| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this 14:55 - Jun 10 with 14468 views | Mullet |
I can imagine if you’re one of their fans you’re attracted to losers, but imagine doing a staged bit to camera like this in your clubs colours.
Hopefully no far right Town fans would go on camera embarrassing the club like this! |  |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:31 - Jun 10 with 2285 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 17:35 - Jun 10 by Swansea_Blue |
"Reform seem to be the only party who are seriously addressing certain issues"
They're not addressing any issues. They're largely a protest movement. Even when they had some influence and a responsibility via their MEPs in their earlier guise as the Brexit Party, they pulled childish stunts in the European Parliament rather than work to improve the lives of European citizens.
The rest doesn't make any sense. |
Say what you like but they managed to get Brexit through and reached their goal in what they thought was serving European citizens in the UK, by getting us out of the EU. It doesn't matter whether you or I agree with their stances, we have to admit they were successful, hence the name change. |  | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:35 - Jun 10 with 2268 views | positivity |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:24 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
I've heard a lot of what Farage has said. You might not agree with him, but to call him a hate preacher sounds unhinged. Give some examples of what he said that is so offensive to you.
Did someone say that Farage is saying what everyone is thinking? He's definitely expressing views that are widely held and he will win a big proportion of the vote in the next election.
A lot of people say that we need proportional representation. I personally like the first past the post system. Parties away from the centre are there as bellwethers to lead the centre parties to the left or right depending on the mood in the country.
Some people make Farage out to be a hate-figure, so there is quite a strong force out there to keep him out of power. He has made deals with the Conservatives before. The Conservatives often move towards his way of thinking and convince their voters not to abandon them. People will vote for more extreme parties in the EU elections because there isn't that same concept of electing your direct representative.
I think he well win a seat this time. He was very successful with Brexit. Obviously he has a mixed record. |
if 0 wins in 7 is "mixed", paul hurst is a football genius!
stick to the football threads, rather than defending this idiotic hate-preacher | |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:45 - Jun 10 with 2244 views | Herbivore |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:24 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
I've heard a lot of what Farage has said. You might not agree with him, but to call him a hate preacher sounds unhinged. Give some examples of what he said that is so offensive to you.
Did someone say that Farage is saying what everyone is thinking? He's definitely expressing views that are widely held and he will win a big proportion of the vote in the next election.
A lot of people say that we need proportional representation. I personally like the first past the post system. Parties away from the centre are there as bellwethers to lead the centre parties to the left or right depending on the mood in the country.
Some people make Farage out to be a hate-figure, so there is quite a strong force out there to keep him out of power. He has made deals with the Conservatives before. The Conservatives often move towards his way of thinking and convince their voters not to abandon them. People will vote for more extreme parties in the EU elections because there isn't that same concept of electing your direct representative.
I think he well win a seat this time. He was very successful with Brexit. Obviously he has a mixed record. |
Here's some examples of things he's said (and done) that are offensive: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farages-most-controversial-moment |  |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:46 - Jun 10 with 2238 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 15:10 - Jun 10 by textbackup |
Far right 😂
[Post edited 10 Jun 2024 15:12]
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Funny how you don't mind a little bit racist now and again. |  |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:55 - Jun 10 with 2218 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:22 - Jun 10 by acj |
While clubs in England aren't generally associated with political parties or ideologies more generally, that's actually something fairly common in some other parts of the world. |
Very true. That is one way of doing things, but for me football is supposed to be inclusive of all types of people. Football brings all sorts of people together, whereas politics is divisive. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:59 - Jun 10 with 2209 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:35 - Jun 10 by positivity |
if 0 wins in 7 is "mixed", paul hurst is a football genius!
stick to the football threads, rather than defending this idiotic hate-preacher |
Keep the politics out of the football threads and I will gladly stay out off that cesspool!
Whether you agree with Brexit you have to give Farage credit for that achievement. If you are talking about general elections, his results have been dire not mixed, but his EU results have been good. So it is certainly fair to say he's had mixed results overall.
Stop telling me how to think about other people and show me what they have done or said and let me make my mind up. Until you give a good example, he's not a hate preacher! | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:16 - Jun 10 with 2169 views | Whos_blue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:59 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
Keep the politics out of the football threads and I will gladly stay out off that cesspool!
Whether you agree with Brexit you have to give Farage credit for that achievement. If you are talking about general elections, his results have been dire not mixed, but his EU results have been good. So it is certainly fair to say he's had mixed results overall.
Stop telling me how to think about other people and show me what they have done or said and let me make my mind up. Until you give a good example, he's not a hate preacher! |
You mention the achievement of Brexit.
I would have to admit to a bias towards remain, but I'm not sure even the most generous of brexiteers could point to too many achievements of brexit.
What do you think brexit has really achieved? |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:17 - Jun 10 with 2165 views | Mullet |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:13 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
"putting words in my mouth at every reply; same as everyone else you've replied to in this thread" that sounds like your stock answer. It's a tactic that fools people who don't bother to read things properly. If I respond it escalates, if I don't respond it looks like you shut me up. Just have a free and open conversation without trying to shut people down who say something that slightly challenges your views.
I don't live in England anymore, so I won't vote. I'd consider voting reform if I did. No one else is talking about reforming the NHS. The Conservatives didn't do anything about immigration really. I'm middle class, but I feel like there is no representation for the working class and middle class people like to label working class people racist and then ignore a problem.
In general, it's weird how far right is used to mean something abhorrent, but far left isn't. Both extremes are pretty bad. When I hear people talking about far right, what they actually mean is centre right or right. Farage isn't far right.
The reason I think that almost all Town fans are alright, is because almost all people are alright if you are not fascist about who you associate with. The main point is if you never get into politics you would never know if a Town fan is a abhorrent communist or an abhorrent fascist. |
How could it be a stock answer when it was a reply specifically to you, about what you have said throughout the thread.
The fact you're an immigrant yourself and I've answered you repeatedly despite how odd your replies get, makes all of this nonsense. I've no intent to "shut you up" or anyone else. You keep choosing to exploit your own deficiencies here.
I wouldn't label Nige anything but upper class, and the bloke in the video doesn't strike me as working class either. Only you seem to be mentioning class now, again changing tack.
I'm not being funny, you've still not explained why I should tolerate fascists if they arrive at the club I support. If someone made a video like this in Town clobber, I think we'd all have a pretty good idea about them - nothing else you've said really makes sense regardless of the tangents and embellishments. | |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:18 - Jun 10 with 2164 views | MattinLondon |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:31 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
Say what you like but they managed to get Brexit through and reached their goal in what they thought was serving European citizens in the UK, by getting us out of the EU. It doesn't matter whether you or I agree with their stances, we have to admit they were successful, hence the name change. |
Left to their own thoughts UKIP etc would never have achieved ‘success’. Murdoch, the Daily Mail etc all encouraged anti-EU sentiment by continuously publishing lie after lie with no second thought for proper journalism. Admittedly, Farage added that personal touch to it.
The BBC also encouraged such lies by pandering to Farage and having him on their shows.
Saying that, hate-preacher Farage is extremely charismatic and knows how to appeal to the masses. Something which mainstream politicians haves failed to achieve - Blair, probably being the last mainstream politician with that charisma.
Farage also knows how to follow the money as well as the headlines. All in all, he is a very savvy politician who has relied on the fears of a lot of people as well as racism to keep his stock up. It’s a pity that he didn’t use his people skills to actually achieve anything worthwhile for the country (as well as the ordinary person) rather than his own wallet. |  | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:42 - Jun 10 with 2094 views | positivity |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:59 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
Keep the politics out of the football threads and I will gladly stay out off that cesspool!
Whether you agree with Brexit you have to give Farage credit for that achievement. If you are talking about general elections, his results have been dire not mixed, but his EU results have been good. So it is certainly fair to say he's had mixed results overall.
Stop telling me how to think about other people and show me what they have done or said and let me make my mind up. Until you give a good example, he's not a hate preacher! |
herbivore linked an article which gave dozens of examples of hate-speech, that the hate-preacher farage has spewed out.
he wasn't the main architect of brexit, he'd have got nowhere without banks, cummings, the russian money and a (popular) populist like boris opportunistically switching sides
he's only ever been elected to europe as the lead ukip candidate on their slate in the pr system you claim to hate! | |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:43 - Jun 10 with 2088 views | Swansea_Blue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:31 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
Say what you like but they managed to get Brexit through and reached their goal in what they thought was serving European citizens in the UK, by getting us out of the EU. It doesn't matter whether you or I agree with their stances, we have to admit they were successful, hence the name change. |
It was the Tory party who took us out of the EU. They were running scared of Farage, but it’s not the same thing. UKIP/Brexit Party/Reform have never enacted any policy in the UK (or anywhere else). |  |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:46 - Jun 10 with 2071 views | Swansea_Blue |
On that basis, it’s a fair assumption that Col U wouldn’t be too happy with people who demonise refugees. | |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 20:08 - Jun 10 with 2041 views | BarcaBlue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:16 - Jun 10 by Whos_blue |
You mention the achievement of Brexit.
I would have to admit to a bias towards remain, but I'm not sure even the most generous of brexiteers could point to too many achievements of brexit.
What do you think brexit has really achieved? |
It did mean a whole swathe of union jack waving immigrants on the costas suddenly had to confront the irony of their situation. Possibly lost on them though, as it probably is on Farage apologists all over Europa. |  | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 20:15 - Jun 10 with 2025 views | Sharkey |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:46 - Jun 10 by Swansea_Blue |
On that basis, it’s a fair assumption that Col U wouldn’t be too happy with people who demonise refugees. |
I'm sure they wouldn't be thrilled, but it's not as if it was a member of staff. I'm sorry to say it, Colchester have had to apologise for much worse behaviour from (some of) their fans quite often, so this won't be a major concern.
Obviously Town have about ten times as many fans, maybe more, but on the whole the demographic isn't hugely different. There are some people you'd like to chat to if you found yourself camped next to them on holiday ... , and some you woudn't. (When I went to the Luton game pre-season, I was struck by how the crowd looked pretty much like the same people as usual,- just more of them and wearing different shirts.) |  | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 20:49 - Jun 10 with 1973 views | htb |
I see the oh so nice progressives are out in force as usual. Isn’t this meant to be football sight rather than a “far left” echo chamber. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 20:52 - Jun 10 with 1963 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 18:15 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
Waiter, I don't believe I ordered the word soup. |
Well thanks! I was going to go for the 'Waiter, can I have some dressing with that word salad please?" but you beat me to it!!!! |  |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 21:28 - Jun 10 with 1896 views | MattinLondon |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 20:49 - Jun 10 by htb |
I see the oh so nice progressives are out in force as usual. Isn’t this meant to be football sight rather than a “far left” echo chamber. |
The fact that you’re posting from a non ‘far left’ perspective proves that this site isn’t an echo chamber. Anyone is free to post regardless of political allegiances. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 21:49 - Jun 10 with 1848 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 15:10 - Jun 10 by textbackup |
Far right 😂
[Post edited 10 Jun 2024 15:12]
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Yep. He hasn't exactly tried to hide it over the years. |  |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 22:10 - Jun 10 with 1788 views | Europablue |
Thank you for giving some examples. I appreciate it that you did that.
To be clear, I'm not Farage. I'm not that invested in him at all, I don't think I've ever voted for him. I don't need to defend him. I definitely don't have hours to spend thinking about him and writing about him. My main point is that people say things that are clumsy and some people even venture into expressing things that are racist. The thing is you don't solve a problem like racism by ignoring the legitimate concerns that people have because you don't like the way they said it. Taking race out of it. Just look at Cornwall and Devon and all of the outsiders coming in and changing the character of place and pushing house prices up and not being as invested in the community as many of the people who have lived there for years. Of course there is a racist aspect, in general in the UK, but my point is, that isn't all it is. I don't live in England anymore, but people are being pushed out of my home town of Chelmsford by people coming from London, they have changed the character of the place there are a lot more West Ham shirts than Ipswich shirts, that feels like an invasion. Obviously, that is an emotional response and irrational as Chelmsford doesn't belong to Ipswich! It's also difficult to judge whether knife crime has become a problem in Chelmsford because that is a general trend these days, or because it has come from London. It is common connection to make between something bad and something unfamiliar. Sometimes it is rational and sometimes it is irrational and just not true.
Foreigners generally don't integrate especially when not forced to. I'll give you a small case study. I live in Germany. I work a lot and want my kids to learn English as well as German, so I still don't speak German fluently after many years trying and almost a year living here. I don't want to be German anyway. I appreciate that it must be annoying for Germans to see a foreigner who doesn't integrate properly even though I try a bit. It doesn't make you a bad person to want people to speak your language in your country.
I won't address everything on that list. The main note is that that writer doesn't actually know the meaning of racism is because he has just bundled everything in together. I suppose he means he means a list of Xenophobic comments and some unPC comments. Immigrants are not one race. He also bundles in some comments about Muslims. "Farage said he supported Muslim immigrants who “integrate” into society, but not those who are “coming here to take us over”" That comes across as a bit aggressive out of context, but if you haven't heard some Muslim extremists saying that English people aren't welcome on their streets, then you haven't been paying attention or you don't want to believe that there are bad eggs everywhere. Immigration is one thing, but you can't expect people to be tolerant of others who are expressly saying that they want to replace them.
I agree that you can't lump all Muslims in together, there are some upstanding citizens and some dangerous extremists (you could say far right). There are a lot in the middle who are exerting their more conservative culture in areas like Birmingham and pushing for LGBT views not to be taught in some cases. You may or may not agree with their views, but we can't deny that there is an influence there.
His comments about Romanians aren't racist, so maybe the list should be referring to bigoted views. Unfortunately, there is a major group of Romanian organized criminals especially in London often pickpockets. People often associate the only sample of a certain group and generalize out. People often think that English people are lager louts and football hooligans. Obviously, not all of either group are those things, but there are enough of them to create the stereotype. It would be irresponsible for a politician to further those stereotypes. There is no context for that comment, so it's difficult to come to solid conclusion. When you are in the EU you have to treat other EU citizens equally in your country, so you can't determine which people are allowed into your country you have to take the criminally inclined along with the doctors and teachers or whatever. Blaming immigrants for traffic jams was flippant. He was referring to an increase in population that was fueled by immigration, so obviously traffic is only exacerbated by immigration.
The thing about the word for Chinese people or Chinese food. There was a time when that wasn't considered offensive (probably, Chinese people weren't asked for their opinion on that). That was in the 90s as far as I know. There was no racist intent, even if it was insensitive. If he was still saying that in 2014, that seems pretty tone deaf. The concept of "politically correct" is evil, it's actually from the Chinese communists, but the motivation for us when we say PC (admittedly an offensive term), is to be considerate and polite. I personally think the difference is being told how to speak, rather than just being polite out of your own free will and courtesy.
Farage has certainly said some things that you find racist, that doesn't make him a racist. Racism is about intent. If you have offended someone you try to be polite next time.
I would call him a blow hard and insensitive. He's not my cup of tea either, but I won't discount what he is saying just because I don't like the way he is saying it.
I'm aware I've written an essay now. I won't get into it again as I've said enough and people will complain that I have posted too much and too often. I'll have to let you and others have the last word.
The underlying point is whether you like or dislike the messenger, you should still hear the message and addressing legitimate concerns is the way we stop people being radicalized. Farage serves a purpose. I think we have an uncouth messenger who many find odious, because it takes an obstinate boorish man to speak out and be heard when the ruling class don't want the ruled to be heard. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 22:23 - Jun 10 with 1778 views | Herbivore |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 22:10 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
Thank you for giving some examples. I appreciate it that you did that.
To be clear, I'm not Farage. I'm not that invested in him at all, I don't think I've ever voted for him. I don't need to defend him. I definitely don't have hours to spend thinking about him and writing about him. My main point is that people say things that are clumsy and some people even venture into expressing things that are racist. The thing is you don't solve a problem like racism by ignoring the legitimate concerns that people have because you don't like the way they said it. Taking race out of it. Just look at Cornwall and Devon and all of the outsiders coming in and changing the character of place and pushing house prices up and not being as invested in the community as many of the people who have lived there for years. Of course there is a racist aspect, in general in the UK, but my point is, that isn't all it is. I don't live in England anymore, but people are being pushed out of my home town of Chelmsford by people coming from London, they have changed the character of the place there are a lot more West Ham shirts than Ipswich shirts, that feels like an invasion. Obviously, that is an emotional response and irrational as Chelmsford doesn't belong to Ipswich! It's also difficult to judge whether knife crime has become a problem in Chelmsford because that is a general trend these days, or because it has come from London. It is common connection to make between something bad and something unfamiliar. Sometimes it is rational and sometimes it is irrational and just not true.
Foreigners generally don't integrate especially when not forced to. I'll give you a small case study. I live in Germany. I work a lot and want my kids to learn English as well as German, so I still don't speak German fluently after many years trying and almost a year living here. I don't want to be German anyway. I appreciate that it must be annoying for Germans to see a foreigner who doesn't integrate properly even though I try a bit. It doesn't make you a bad person to want people to speak your language in your country.
I won't address everything on that list. The main note is that that writer doesn't actually know the meaning of racism is because he has just bundled everything in together. I suppose he means he means a list of Xenophobic comments and some unPC comments. Immigrants are not one race. He also bundles in some comments about Muslims. "Farage said he supported Muslim immigrants who “integrate” into society, but not those who are “coming here to take us over”" That comes across as a bit aggressive out of context, but if you haven't heard some Muslim extremists saying that English people aren't welcome on their streets, then you haven't been paying attention or you don't want to believe that there are bad eggs everywhere. Immigration is one thing, but you can't expect people to be tolerant of others who are expressly saying that they want to replace them.
I agree that you can't lump all Muslims in together, there are some upstanding citizens and some dangerous extremists (you could say far right). There are a lot in the middle who are exerting their more conservative culture in areas like Birmingham and pushing for LGBT views not to be taught in some cases. You may or may not agree with their views, but we can't deny that there is an influence there.
His comments about Romanians aren't racist, so maybe the list should be referring to bigoted views. Unfortunately, there is a major group of Romanian organized criminals especially in London often pickpockets. People often associate the only sample of a certain group and generalize out. People often think that English people are lager louts and football hooligans. Obviously, not all of either group are those things, but there are enough of them to create the stereotype. It would be irresponsible for a politician to further those stereotypes. There is no context for that comment, so it's difficult to come to solid conclusion. When you are in the EU you have to treat other EU citizens equally in your country, so you can't determine which people are allowed into your country you have to take the criminally inclined along with the doctors and teachers or whatever. Blaming immigrants for traffic jams was flippant. He was referring to an increase in population that was fueled by immigration, so obviously traffic is only exacerbated by immigration.
The thing about the word for Chinese people or Chinese food. There was a time when that wasn't considered offensive (probably, Chinese people weren't asked for their opinion on that). That was in the 90s as far as I know. There was no racist intent, even if it was insensitive. If he was still saying that in 2014, that seems pretty tone deaf. The concept of "politically correct" is evil, it's actually from the Chinese communists, but the motivation for us when we say PC (admittedly an offensive term), is to be considerate and polite. I personally think the difference is being told how to speak, rather than just being polite out of your own free will and courtesy.
Farage has certainly said some things that you find racist, that doesn't make him a racist. Racism is about intent. If you have offended someone you try to be polite next time.
I would call him a blow hard and insensitive. He's not my cup of tea either, but I won't discount what he is saying just because I don't like the way he is saying it.
I'm aware I've written an essay now. I won't get into it again as I've said enough and people will complain that I have posted too much and too often. I'll have to let you and others have the last word.
The underlying point is whether you like or dislike the messenger, you should still hear the message and addressing legitimate concerns is the way we stop people being radicalized. Farage serves a purpose. I think we have an uncouth messenger who many find odious, because it takes an obstinate boorish man to speak out and be heard when the ruling class don't want the ruled to be heard. |
What a load of boll0cks. Repeating some dodgy tropes you've repeated before all over again and doing the whole "I'm not defending Farage" while writing an essay defending him. Give over, I can see what you are. | |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 07:34 - Jun 11 with 1650 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:17 - Jun 10 by Mullet |
How could it be a stock answer when it was a reply specifically to you, about what you have said throughout the thread.
The fact you're an immigrant yourself and I've answered you repeatedly despite how odd your replies get, makes all of this nonsense. I've no intent to "shut you up" or anyone else. You keep choosing to exploit your own deficiencies here.
I wouldn't label Nige anything but upper class, and the bloke in the video doesn't strike me as working class either. Only you seem to be mentioning class now, again changing tack.
I'm not being funny, you've still not explained why I should tolerate fascists if they arrive at the club I support. If someone made a video like this in Town clobber, I think we'd all have a pretty good idea about them - nothing else you've said really makes sense regardless of the tangents and embellishments. |
I don't know where the fascist thing has come from. That video is just a guy in a Col U top shaking hands with Farage. A fascist is someone who shuts down free speech with violence. Farage is absolutely not doing that. He has suffered intimidation with having stuff thrown at him
I never said you should tolerate fascists or even Communists that arrive at the club you support. The thing is you don't seem to be able to identify fascists. So if it is just people saying stuff that you don't like, then you have the right to express your dislike for what they are saying peacefully, but you don't just get to shut them down. The only way you get free speech is by allowing others to have theirs too. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 08:19 - Jun 11 with 1628 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:16 - Jun 10 by Whos_blue |
You mention the achievement of Brexit.
I would have to admit to a bias towards remain, but I'm not sure even the most generous of brexiteers could point to too many achievements of brexit.
What do you think brexit has really achieved? |
The main achievement of Brexit is that it happened at all. The concept of Brexit is only to bring power back to the UK. How that power is wielded is an entirely different matter.
I voted remain because whilst I agree with the concept of having our own sovereignty, there are a huge minority (especially in the political class) who I knew would work hard to water things down and make sure Brexit will never be that successful. It was also more convenient for me to remain as I live in the EU.
I truly believe that Brexit could be very successful if we all pulled in the same direction. We have a toxic individuality in the UK to the point where it's impossible to get anything done. In a way that is good, because we can only make incremental changes or when there is mass consensus on an issue. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 08:27 - Jun 11 with 1616 views | Swansea_Blue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 22:10 - Jun 10 by Europablue |
Thank you for giving some examples. I appreciate it that you did that.
To be clear, I'm not Farage. I'm not that invested in him at all, I don't think I've ever voted for him. I don't need to defend him. I definitely don't have hours to spend thinking about him and writing about him. My main point is that people say things that are clumsy and some people even venture into expressing things that are racist. The thing is you don't solve a problem like racism by ignoring the legitimate concerns that people have because you don't like the way they said it. Taking race out of it. Just look at Cornwall and Devon and all of the outsiders coming in and changing the character of place and pushing house prices up and not being as invested in the community as many of the people who have lived there for years. Of course there is a racist aspect, in general in the UK, but my point is, that isn't all it is. I don't live in England anymore, but people are being pushed out of my home town of Chelmsford by people coming from London, they have changed the character of the place there are a lot more West Ham shirts than Ipswich shirts, that feels like an invasion. Obviously, that is an emotional response and irrational as Chelmsford doesn't belong to Ipswich! It's also difficult to judge whether knife crime has become a problem in Chelmsford because that is a general trend these days, or because it has come from London. It is common connection to make between something bad and something unfamiliar. Sometimes it is rational and sometimes it is irrational and just not true.
Foreigners generally don't integrate especially when not forced to. I'll give you a small case study. I live in Germany. I work a lot and want my kids to learn English as well as German, so I still don't speak German fluently after many years trying and almost a year living here. I don't want to be German anyway. I appreciate that it must be annoying for Germans to see a foreigner who doesn't integrate properly even though I try a bit. It doesn't make you a bad person to want people to speak your language in your country.
I won't address everything on that list. The main note is that that writer doesn't actually know the meaning of racism is because he has just bundled everything in together. I suppose he means he means a list of Xenophobic comments and some unPC comments. Immigrants are not one race. He also bundles in some comments about Muslims. "Farage said he supported Muslim immigrants who “integrate” into society, but not those who are “coming here to take us over”" That comes across as a bit aggressive out of context, but if you haven't heard some Muslim extremists saying that English people aren't welcome on their streets, then you haven't been paying attention or you don't want to believe that there are bad eggs everywhere. Immigration is one thing, but you can't expect people to be tolerant of others who are expressly saying that they want to replace them.
I agree that you can't lump all Muslims in together, there are some upstanding citizens and some dangerous extremists (you could say far right). There are a lot in the middle who are exerting their more conservative culture in areas like Birmingham and pushing for LGBT views not to be taught in some cases. You may or may not agree with their views, but we can't deny that there is an influence there.
His comments about Romanians aren't racist, so maybe the list should be referring to bigoted views. Unfortunately, there is a major group of Romanian organized criminals especially in London often pickpockets. People often associate the only sample of a certain group and generalize out. People often think that English people are lager louts and football hooligans. Obviously, not all of either group are those things, but there are enough of them to create the stereotype. It would be irresponsible for a politician to further those stereotypes. There is no context for that comment, so it's difficult to come to solid conclusion. When you are in the EU you have to treat other EU citizens equally in your country, so you can't determine which people are allowed into your country you have to take the criminally inclined along with the doctors and teachers or whatever. Blaming immigrants for traffic jams was flippant. He was referring to an increase in population that was fueled by immigration, so obviously traffic is only exacerbated by immigration.
The thing about the word for Chinese people or Chinese food. There was a time when that wasn't considered offensive (probably, Chinese people weren't asked for their opinion on that). That was in the 90s as far as I know. There was no racist intent, even if it was insensitive. If he was still saying that in 2014, that seems pretty tone deaf. The concept of "politically correct" is evil, it's actually from the Chinese communists, but the motivation for us when we say PC (admittedly an offensive term), is to be considerate and polite. I personally think the difference is being told how to speak, rather than just being polite out of your own free will and courtesy.
Farage has certainly said some things that you find racist, that doesn't make him a racist. Racism is about intent. If you have offended someone you try to be polite next time.
I would call him a blow hard and insensitive. He's not my cup of tea either, but I won't discount what he is saying just because I don't like the way he is saying it.
I'm aware I've written an essay now. I won't get into it again as I've said enough and people will complain that I have posted too much and too often. I'll have to let you and others have the last word.
The underlying point is whether you like or dislike the messenger, you should still hear the message and addressing legitimate concerns is the way we stop people being radicalized. Farage serves a purpose. I think we have an uncouth messenger who many find odious, because it takes an obstinate boorish man to speak out and be heard when the ruling class don't want the ruled to be heard. |
I’m pretty sure Farage is a racist. He’s used racist tropes, demonises (‘others’) people from other ethnicities and has supported racist organisations. He tries to distance himself, but he knows what he’s doing. At best he’s spreading fears based on race to court and embolden racists and xenophobes. That shouldn’t be acceptable.
I’m not sure the argument over whether he’s a facist or not is particularly useful or needed (nor for that mislead Col U supporter). What’s a fascist these days? And isn’t the fact he weaponises immigrants enough evidence to prove he’s a wrong’un? He’s not alone there unfortunately and now a number of current mainstream politicians operate similarly.
He’s a polariser and disruptor, spreading division and undermining order. Some people may say that’s what’s needed, but then what comes next once he’s wound up the mob? We’re then into the sort of place Trump took his supporters when they stormed the Capitol. | |
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| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 08:33 - Jun 11 with 1607 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:18 - Jun 10 by MattinLondon |
Left to their own thoughts UKIP etc would never have achieved ‘success’. Murdoch, the Daily Mail etc all encouraged anti-EU sentiment by continuously publishing lie after lie with no second thought for proper journalism. Admittedly, Farage added that personal touch to it.
The BBC also encouraged such lies by pandering to Farage and having him on their shows.
Saying that, hate-preacher Farage is extremely charismatic and knows how to appeal to the masses. Something which mainstream politicians haves failed to achieve - Blair, probably being the last mainstream politician with that charisma.
Farage also knows how to follow the money as well as the headlines. All in all, he is a very savvy politician who has relied on the fears of a lot of people as well as racism to keep his stock up. It’s a pity that he didn’t use his people skills to actually achieve anything worthwhile for the country (as well as the ordinary person) rather than his own wallet. |
There is no need for lies or propaganda. The concept of having our own sovereignty is a very compelling argument.
The other compelling argument was that we can achieve more as part of something or at least constrain the worst excesses. It wasn't a clear cut choice, hence it was a very close fought campaign.
You can point to some newspapers, but Brexit was incredibly anti-establishment. You had all the major parties recommending a remain vote and the BBC, Guardian, Independent, etc. all have an extreme left-wing bias and publish misleading statements and lies. Both sides did/do. You'd have to be incredibly biased or crazy to state that the Guardian is unbiased whilst the Telegraph is biased. The newspapers are allowed to be biased, but the BBC is supposed to be for all of us.
There are a spectrum of acceptable parties including the centrist parties of Labour and the Conservatives, to the more extremes on each side of the socialists and Reform (or whatever they call themselves) on the fringes with heinous parties that should be banned on both sides of the Fascists and Communists. People who are attracted to the extremes try to find a place in the more mainstream parties and the fringe parties. You should judge those parties on how they deal with people who hold controversial and/or disgusting views both on being too censorious and too permissive. | | | |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 08:38 - Jun 11 with 1600 views | Europablue |
| I bet Col Who are chuffed about this on 19:42 - Jun 10 by positivity |
herbivore linked an article which gave dozens of examples of hate-speech, that the hate-preacher farage has spewed out.
he wasn't the main architect of brexit, he'd have got nowhere without banks, cummings, the russian money and a (popular) populist like boris opportunistically switching sides
he's only ever been elected to europe as the lead ukip candidate on their slate in the pr system you claim to hate! |
"the pr system you claim to hate". No that's would be the PR system that you claim that I hate. I said that I disagree with it. I'm fine with people holding the view that PR is a better system, I just disagree. There is no need to be so extreme and make everything about hate.
Maybe I'm more tolerant of the extremes on both sides and allow more speech and maybe you are more controlling. There is a debate to be had there because we can't be tolerant of everything and we can't ban everything. | | | |
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