros because it would be idiotic to think about changing things now. However I wouldn't want him to stay past the summer.
When you think back to the mess we were in when he took charge (losing to Iceland and big fat Sam drunkenly embarrassing his employers) then you have to say he's done many good things during his time. Although he has stumbled upon a golden generation and should've won silverware due to favourable routes at tournaments. He's too negative to take the game to teams who are on par with us. If he takes the handbrakes off then I think we will win it this summer. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:54 - Mar 25 with 1281 views | stonojnr |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:32 - Mar 24 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Getting to Semi Finals and a Final in successive tournaments is remarkable progress from where we have been since 1974.
Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round
Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables
Then, finally,
Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final
Looks like 'progress' to me. |
whilst ignoring qualification setups thesedays virtually guarantee tournament participation for any team in "pot 1".
you have to really really mess up those qualification games to find yourself missing out on a tournament.
and even tournament draws favour "pot 1" team progression to later rounds.
at least under those managers youve listed, alot of the times it felt like we had an actual team, with team spirit and a combined purpose, and not just a collection of individuals |  | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 12:35 - Mar 25 with 1265 views | itfcjoe |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:54 - Mar 25 by stonojnr |
whilst ignoring qualification setups thesedays virtually guarantee tournament participation for any team in "pot 1".
you have to really really mess up those qualification games to find yourself missing out on a tournament.
and even tournament draws favour "pot 1" team progression to later rounds.
at least under those managers youve listed, alot of the times it felt like we had an actual team, with team spirit and a combined purpose, and not just a collection of individuals |
Lots of big teams fail to qualify for tournaments, Italy missed the last 2 World Cups, Netherlands missed WC 2018,
I don't get the last paragraph, surely you aren's saying we had more of a team than we do now through 2000s? |  |
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| I’d sack him now…. on 12:39 - Mar 25 with 1260 views | Bloots |
….get Jose in for the Euros.
Win it.
Then sack him the day after.
Sorted. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 13:53 - Mar 25 with 1226 views | Bluedandy |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 11:32 - Mar 24 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Getting to Semi Finals and a Final in successive tournaments is remarkable progress from where we have been since 1974.
Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round
Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables
Then, finally,
Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final
Looks like 'progress' to me. |
Getting to a final must be put in the context of having home advantage which is huge and that's essentially what we had in 2021 (bar Ukraine).
In 66 we won World Cup and in 96 got to the semi but had a much harder knockout phase (Spain, Holland and Germany) ... in 2021 yes we made the final but bar a subpar Germany played no major power to get there.
Few think Southgate hasn't done well, but the key issue is whether he possesses the managerial qualities to win crucial games and come out on top in key moments.
Southgate lost it tactically second half against Croatia in 2018 after being a gifted an easy route to the semi and was out manoeuvred in 2021 by Mancini's Italy who then didn't even qualify for the World Cup.
Many England fans suspect we won't win a tournament with Southgate in charge and they're probably right, and it is a farce that we haven't won anything since 66 when you bear in mind some of the nations that have lifted a trophy in that time (Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Greece and Portugal).
Would you bet on Southgate having a successful career as a club manager after England? Much more likely to be another Chris Coleman in my estimation and look what he did for Wales.
Personally would give the job to Mourinho, could be disastrous, but he's clearly no longer motivated by club management and the prospect of lifting a World Cup/Euros for his adopted nation would undoubtedly reignite his managerial fire. | | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:03 - Mar 25 with 1212 views | itfcjoe |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 13:53 - Mar 25 by Bluedandy |
Getting to a final must be put in the context of having home advantage which is huge and that's essentially what we had in 2021 (bar Ukraine).
In 66 we won World Cup and in 96 got to the semi but had a much harder knockout phase (Spain, Holland and Germany) ... in 2021 yes we made the final but bar a subpar Germany played no major power to get there.
Few think Southgate hasn't done well, but the key issue is whether he possesses the managerial qualities to win crucial games and come out on top in key moments.
Southgate lost it tactically second half against Croatia in 2018 after being a gifted an easy route to the semi and was out manoeuvred in 2021 by Mancini's Italy who then didn't even qualify for the World Cup.
Many England fans suspect we won't win a tournament with Southgate in charge and they're probably right, and it is a farce that we haven't won anything since 66 when you bear in mind some of the nations that have lifted a trophy in that time (Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Greece and Portugal).
Would you bet on Southgate having a successful career as a club manager after England? Much more likely to be another Chris Coleman in my estimation and look what he did for Wales.
Personally would give the job to Mourinho, could be disastrous, but he's clearly no longer motivated by club management and the prospect of lifting a World Cup/Euros for his adopted nation would undoubtedly reignite his managerial fire. |
In '96 we only beat Spain in the knockouts, as Holland was a group game, and we were God awful against them but beat them on penalties (they had a perfectly good goal disallowed).
Southgate has done excellently as England manager, better than anyone since Sir Alf (who subsequently left after failing to qualify for 1974 WC, and in 1970 WC we lost to only decent teams we played which is a criticism levelled at Southgate)
I think for all talk of possessing the key managerial qualities to win the crucial games a big chunk of it comes down to luck.
v Croatia in the semi if Kane squares it rather than shoots we go 2-0 up
v Italy in the final if Rashford's penalty is 6 inches to the right we go 2 up in the hoot out
v France - Kane's penalty etc
Southgate probably won't win a tournament for England, because nearly all managers don't do and in tournament football it takes a big dose of luck unless you are far and away the best side which we haven't ever been. But the national team is in as good a position as it's ever been, and whoever gets the job next inherits a hell of a legacy. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:48 - Mar 25 with 1185 views | Bluedandy |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:03 - Mar 25 by itfcjoe |
In '96 we only beat Spain in the knockouts, as Holland was a group game, and we were God awful against them but beat them on penalties (they had a perfectly good goal disallowed).
Southgate has done excellently as England manager, better than anyone since Sir Alf (who subsequently left after failing to qualify for 1974 WC, and in 1970 WC we lost to only decent teams we played which is a criticism levelled at Southgate)
I think for all talk of possessing the key managerial qualities to win the crucial games a big chunk of it comes down to luck.
v Croatia in the semi if Kane squares it rather than shoots we go 2-0 up
v Italy in the final if Rashford's penalty is 6 inches to the right we go 2 up in the hoot out
v France - Kane's penalty etc
Southgate probably won't win a tournament for England, because nearly all managers don't do and in tournament football it takes a big dose of luck unless you are far and away the best side which we haven't ever been. But the national team is in as good a position as it's ever been, and whoever gets the job next inherits a hell of a legacy. |
Apologies re Holland but the point still stands about home advantage, just look at South Korea in 2002.
Southgate has done a very good job for England just like Chris Coleman did at Wales, but I certainly wouldn't call him an excellent manager.
Do you expect him to excel in club management after England?
Of course luck plays a big part in any tournament success but most national managers won't get the opportunities of such an easy route in 2018 or home advantage in 2021.
And there are some managers out there, not many, but some who would have taken better advantage of those moments. | | | |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 15:14 - Mar 25 with 1164 views | itfcjoe |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:48 - Mar 25 by Bluedandy |
Apologies re Holland but the point still stands about home advantage, just look at South Korea in 2002.
Southgate has done a very good job for England just like Chris Coleman did at Wales, but I certainly wouldn't call him an excellent manager.
Do you expect him to excel in club management after England?
Of course luck plays a big part in any tournament success but most national managers won't get the opportunities of such an easy route in 2018 or home advantage in 2021.
And there are some managers out there, not many, but some who would have taken better advantage of those moments. |
I don't think club management and international management are particularly similar so personally never see it as a particularly relevant point - plenty of people go both ways and excel at one and struggle in another.
International management is just about a pretty simple set up, compared to club football tactically and ensuring the best players want to be there and are good travellers and good people around the camp and you can utilise your best players and hide weaker spots in the team. The standard is much lower and always will be now.
And for the managers that may have taken better advantages of the moments, these were the moments that Southgate created and they may not have been good enough to get them to that point with the overall job done. I think Southgate suffers because he makes hard parts of the job look easy, liek general squad and people management.
He'll be judged on whether he wins a tournament or not, but the reality is in ranking terms he has turned us into one of the top teams - this is when we've been in the top 5 since they game in in mid 90s
December 1997-June 1998 (Hoddle) - 6 months
July 2006-December 2006 (Sven) - 6 months
June & August 2011, (Capello) - 2 months
July-October 2012, Feb-March 2013 (Hodgson) - 6 months
October 2018-Now (Southgate) - 5 years, 5 months
It's an unprecedented period of success for England in the modern era, and a trophy would totally top it off. He's raised the standards that he is now judged against which may be a little unfair | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 15:18 - Mar 25 with 1156 views | jayessess |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:48 - Mar 25 by Bluedandy |
Apologies re Holland but the point still stands about home advantage, just look at South Korea in 2002.
Southgate has done a very good job for England just like Chris Coleman did at Wales, but I certainly wouldn't call him an excellent manager.
Do you expect him to excel in club management after England?
Of course luck plays a big part in any tournament success but most national managers won't get the opportunities of such an easy route in 2018 or home advantage in 2021.
And there are some managers out there, not many, but some who would have taken better advantage of those moments. |
Most national teams managed by people who'd are B-lister club coaches.
The last World Cup final was contested by teams managed by Lionel Scaloni and Didier Deschamps, neither of whom would be at the top of any elite team's management recruitment strategy. Deschamps was fired from all three of his club jobs, Scaloni got his gig after a stint as Argentina U20 coach.
I don't think you can make a straightforward case that another manager would have definitely negotiated those hurdles. Historically, England managers haven't been good enough to get to those sorts of situations. The charge against Southgate seems to be that out-performing every predecessor bar one doesn't count. Is the argument that this group of players is uniquely brilliant? Or that no competent England coach has been appointed in the last half century? |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 22:51 - Mar 25 with 1082 views | tractordownsouth |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:48 - Mar 25 by Bluedandy |
Apologies re Holland but the point still stands about home advantage, just look at South Korea in 2002.
Southgate has done a very good job for England just like Chris Coleman did at Wales, but I certainly wouldn't call him an excellent manager.
Do you expect him to excel in club management after England?
Of course luck plays a big part in any tournament success but most national managers won't get the opportunities of such an easy route in 2018 or home advantage in 2021.
And there are some managers out there, not many, but some who would have taken better advantage of those moments. |
Whether or not he excels in club management is irrelevant. They're completely different jobs with separate skillsets. To use the 2022 World Cup as an example, Argentina won it with Lionel Scaloni in charge, who had never been a club manager before. At the other end of the spectrum, Germany and Spain took treble winning coaches to the tournament and were both dreadful. Plenty of other examples too, including in our own history with Fabio Capello.
Also worth noting that while Southgate's in-game tactics are a weakness, he's made plenty of bold pre-game choices that paid off. Before the opening game of the Euros against Croatia, social media was in uproar at his choice to play Trippier at left back, yet it completely nullified Ivan Perisic's threat cutting in from the right. The formation switch against Germany was roundly criticised but it proved to be completely the correct decision as well.
I think it will naturally be time for a change in the summer but history will be a lot kinder to him than Twitter currently is. |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 23:11 - Mar 25 with 1070 views | bournemouthblue |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 22:51 - Mar 25 by tractordownsouth |
Whether or not he excels in club management is irrelevant. They're completely different jobs with separate skillsets. To use the 2022 World Cup as an example, Argentina won it with Lionel Scaloni in charge, who had never been a club manager before. At the other end of the spectrum, Germany and Spain took treble winning coaches to the tournament and were both dreadful. Plenty of other examples too, including in our own history with Fabio Capello.
Also worth noting that while Southgate's in-game tactics are a weakness, he's made plenty of bold pre-game choices that paid off. Before the opening game of the Euros against Croatia, social media was in uproar at his choice to play Trippier at left back, yet it completely nullified Ivan Perisic's threat cutting in from the right. The formation switch against Germany was roundly criticised but it proved to be completely the correct decision as well.
I think it will naturally be time for a change in the summer but history will be a lot kinder to him than Twitter currently is. |
It's probably not a surprise he will get the defensive side right, he plays a system which is defence focused
I think where the criticism really is, is the offensive side of the game where we lack that extra bit of dynamism at times | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 23:38 - Mar 25 with 1065 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
I think the sooner people realise winning international tournaments is as much about being lucky as it is about being good and really, the manager doesn't matter too much.
Argentina won the World Cup with a novice manager and because they had Messi who was much better at playing football than everyone else was. They scraped through some fine margin games, won a couple on penalties.
Portugal won the euros despite finishing 3rd in their group and playing awfully throughout the whole tournament, them won the final being the lesser team with a manager who did his best work in the greek league.
In the World Cup just gone. England, much the better team vs France. Harry Kane misses a penalty to level the game which we may well have gone on to win, but im not sure how that defeat is on Southgate. My point is, I think you can appoint Potter, Howe, whoever you like. Im just not convinced it's important as people think given how little time the coaches actually spend with the team. All the games are such fine margins. [Post edited 25 Mar 23:40]
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 05:37 - Mar 26 with 1028 views | Ryorry |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 23:38 - Mar 25 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
I think the sooner people realise winning international tournaments is as much about being lucky as it is about being good and really, the manager doesn't matter too much.
Argentina won the World Cup with a novice manager and because they had Messi who was much better at playing football than everyone else was. They scraped through some fine margin games, won a couple on penalties.
Portugal won the euros despite finishing 3rd in their group and playing awfully throughout the whole tournament, them won the final being the lesser team with a manager who did his best work in the greek league.
In the World Cup just gone. England, much the better team vs France. Harry Kane misses a penalty to level the game which we may well have gone on to win, but im not sure how that defeat is on Southgate. My point is, I think you can appoint Potter, Howe, whoever you like. Im just not convinced it's important as people think given how little time the coaches actually spend with the team. All the games are such fine margins. [Post edited 25 Mar 23:40]
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Agree, we've seen in some of our own games how easy it is for the result to not accurately reflect the quality of the football that was played.
That's why promotion & relegation are decided on season-long consistency of playing every other side in the league twice, not on knock-out games culminating in a final.
Think of refereeing decisions too - if Maradonna's 'Hand of God' goal had been disallowed, eg. ... |  |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 08:45 - Mar 26 with 962 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 05:37 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
Agree, we've seen in some of our own games how easy it is for the result to not accurately reflect the quality of the football that was played.
That's why promotion & relegation are decided on season-long consistency of playing every other side in the league twice, not on knock-out games culminating in a final.
Think of refereeing decisions too - if Maradonna's 'Hand of God' goal had been disallowed, eg. ... |
Absolutely. There is nowhere to hide in a 38 or 46 game season. You get what you deserve.
I'm sure Southgate will get a decent job in club management and that will be the best way to judge his ability as a manager. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:11 - Mar 26 with 912 views | itfcsuth |
Let's be honest, he gets a lot of unfair stick, wildy unfair.
I think he has done a very good job for England - has built a united team, has taken us on some fantastic tournament trips.
The European championships was a fantastic journey, we ultimately fell just short of the fine margins, but it is so hard to win a major international tournament because so many nations are stacked with quality.
Qualifiers & friendlies are notoriously dull and drab, regardless of who is in charge, but when it comes to tournament football we have often given a really good account of ourselves and had some memorable days.
International football is largely dull overall anyway, it's only ever good for 4/5 weeks every 2 years. [Post edited 26 Mar 14:39]
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 20:49 - Mar 26 with 600 views | PioneerBlue |
It’s not really a hot take that he’s quite likely to leave the post after the Euros given his quite successful time leading Eng. Call it borrowed time if you prefer. | |
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| Southgate on borrowed time? on 09:15 - Mar 27 with 429 views | cooperd5 |
| Southgate on borrowed time? on 14:11 - Mar 26 by itfcsuth |
Let's be honest, he gets a lot of unfair stick, wildy unfair.
I think he has done a very good job for England - has built a united team, has taken us on some fantastic tournament trips.
The European championships was a fantastic journey, we ultimately fell just short of the fine margins, but it is so hard to win a major international tournament because so many nations are stacked with quality.
Qualifiers & friendlies are notoriously dull and drab, regardless of who is in charge, but when it comes to tournament football we have often given a really good account of ourselves and had some memorable days.
International football is largely dull overall anyway, it's only ever good for 4/5 weeks every 2 years. [Post edited 26 Mar 14:39]
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Yes he has built a group and done well but.... and its the crucial but, but he should have won in Euros v Italy but faltered and played it safe when the right thing to do was to go on and get the 2nd goal, and the 3rd using his young, fast and skillful attack force vs an aged Italian defence who could only wish for the pace of someone like Saka.
For me, this is his failing, he does not seize the moment to go on and win in style which is what we should do given the wealth of talent at his disposal. |  | | |
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