Forum | Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel by carlisleaway

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Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel 09:24 - Aug 18 with 26556 views

carlisleaway

We went through the whole Championship without kneeling, surely this is not required

-55

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:10 - Aug 19 with 2947 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 16:52 - Aug 19 by Cafe_Newman

"No-one's been humiliated."
How do you know? If I had to kneel in respect for something which went against by beliefs I would find the process quite humiliating. If all football players are doing it and no one is feeling humiliated, that's great as it suggests we don't have a problem with racism in English football - among the players at least.

"And as I explained above, it's about the wider picture. Putting it out there, in the public eye, in a variety of ways (of which taking the knee is just one) so that it gets into the public consciousness. And then, over time, attitudes change."
I agree that attitudes and cultures change slowly over time. But ask yourself, is it working? I hope it is but I question whether recent events suggest that? I have my doubts. I don't believe the likes of SYL and Nigel Farage are creating racists but rather sustaining racism and appealing to the beliefs of those who already hold racist views, for political ends. Players have been "taking the knee" for four years. Again, I question if it's working.

"I really don't see how taking the knee makes things worse".
Then read my last post again.

"It seems like you're trying a bit too hard to find a way to discredit it."
Not at all, I'm finding it very easy to suggest that it may not be a great thing to do in an effort to combat racism. You hold a different opinion. If you can demonstrate to me that it's effective and it's not a polarising gesture which is likely to entrench racist attitudes and behaviours, I'll change my opinion without hesitation.

"If I had to kneel in respect for something which went against my beliefs"
You think there are racist footballers who want the right to continue being racist?!?
Surely anti-racism shouldn't be against ANYONE'S beliefs?!?

Four years isn't long enough to change beliefs. Try decades. And as I've said (several times) it's not just about if taking the knee is working - it's the full package of things which are done to show racism is wrong/these (famous) people disagree with racism.

If these measures don't help change attitudes over time then maybe you should suggest some ideas to the powers that be. For me, taking the knee is just a very small gesture that shouldn't really upset anyone too much. And anyone it does bother, I'd question their motives. Do you actually want to make a stand against racism or would you rather people just shut up about it?

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:28 - Aug 19 with 2908 views

Ryorry

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 14:51 - Aug 19 by PassionNotAnger

I think the OP is getting a lot of stick and people are missing the public service being provided by:

A, Highlighting the overt racists and idiots upvoting it (regrettably my accidental initial upvote makes me an idiot but not a racist).
B, Demonstrating those who are prepared to stand up to bigotry, prejudice and racism by downvoting it
C, Showing the notable posters absent of comment or voting who perhaps don’t have the courage of their convictions.

Still, good opportunity for Phil to sell the data on up voters to Reform so that check they haven’t missed any supporters off their database

Re your points B. & C. - sorry, but I don't think it's acceptable to label people based on those things - in fact doing so could in itself be seen as discriminatory.

Few people have time to open every thread, some may not have internet access whilst on hol, others might steer clear of hot topics generally because they don'want to get embroiled in arguments, others dislike downvoting, or voting at all. Others maybe dislike 'pile-ons' & feel that once -20 has been reached, the point's been sufficiently made. Etc.


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Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:47 - Aug 19 with 2856 views

tcblue

I've skim read the first page of this bin fire, did we get somewhere with the Salah thing? Like if I get a job paying £350,000 per week I no longer get affected by racism?

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:20 - Aug 19 with 2796 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:10 - Aug 19 by The_Flashing_Smile

I have an adopted black African sister. She was quite a rarity in rural Suffolk in the 70's I can tell you. Growing up, we never talked about skin colour to the point that we didn't see it any longer. I have no idea how long that process took, I was busy growing up in a family and not talking or thinking about skin colour. We only "saw" it when others behaved badly or unusually towards her and to us. I also married a British Asian woman so my kids are part Asian.

In answer to your point "and anyone it does bother, I'd question their motives" I would say that my experiences of feel uncomfortable with race is when people bring attention to it because then people start to "see" it.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:21 - Aug 19 with 2795 views

PassionNotAnger

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:01 - Aug 19 by Cafe_Newman
It's only until quite recently that we scorned regimes where the things you are suggesting are done as a matter of course.

What “things” am I suggesting?

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:31 - Aug 19 with 2768 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:10 - Aug 19 by The_Flashing_Smile

I'm posting a second reply to your post because I didn't want that first part to be lost in a lot of text. Here are my views on the rest of your post:

Totally agree that anti-racism shouldn't be against anyone's beliefs. 100%

"You think there are racist footballers who want the right to continue being racist?!? "
I suspect there are some racists who are in denial or ignorant of the impact of their views and actions who feel uncomfortable about taking the knee. I think that's good, I want racists to feel uncomfortable if it changes racist views and actions. Taking the knee may in fact be very effective at confronting racism. I hope it is. All I can say is that my adult (mixed race kids) feel uncomfortable about seeing players taking the knee. There are many reasons for this which I'm happy to talk about.

I agree 4 years isn't enough. I'm not sure decades is enough either while we have politicians who use racism to advance their political ends. Those who shape our society will always employ tools of divide and conquer, race is one of those tools. For this tool to be effective, a constant background racism has to exist so that it can be whipped up when required. I find it difficult to understand why people struggle to see that.

"f these measures don't help change attitudes over time then maybe you should suggest some ideas to the powers that be."
Like I said, the powers that be need racism to exist.

"Do you actually want to make a stand against racism or would you rather people just shut up about it?"
It's a complicated question. Racism has no place in our society but as I have already said, it's a necessary part of politics as a tool for divide and rule. It will never go away as long as we have the powers that be that use racism for such purposes.

That said, we must continually work against racism so that it can no longer be used in this way. A lot of what is shown on TV does a really great job at normalising a multi-racial society: TV adverts (especially at Xmas) and soap operas are good examples. In short, because I've already spent too much time trying to make you understand, is we should not ignore it, we should actively work to make skin colour irrelevant and invisible.

Your intentions are good and so are mine. I speak from first hand experience of a multi-cultural family for nearly 50 years. Do you?

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:35 - Aug 19 with 2750 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:21 - Aug 19 by PassionNotAnger
What “things” am I suggesting?

Visible approval or disapproval of online opinion (and even non opinion) being used for purposes other than just giving or withholding an opinion.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:49 - Aug 19 with 2714 views

The_Flashing_Smile

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:31 - Aug 19 by Cafe_Newman

Thanks for your detailed responses and no, I don't have a multi-cultural family, just a desire to do the right thing (and support others doing the right thing).

Trust the process. Trust Phil.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:13 - Aug 19 with 2676 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:49 - Aug 19 by The_Flashing_Smile
Thanks for your detailed responses and no, I don't have a multi-cultural family, just a desire to do the right thing (and support others doing the right thing).

Thank you for your reply.

I deliberately tried not to go into details (at first) but preferred to allude to my feelings and the feelings of my family. In a way, you forced my hand with two comments:

"It seems like you're trying a bit too hard to find a way to discredit it" and
"And anyone it does bother, I'd question their motives."

On reflection I'm glad you did push me into clarifying because it gave me an opportunity to articulate the reasons why I generally prefer to make racism "not a thing" for the reasons I described earlier.

If anyone other than the two of us is still reading this thread, the next time they see anyone taking the knee at a match I would like them to consider:

Is shining a light on race the best way to make it irrelevant?

The answer to that question will change depending on political climate and other circumstances, but the answer for me is usually "not always".

[Post edited 19 Aug 2024 19:15]

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:20 - Aug 19 with 2659 views

tcblue

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:13 - Aug 19 by Cafe_Newman

[Post edited 19 Aug 2024 19:15]

Shining a light on racism isn't the same as shining a light on race; it isn't just black players taking a knee

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:30 - Aug 19 with 2602 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:20 - Aug 19 by tcblue
Shining a light on racism isn't the same as shining a light on race; it isn't just black players taking a knee

And it's probably easier for a non-white person to abstain from taking the knee:

https://news.sky.com/story/footballers-taking-the-knee-isnt-going-to-change-anyt

Without sounding like a stuck record I suggest you read my posts at 18:20 and 18:31.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:36 - Aug 19 with 2573 views

tcblue

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 19:30 - Aug 19 by Cafe_Newman
And it's probably easier for a non-white person to abstain from taking the knee: https://news.sky.com/story/footballers-taking-the-knee-isnt-going-to-change-anyt Without sounding like a stuck record I suggest you read my posts at 18:20 and 18:31.

Well, it's still a talking point and bringing out racists. Football might not be able to stop racism but I didn't go to the football in the 80s for the points John Barnes makes, and I didn't go out a few weeks ago for similar reasons.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 22:21 - Aug 19 with 2494 views

Coastalblue

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:31 - Aug 19 by Cafe_Newman

I was very interested to read your response there, and as somebody who's not affected and therefore unlikely to see all of the nuances, can I ask why your kids feel uncomfortable seeing players take the knee?

	No idea when I began here, was a very long time ago. Previously known as Spirit_of_81. Love cheese, hate the colour of it, this is why it requires some blue in it.
Poll:	If someone promised you promotion next season, would you think

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 10:54 - Aug 20 with 2318 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 22:21 - Aug 19 by Coastalblue
I was very interested to read your response there, and as somebody who's not affected and therefore unlikely to see all of the nuances, can I ask why your kids feel uncomfortable seeing players take the knee?

I guess I could spend a week answering that question because it is so complex. Racism is expressed in different ways by different people at different times and in varying intensities. And different minorities perceive and deal with situations differently, even at an individual level because every family deals with it differently based on their own experiences and upbringing.

Excuse the overuse of the word "different", but it's done intentionally.

I suppose I could boil it down to two main areas:

1. "Drawing attention to difference" vs "Drawing attention to racism".

My kids look a bit different. In the past they have been mistaken for mediterranean, North African, South American and Middle Eastern. It's the sort of "different" that, when I was growing up in a Suffolk village in the 70's, would have been huge. But my kids have always lived in a more multi-cultural places. They are clearly not indigenous in appearance but because of their "unpigeonholeable" look, they almost certainly escape the prejudgement that comes with knowing where someone is from that a West African, Chinese or Pakistani will encounter.

Imagine you are Ukrainian in Britain today - you tell people you are Ukrainian not to be mistaken for being Russian. Now imagine you're Russian - you don't tell people where you're from, or you let them know pretty damn quick that you are a Putin-hating Russian. You might even tell people you're Ukrainian but probably you won't even go to Britain in the first place.

My kids have always preferred not to tell people that their mother is Indian. There's no shame in having a parent from a different country (irrespective of the country), it just removes the opportunity for the other to create a stereotype on which to base their prejudgement.

It is my kids' belief, I think, that because of the skin colour they have, they view "taking the knee" as an unnecessary and unwanted drawing attention to the fact that some people are different. They have faced more prejudgement in social climates and in countries where there is more attention to the problems faced by those who are different - even for apparently positive intentions.

2. Reasons for "taking the knee": Is it always sincere? Can it be regarded as divisive or even provocative? Might it have become counter-productive? etc

Again, I should stress that my kids views on "taking the knee" are likely to be very different to that of a minority whose appearance is very clearly culturally different or identifiable. I doubt my kids have ever woken up thinking "what prejudice is in store for me today?" They know that many, if not most people who hold racist views are unaware of the consequences of their views and actions and the huge majority will claim sincerely that they don't have a racist bone in their body and in fact they are totally opposed to any expression of racism and in full support of any effort to remove racism from society. In fact, they are very likely to be quite exuberant about taking the knee because "I'm not racist at all, and anyone not prepared to go down on one knee for a few seconds for a better society is scum". The point I am making is that racism does exist and is expressed in many ways that the indigenous population is simply unaware of because it's not always blatant in its expression. Furthermore, allowing each player to voluntarily "take the knee" in co-ordinated compliance on the whistle while the world watches on is hardly the most appropriate setting for genuine freedom of voluntary expression.

So when England played Hungary in Budapest in 2022 and the England players took the knee and the Hungarians didn't, did that mean that all the England players wanted to increase awareness of the inequality faced by minority groups and none of the Hungarian players did - and nor did many of the largely under 14 crowd who booed the England team either? I doubt it. I'm sure there were plenty of people in the stadium who held intolerant views towards minorities but my guess would be that there was a greater reaction to the English appearing to be virtue signalling at the start of a match which was "held behind closed doors" as punishment against racist abuse from some Hungary fans in a previous match.

Having travelled a fair bit of the world alone and with my family, it is beyond question that many see the English as the rule makers, arbiters and enforcers of what is socially acceptable behaviour across the world despite having more than enough problems of our own. I suspect there is a feeling in many other countries of "sort out your own shlt before you lecture and punish others" and that sadly is the reaction that many have when they see people taking the knee.

Are these my views, or that of my kids?

Show me a child under 10 who holds opposing views to their parents. From your teenage years and continuing through adulthood you start to reject the things you were "taught" by your parents that are not consistent with your own reality. I'm confident that my kids share the same views as me because my views on this matter have been shaped more by their experiences than anything else.

And finally...

Am I against taking the knee? For the type of discrimination that my kids have faced, I'm extremely sceptical about its value but I recognise there may be other - perhaps more blatant - forms of racism faced by other minorities where it may be useful and hugely appreciated.

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 10:58]

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 11:00 - Aug 20 with 2322 views

blueasfook

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 14:51 - Aug 19 by PassionNotAnger

C) is an awful take. I expect most just don't want to get involved in the sh1tstorm. Not like you to be judgemental.

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-1

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 12:08 - Aug 20 with 2195 views

Cafe_Newman

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 11:00 - Aug 20 by blueasfook
C) is an awful take. I expect most just don't want to get involved in the sh1tstorm. Not like you to be judgemental.

Which begs the question: Should there be alternatives to "taking the knee"?

1. Taking the knee (perfectly demonstrated by our temporarily very own Kalvin Phillips) to show that you are against all forms of discrimination towards minorities and pro inclusivity for all.

2. The "Hmmmm...". Do this to show that you fully and actively support a discrimination-free society for all but suspect that in being asked to demonstrate such an obvious thing you fear you may be taking part in some sort of political or social agenda which might not necessarily have the interests of minority groups as a true concern.

3.The severe thunderstorm survival position. Adopt this position if you don't want to get involved in the sh1tstorm.

4. The "Royal" salute. Strike this pose to show that you wish to continue the advance of the Aryan race across the globe at whatever cost to anyone else.

Have I missed any?

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 12:10]

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 12:33 - Aug 20 with 2150 views

Whos_blue

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 12:08 - Aug 20 by Cafe_Newman

Which begs the question: Should there be alternatives to "taking the knee"?

1. Taking the knee (perfectly demonstrated by our temporarily very own Kalvin Phillips) to show that you are against all forms of discrimination towards minorities and pro inclusivity for all.

3.The severe thunderstorm survival position. Adopt this position if you don't want to get involved in the sh1tstorm.

4. The "Royal" salute. Strike this pose to show that you wish to continue the advance of the Aryan race across the globe at whatever cost to anyone else.

Have I missed any?

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 12:10]

4. Just like Wayne Hennessey, her maj (jnr & snr) were only trying to get the photographer's attention.

'Hennessey unsure what Nazi salute was' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47946382

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 12:45]

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 17:05 - Aug 20 with 2008 views

Swansea_Blue

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 12:08 - Aug 20 by Cafe_Newman

Which begs the question: Should there be alternatives to "taking the knee"?

1. Taking the knee (perfectly demonstrated by our temporarily very own Kalvin Phillips) to show that you are against all forms of discrimination towards minorities and pro inclusivity for all.

3.The severe thunderstorm survival position. Adopt this position if you don't want to get involved in the sh1tstorm.

4. The "Royal" salute. Strike this pose to show that you wish to continue the advance of the Aryan race across the globe at whatever cost to anyone else.

Have I missed any?

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 12:10]

lol. I’ll be found in the sh1tstorm survival position if anyone needs me.

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 17:06]

Poll:

Do you think Pert is key to all of this?

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:17 - Aug 20 with 1945 views

Coastalblue

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 10:54 - Aug 20 by Cafe_Newman

[Post edited 20 Aug 2024 10:58]

Thank you, I appreciate the the thoughtful and detailed response. Some of which I had kind of assumed, but being white and middle aged that has dangers in of itself, but some very interesting food for thought.

It's a shame that we have to have conversations like this, and I know many just run away from them, but I still think they are important even if it's just educating those that are perhaps coming from the right place. (I like to think that's me)

Education is the only thing that's ever likely to stop the need I guess, so much of it is learned behaviour, as you alluded to yourself.

	No idea when I began here, was a very long time ago. Previously known as Spirit_of_81. Love cheese, hate the colour of it, this is why it requires some blue in it.
Poll:	If someone promised you promotion next season, would you think

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 15:41 - Aug 21 with 1792 views

Ryorry

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 18:17 - Aug 20 by Coastalblue

Sadly, it would seem some don't want to be educated - article I linked was downvoted by flykickingbygunn (who I was replying to).


Poll:	Town's most cultured left foot ever?

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 20:50 - Aug 21 with 1641 views

Bigalhunter

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 15:41 - Aug 21 by Ryorry
Sadly, it would seem some don't want to be educated - article I linked was downvoted by flykickingbygunn (who I was replying to).

That individual’s way beyond helpful education, unfortunately.

Poll:

September 2025. Which one?

Personally the only thing that annoyed me yesterday was the pre match kneel on 20:56 - Aug 21 with 1611 views

BanksterDebtSlave

Definitely falls into the not even worth giving a down vote to category.

	"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll:	Do you wipe after having a piss?

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