| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:42 - Jul 24 with 2020 views | Blueschev |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:35 - Jul 24 by DJR |
You appear to me to be straying into conspiracy theory territory if you think Corbyn is controlling what is going on. Or do you think John McDonnell doesn't have a mind of his own? [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 10:37]
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Corbyn couldn't control what was going on when he was party leader, John McDonnell probably had more influence over him than vice-versa. To imply that these MPs are his loyal stooges obeying his every command is utter fantasy. |  | |  |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:48 - Jul 24 with 1984 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:40 - Jul 24 by blueasfook |
No, but having had their asses kicked by Labour in Scotland they'll certainly have an agenda of making life hard for the Labour govt. You really think the motion was put forward out of genuine concern for children in poverty or a political gambit designed to test party unity and see where the battle lines lie? You're naive if you think the former. |
The SNP support the abolition of the two-child benefit but don't have the power in Scotland to do anything about it. This was their opportunity (they have many fewer now because they are the fourth party) to raise the issue because the backbench Labour amendment on the issue wasn't selected. And as regards your alternatives, it is perfectly possibly for both to be true, as well as being an opportunity to embarrass the Labour government. As it is, when does a political party ever do anything which isn't partly political? [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 10:52]
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:27 - Jul 24 with 1921 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:48 - Jul 24 by DJR |
The SNP support the abolition of the two-child benefit but don't have the power in Scotland to do anything about it. This was their opportunity (they have many fewer now because they are the fourth party) to raise the issue because the backbench Labour amendment on the issue wasn't selected. And as regards your alternatives, it is perfectly possibly for both to be true, as well as being an opportunity to embarrass the Labour government. As it is, when does a political party ever do anything which isn't partly political? [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 10:52]
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Although it's true to say that the SNP don't have the power to scrap the legislation for the 2 child cap they do have the power to provide top-up payments to stop the cap affecting Scotland. The Scottish government already used these powers to stop the bedroom tax having an impact in Scotland.
So once again the SNP were playing politics. |  |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:37 - Jul 24 with 1891 views | DJR |
Not sure this is good politics. It's the main headline in the Guardian, and has had a much higher profile than if they hadn't been expelled, because they could have just put the matter down to the usual suspects.
And this from Sky is not a good look.
Saul Staniforth@SaulStaniforth·3h
Less than 3 weeks into the new govt & Labour refuse to put up a minister for the morning media round. [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 11:38]
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:39 - Jul 24 with 1877 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:27 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Although it's true to say that the SNP don't have the power to scrap the legislation for the 2 child cap they do have the power to provide top-up payments to stop the cap affecting Scotland. The Scottish government already used these powers to stop the bedroom tax having an impact in Scotland.
So once again the SNP were playing politics. |
Shock, horror, probe! A political party plays politics.
As it is, the Scottish government has had to eat into Scottish resources to do what you say, when a UK wide answer would not cost them anything. | | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:41 - Jul 24 with 1856 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:39 - Jul 24 by DJR |
Shock, horror, probe! A political party plays politics.
As it is, the Scottish government has had to eat into Scottish resources to do what you say, when a UK wide answer would not cost them anything. |
That doesn't make a very good case for independence. | |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:46 - Jul 24 with 1821 views | ElephantintheRoom |
If only the last five conservative prime ministers had had the moral fibre to stand up to showboating extremists within. |  |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:48 - Jul 24 with 1821 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:41 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
That doesn't make a very good case for independence. |
Independence is a different issue, and isn't plain-sailing, but the SNP have to make do with the current set-up and do not have control of all the levers. [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 11:49]
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:55 - Jul 24 with 1783 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:48 - Jul 24 by DJR |
Independence is a different issue, and isn't plain-sailing, but the SNP have to make do with the current set-up and do not have control of all the levers. [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 11:49]
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So the SNP could technically reverse the 2 child cap but that would be costly as they would have to make cuts in other areas. Welcome to the real world. | |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 12:29 - Jul 24 with 1720 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:35 - Jul 24 by DJR |
You appear to me to be straying into conspiracy theory territory if you think Corbyn is controlling what is going on. Or do you think John McDonnell doesn't have a mind of his own? [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 10:37]
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It's the dual loyalty trop in the list of examples. |  |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 14:03 - Jul 24 with 1653 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:55 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
So the SNP could technically reverse the 2 child cap but that would be costly as they would have to make cuts in other areas. Welcome to the real world. |
The real world is one in which the SNP don't have control of UK fiscal policy and can't increase various taxes such as CGT and VAT to pay for things.
The Liberal Democrats, who could in theory form a UK-wide government, proposed various such tax rises, some of which paid for the removal of the cap. [Post edited 24 Jul 2024 14:07]
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 15:45 - Jul 24 with 1588 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 07:59 - Jul 24 by DJR |
Personally, I don't think they want to lift the cap because it would be portrayed in the right wing press as supporting the feckless, and the commission is a way of kicking it into the long grass and coming up with some other way of trying to deal with it or fudge it.
[Post edited 24 Jul 2024 8:01]
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Polling just a few days ago indicates that the public by 60% to 28% support the two-child benefit limit, and even among Labour voters it's 50% to 38%.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50140-public-support-retaining-the-two-ch
This, and focus groups, may well be driving Labour reluctance to remove the limit. | | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 16:11 - Jul 24 with 1561 views | thebooks |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:55 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
So the SNP could technically reverse the 2 child cap but that would be costly as they would have to make cuts in other areas. Welcome to the real world. |
Scotland has free school meals for years 1-5 and scrapped no fault evictions in 2017. It implemented the Scottish Child Payment to partly mitiagte the UK govt’s policies, but obviously it can only do so much in its own.
https://www.mygov.scot/scottish-child-payment
The child poverty rate in Scotland is 7% lower than England. |  | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 16:42 - Jul 24 with 1514 views | Parsley |
If they want to oppose the government by voting for an amendment to the King's speech (based on the manifesto they were just elected on!), then they can sit in the opposition benches. I really don't think it's that controversial.
I'm supportive of scrapping the two-child cap, but Labour have been pretty clear that wasn't an immediate priority for them and they want to focus on growth and fixing the economy so that they can afford to do things like that in the future. |  | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:22 - Jul 24 with 1471 views | Hiphopopotamus |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:55 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
So the SNP could technically reverse the 2 child cap but that would be costly as they would have to make cuts in other areas. Welcome to the real world. |
MAKING CUTS IS THE ONLY WAY TO RAISE MONEY AFTER ALL!!!! |  | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:29 - Jul 24 with 1460 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:22 - Jul 24 by Hiphopopotamus |
MAKING CUTS IS THE ONLY WAY TO RAISE MONEY AFTER ALL!!!! |
Somebody has rediscovered their dormant login. Div listed to save the agro. | |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:35 - Jul 24 with 1436 views | Hiphopopotamus |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:29 - Jul 24 by GlasgowBlue |
Somebody has rediscovered their dormant login. Div listed to save the agro. |
EXCELLENT!!!! JUST LIKE STARMER DIV LISTED THE SEVEN MPS!!!! | | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:37 - Jul 24 with 1431 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 07:54 - Jul 24 by bluelagos |
Circumstances change.
Not all pregnancies are planned.
Your judgemental sneering at those in poverty shows a lack of empathy that is quite enlightening.
Being a tw*t is a choice too. |
They have a point about all those selfish people who choose to have triplets without a thought for the public purse, though. | | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 21:22 - Jul 24 with 1296 views | BlueForYou |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 10:07 - Jul 24 by blueasfook |
I think Lowie is correct in that Keir is clearly laying down a marker and letting pro-Corbyn (and let's be honest, that's what it's about) rebels know that their nonsense wont be tolerated. I am surprised Dianne Abbott wasn't part of that little gang. She's clearly wised up and decided to play it safe. |
She was unwell apparently so didn’t attend. Said sh3 would have voted with the Seven & there was one other also, so it’s Nine not Seven. |  | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 22:05 - Jul 24 with 1259 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 20:35 - Jul 23 by DJR |
I don't recall any Labour MP ever being suspended for voting against a Labour government. Jeremy Corbyn is perhaps the most famous example of this.
And John McDonnell voted as he did on the basis he put country before party, just as Starmer says is important. [Post edited 23 Jul 2024 20:37]
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This was not the same. Here they have voted against the kings speech. I.e. the template for this labour govt during the parliament.
The Govt. Has signalled that it aims to address inequalities and a more grown up approach would be to hold off to see how they set about this. A good number of labour MPs are doing just that. If labour just scatter money in the first few months in power they will get pilloried for making unfunded promises etc.
instead of grandstanding the Corbyn tinged usual suspects should give them time and judge them on what they do over the next twelve months or so.
I accept that If they then fail to deliver they will have more rebels across the party. |  | | |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 07:16 - Jul 25 with 1145 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 17:37 - Jul 24 by ArnoldMoorhen |
They have a point about all those selfish people who choose to have triplets without a thought for the public purse, though. |
But triplets are exempt from the cap (someone having them would receive the benefit for all 3 children, or 2 of them if they already had 2 or more kids) so that example doesnt make sense |  |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 08:29 - Jul 25 with 1078 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 22:05 - Jul 24 by Crawfordsboot |
This was not the same. Here they have voted against the kings speech. I.e. the template for this labour govt during the parliament.
The Govt. Has signalled that it aims to address inequalities and a more grown up approach would be to hold off to see how they set about this. A good number of labour MPs are doing just that. If labour just scatter money in the first few months in power they will get pilloried for making unfunded promises etc.
instead of grandstanding the Corbyn tinged usual suspects should give them time and judge them on what they do over the next twelve months or so.
I accept that If they then fail to deliver they will have more rebels across the party. |
They didn't vote against the King's Speech, they voted for an amendment to it.
As it is, the King's Speech and the debate on it is one of those meaningless charades, common in Parliament, which doesn't change a thing because it is not like a Bill which changes the law.
What Labour has done is designed to ensure that no Labour MP ever votes against the government, which seems to me a chilling thing to do in a democracy and inconsistent with the fact that MPs have a conscience and derive their authority from their constituents. And as Michael Crick has pointed out a government which tries to eliminate different opinions will end up making wrong decisions.
Given this, I am very surprised by the cavalier attitude of many people to what has happened because even Tony Blair didn't suspend the whip for those who voted against his government. [Post edited 25 Jul 2024 8:33]
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:51 - Jul 25 with 989 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 08:29 - Jul 25 by DJR |
They didn't vote against the King's Speech, they voted for an amendment to it.
As it is, the King's Speech and the debate on it is one of those meaningless charades, common in Parliament, which doesn't change a thing because it is not like a Bill which changes the law.
What Labour has done is designed to ensure that no Labour MP ever votes against the government, which seems to me a chilling thing to do in a democracy and inconsistent with the fact that MPs have a conscience and derive their authority from their constituents. And as Michael Crick has pointed out a government which tries to eliminate different opinions will end up making wrong decisions.
Given this, I am very surprised by the cavalier attitude of many people to what has happened because even Tony Blair didn't suspend the whip for those who voted against his government. [Post edited 25 Jul 2024 8:33]
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The seven who rebelled stood, and were elected, on a manifesto at a General Election just three weeks ago. Lifting the 2 child cap is £3billion worth of spending which wasn't included or costed in that manifesto and it doesn't have majority support from the people who voted Labour on on the basis of that manifesto as per your previous post.
They forfeited the right to hold the Labour whip. | |
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| Control-freakery gone mad on 12:08 - Jul 25 with 949 views | DJR |
| Control-freakery gone mad on 11:51 - Jul 25 by GlasgowBlue |
The seven who rebelled stood, and were elected, on a manifesto at a General Election just three weeks ago. Lifting the 2 child cap is £3billion worth of spending which wasn't included or costed in that manifesto and it doesn't have majority support from the people who voted Labour on on the basis of that manifesto as per your previous post.
They forfeited the right to hold the Labour whip. |
I didn't realise you were such an authoritarian! | | | |
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