| Grenfell 09:52 - Sep 4 with 4303 views | Trequartista |
Big report out today. 3,280 buildings still have dangerous cladding seven years on.
I don't understand how that can be legal or anyone think that is ok? We spend our life putting up signs saying don't fall over that cliff or don't put your head in a blender, and yet 3,280 buildings have dangerous cladding. I just don't understand the world nowadays. I know I'm old and maybe that's why. |  |
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| Grenfell on 10:12 - Sep 4 with 3431 views | homer_123 |
I'm going to say 'money'.
Someone has to pay for it and companies and/ or the government won't. |  |
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| Grenfell on 10:32 - Sep 4 with 3391 views | Trequartista |
| Grenfell on 10:12 - Sep 4 by homer_123 |
I'm going to say 'money'.
Someone has to pay for it and companies and/ or the government won't. |
Well they should be forced to, considering they installed it illegally, or the government do it and seek later recompense. It can't just be left, otherwise it just renders any health and safety laws meaningless. | |
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| Grenfell on 10:37 - Sep 4 with 3366 views | homer_123 |
| Grenfell on 10:32 - Sep 4 by Trequartista |
Well they should be forced to, considering they installed it illegally, or the government do it and seek later recompense. It can't just be left, otherwise it just renders any health and safety laws meaningless. |
You assume the construction companies involved are still in business, I understand some aren't.
I don't disagree with you by the way. | |
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| Grenfell on 10:49 - Sep 4 with 3330 views | Radlett_blue |
| Grenfell on 10:37 - Sep 4 by homer_123 |
You assume the construction companies involved are still in business, I understand some aren't.
I don't disagree with you by the way. |
Everything can be put right if one has unlimited resources. Obviously, we don't & politicians have long realised that voters don't elect governments who propose to increase taxes, whatever they might say in opinion polls. |  |
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| Grenfell on 11:24 - Sep 4 with 3279 views | OldFart71 |
Just like Covid and the Postmaster/Postmistresses enquiry all costing millions they will tell us what we already know. They will have people responsible for these disaster who either shove the blame on someone else or claim they knew nothing about it. We are being asked to pay more for less all the time, whilst corporate businesses rake in billions and pay executives amounts of money the average working man can only dream about. Governments waste billions. Far more than the cuts they want to make and yet we the taxpayer are being told something that this current Government had access to in that they would have been privileged to Governmental spending and how the economy was performing. They promised no tax increases on certain things. We should have guessed that tax increases on other things would follow and cuts to things that were conveniently not mentioned. They will still no doubt gorge themselves on second house allowance, subsidised food and drink. Whilst the Tories were in power we had Cameron, May,Johnson ,Truss and Sunak. Each entitled to an allowance of £115,000 a year for being past PM's. I don't see any handing it back and yet 800,000 pensioners get their winter fuel allowance chopped. Don't get me wrong, not all need it. But some do. The personal allowance having been frozen by Sunak means a pensioner getting more than £12,570 a year will pay tax at 20% over that. A person on the minimum wage at £11.44 doing a 38 hour week will take over £18,000 after tax and N.I. is this fair. |  | | |
| Grenfell on 11:32 - Sep 4 with 3242 views | bournemouthblue |
| Grenfell on 10:32 - Sep 4 by Trequartista |
Well they should be forced to, considering they installed it illegally, or the government do it and seek later recompense. It can't just be left, otherwise it just renders any health and safety laws meaningless. |
What methods had the government used to put pressure on companies out of interest?
You have had buildings like St Francis Tower covered in scaffolding and wrapping for years whilst they reclad and another building on the waterfront that lost it's safety certificate because of cladding etc? |  |
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| Grenfell on 11:49 - Sep 4 with 3202 views | noggin |
| Grenfell on 11:24 - Sep 4 by OldFart71 |
Just like Covid and the Postmaster/Postmistresses enquiry all costing millions they will tell us what we already know. They will have people responsible for these disaster who either shove the blame on someone else or claim they knew nothing about it. We are being asked to pay more for less all the time, whilst corporate businesses rake in billions and pay executives amounts of money the average working man can only dream about. Governments waste billions. Far more than the cuts they want to make and yet we the taxpayer are being told something that this current Government had access to in that they would have been privileged to Governmental spending and how the economy was performing. They promised no tax increases on certain things. We should have guessed that tax increases on other things would follow and cuts to things that were conveniently not mentioned. They will still no doubt gorge themselves on second house allowance, subsidised food and drink. Whilst the Tories were in power we had Cameron, May,Johnson ,Truss and Sunak. Each entitled to an allowance of £115,000 a year for being past PM's. I don't see any handing it back and yet 800,000 pensioners get their winter fuel allowance chopped. Don't get me wrong, not all need it. But some do. The personal allowance having been frozen by Sunak means a pensioner getting more than £12,570 a year will pay tax at 20% over that. A person on the minimum wage at £11.44 doing a 38 hour week will take over £18,000 after tax and N.I. is this fair. |
Much easier to blame all your woes on poor people, arriving on small boats. 12 didn't arrive yesterday. |  |
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| Grenfell on 12:40 - Sep 4 with 3091 views | Whos_blue |
Some organisations are getting rightly skewered in the report.
A shameful set of failures mainly based around greed and seemingly dehumanising those who lived there |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Grenfell on 12:52 - Sep 4 with 3038 views | MJallday |
So my understanding is that the major contributor to this fire being so terrible was the cladding. i think that's widely understood and recognised.
the bit I'm struggling with is the fact that the government of the day is somehow responsible for that.
the goverment do not dictate the type of material used in these sites. no more than they would dictate the type of materials that would be used in house building, or car manufacture, or in fact, any walk of life. Surely the rules followed would be set by the HSE (and any applicable laws at the time)
so if we follow this logic, we could say the HSE or the builder are responsible.?
basically im struggling to see why it was the governments fault rather than the owners of the building or the construction companies themselves for not keeping up with regulations?
Edit - just to be clear, i am in no way a government apologist and this was an absolute tragedy - which i hope wiill never be repeated. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:02]
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| Grenfell on 13:03 - Sep 4 with 2952 views | blueasfook |
| Grenfell on 11:24 - Sep 4 by OldFart71 |
Just like Covid and the Postmaster/Postmistresses enquiry all costing millions they will tell us what we already know. They will have people responsible for these disaster who either shove the blame on someone else or claim they knew nothing about it. We are being asked to pay more for less all the time, whilst corporate businesses rake in billions and pay executives amounts of money the average working man can only dream about. Governments waste billions. Far more than the cuts they want to make and yet we the taxpayer are being told something that this current Government had access to in that they would have been privileged to Governmental spending and how the economy was performing. They promised no tax increases on certain things. We should have guessed that tax increases on other things would follow and cuts to things that were conveniently not mentioned. They will still no doubt gorge themselves on second house allowance, subsidised food and drink. Whilst the Tories were in power we had Cameron, May,Johnson ,Truss and Sunak. Each entitled to an allowance of £115,000 a year for being past PM's. I don't see any handing it back and yet 800,000 pensioners get their winter fuel allowance chopped. Don't get me wrong, not all need it. But some do. The personal allowance having been frozen by Sunak means a pensioner getting more than £12,570 a year will pay tax at 20% over that. A person on the minimum wage at £11.44 doing a 38 hour week will take over £18,000 after tax and N.I. is this fair. |
It's an absolute disgrace that Liz Truss qualifies for the ex-PM allowance having been outlasted by a lettuce and trashing the country's economy during her short disastrous stint as PM. |  |
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| Grenfell on 13:08 - Sep 4 with 2905 views | OldFart71 |
| Grenfell on 11:49 - Sep 4 by noggin |
Much easier to blame all your woes on poor people, arriving on small boats. 12 didn't arrive yesterday. |
Where did I mention anything to do with boat people ? Of course I do not want to see anyone die of any nationality. The people who want locking up and the key thrown away are the traffickers who pray on the desperate needs of these people. | | | |
| Grenfell on 13:12 - Sep 4 with 2863 views | noggin |
| Grenfell on 13:08 - Sep 4 by OldFart71 |
Where did I mention anything to do with boat people ? Of course I do not want to see anyone die of any nationality. The people who want locking up and the key thrown away are the traffickers who pray on the desperate needs of these people. |
I was pretty much agreeing with you. My dig was at the loud minority who think that way. | |
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| Grenfell on 13:15 - Sep 4 with 2857 views | blueasfook |
| Grenfell on 13:12 - Sep 4 by noggin |
I was pretty much agreeing with you. My dig was at the loud minority who think that way. |
Imagine using the deaths of 12 people to "have a dig". What is wrong with you? | |
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| Grenfell on 13:24 - Sep 4 with 2774 views | noggin |
| Grenfell on 13:15 - Sep 4 by blueasfook |
Imagine using the deaths of 12 people to "have a dig". What is wrong with you? |
What, having a dig at xenophobes and racists? | |
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| Grenfell on 13:28 - Sep 4 with 2733 views | ipswichtillidie |
| Grenfell on 10:12 - Sep 4 by homer_123 |
I'm going to say 'money'.
Someone has to pay for it and companies and/ or the government won't. |
This is the sad reality isn’t it. Note, another fire we had in London last week in which cladding caused a block of flats to go up in Dagenham.The government simply hasn’t done enough to protect the lives of residents in buildings fitted with flammable cladding. Everyone from builders, manufacturers and councils have been passing the blame now for seven years. I attended the fire in Grenfell that night, I had hoped the mistakes made by “everyone” back then would be used to avert anything like this happening again. They haven’t.
From the fire brigades Union standpoint.
The final report of the Grenfell Tower Inquiry has now been published. The FBU was a core participant of the Inquiry, and we represented the interests of firefighters and control staff throughout.
First and foremost, this is a time to remember 72 people who tragically lost their lives in a horrific and entirely preventable disaster. The FBU shares the grief and anger of the bereaved, survivors and residents of Grenfell Tower. Throughout the past seven years, the FBU has demanded justice and FBU members have attended the regular commemorative walks in the community. We will continue to demonstrate our solidarity in any way we can.
This is also a difficult time for many firefighters and fire control staff. We remember the bravery, professionalism, and commitment of those who responded to the Grenfell Tower fire and did their best in impossible conditions to save lives. We have defended the role of front-line firefighters and emergency control staff from the start. From the start, we have made the obvious point that firefighters did not re-develop Grenfell Tower and did not cause the numerous failings in fire safety which led to such a terrible disaster.
For decades before the fire, and years after it, the FBU warned that deregulation, privatisation and cuts were endangering lives. This report completely vindicates our position. It makes clear that the fire was the result of decades of failure by central government to regulate the building industry – the prioritisation of private profit over human life.
It sets out how construction companies gamed the system to maximise their profits, and how a system of semi privatised building control put commercial interests ahead of regulatory duties.
1
Again and again, residents and firefighters warned of the dangers of combustible cladding but were ignored.
We are still digesting the report’s recommendations. In time, we will give a detailed summary of them and how and whether we support each of them. On first reading, many are worthwhile, but it is unlikely that on their own they will address all the structural problems raised by the report.
Our position has been entirely vindicated and our demands remain the same. The deregulation of recent decades must be comprehensively reversed. The systems for delivering building safety must be brought under public ownership and must be given the resources they need.
The lessons of the Grenfell Tower fire are relevant to fire and rescue services across the UK. To implement them, we need national standards set by a statutory advisory body on fire policy, giving a voice to firefighters and control staff and drawing on the best expert advice.
And most of all we demand justice for all of the victims of the fire. Seven years on from this horrific event, our thoughts and solidarity are with them. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:40]
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| Grenfell on 13:40 - Sep 4 with 2655 views | HotShotHamish |
| Grenfell on 11:24 - Sep 4 by OldFart71 |
Just like Covid and the Postmaster/Postmistresses enquiry all costing millions they will tell us what we already know. They will have people responsible for these disaster who either shove the blame on someone else or claim they knew nothing about it. We are being asked to pay more for less all the time, whilst corporate businesses rake in billions and pay executives amounts of money the average working man can only dream about. Governments waste billions. Far more than the cuts they want to make and yet we the taxpayer are being told something that this current Government had access to in that they would have been privileged to Governmental spending and how the economy was performing. They promised no tax increases on certain things. We should have guessed that tax increases on other things would follow and cuts to things that were conveniently not mentioned. They will still no doubt gorge themselves on second house allowance, subsidised food and drink. Whilst the Tories were in power we had Cameron, May,Johnson ,Truss and Sunak. Each entitled to an allowance of £115,000 a year for being past PM's. I don't see any handing it back and yet 800,000 pensioners get their winter fuel allowance chopped. Don't get me wrong, not all need it. But some do. The personal allowance having been frozen by Sunak means a pensioner getting more than £12,570 a year will pay tax at 20% over that. A person on the minimum wage at £11.44 doing a 38 hour week will take over £18,000 after tax and N.I. is this fair. |
I find it most amusing when people criticise the Conservatives for freezing the tax personal allownace rate. This rate was hugely increased by the Conservatives during their time in power. It has never been something that rose in line with inflation throughout all its history.
The Conservatives increased it by record margins then you criticise when it isn't increased every year.
Absolutley crazy and goes a long way to highlight how dangeropus it is to liasten to commentators who give little, or no, truthful contaxt to an argument. | | | |
| Grenfell on 13:47 - Sep 4 with 2601 views | bluelagos |
| Grenfell on 13:40 - Sep 4 by HotShotHamish |
I find it most amusing when people criticise the Conservatives for freezing the tax personal allownace rate. This rate was hugely increased by the Conservatives during their time in power. It has never been something that rose in line with inflation throughout all its history.
The Conservatives increased it by record margins then you criticise when it isn't increased every year.
Absolutley crazy and goes a long way to highlight how dangeropus it is to liasten to commentators who give little, or no, truthful contaxt to an argument. |
"Absolutley crazy and goes a long way to highlight how dangeropus it is to liasten to commentators who give little, or no, truthful contaxt to an argument."
That might carry a bit more weight if it wasn't a fact that it was a 2010 Liberal Democrat manifesto policy that was subsequently implemented by the coalition. |  |
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| Grenfell on 13:51 - Sep 4 with 2587 views | blueasfook |
| Grenfell on 13:24 - Sep 4 by noggin |
What, having a dig at xenophobes and racists? |
Makes you no better than them by using the deaths of 12 people to try to score points. Especially on a thread where it wasn't even the topic under discussion. You just had to shoehorn that in. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:51]
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| Grenfell on 14:04 - Sep 4 with 2499 views | Basuco |
| Grenfell on 12:52 - Sep 4 by MJallday |
So my understanding is that the major contributor to this fire being so terrible was the cladding. i think that's widely understood and recognised.
the bit I'm struggling with is the fact that the government of the day is somehow responsible for that.
the goverment do not dictate the type of material used in these sites. no more than they would dictate the type of materials that would be used in house building, or car manufacture, or in fact, any walk of life. Surely the rules followed would be set by the HSE (and any applicable laws at the time)
so if we follow this logic, we could say the HSE or the builder are responsible.?
basically im struggling to see why it was the governments fault rather than the owners of the building or the construction companies themselves for not keeping up with regulations?
Edit - just to be clear, i am in no way a government apologist and this was an absolute tragedy - which i hope wiill never be repeated. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:02]
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How did the landlord get away with ordering and getting builders in to replace non flammable cladding with flammable cladding? Shouldn't these type of works be inspected and if not compliant with regulations buildings be declared uninhabitable? When did safety inspections stop to allow Grenfell to happen? That is the bit I do not understand, there will always be greedy landlords around, so where is the protection for the general public? This is why I feel Governments are responsible, legislation needs to be introduced to ensure all buildings are inspected and approved to set fire and safety standards. |  | | |
| Grenfell on 14:08 - Sep 4 with 2451 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Grenfell on 13:47 - Sep 4 by bluelagos |
"Absolutley crazy and goes a long way to highlight how dangeropus it is to liasten to commentators who give little, or no, truthful contaxt to an argument."
That might carry a bit more weight if it wasn't a fact that it was a 2010 Liberal Democrat manifesto policy that was subsequently implemented by the coalition. |
Indeed, between 2010 and 2015, that allowance increased from £6475 to £10,000
From 2015 to 2023 it increased from £10,000 to £12,570 |  |
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| Grenfell on 14:17 - Sep 4 with 2345 views | ipswichtillidie |
| Grenfell on 14:04 - Sep 4 by Basuco |
How did the landlord get away with ordering and getting builders in to replace non flammable cladding with flammable cladding? Shouldn't these type of works be inspected and if not compliant with regulations buildings be declared uninhabitable? When did safety inspections stop to allow Grenfell to happen? That is the bit I do not understand, there will always be greedy landlords around, so where is the protection for the general public? This is why I feel Governments are responsible, legislation needs to be introduced to ensure all buildings are inspected and approved to set fire and safety standards. |
As per my post. I do have the full report if anyone is interested (pm). Is quite a read!!
For decades before the fire, and years after it, the FBU warned that deregulation, privatisation and cuts were endangering lives. This report completely vindicates our position. It makes clear that the fire was the result of decades of failure by central government to regulate the building industry – the prioritisation of private profit over human life.
It sets out how construction companies gamed the system to maximise their profits, and how a system of semi privatised building control put commercial interests ahead of regulatory duties. | |
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| Grenfell on 14:32 - Sep 4 with 2285 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Grenfell on 12:52 - Sep 4 by MJallday |
So my understanding is that the major contributor to this fire being so terrible was the cladding. i think that's widely understood and recognised.
the bit I'm struggling with is the fact that the government of the day is somehow responsible for that.
the goverment do not dictate the type of material used in these sites. no more than they would dictate the type of materials that would be used in house building, or car manufacture, or in fact, any walk of life. Surely the rules followed would be set by the HSE (and any applicable laws at the time)
so if we follow this logic, we could say the HSE or the builder are responsible.?
basically im struggling to see why it was the governments fault rather than the owners of the building or the construction companies themselves for not keeping up with regulations?
Edit - just to be clear, i am in no way a government apologist and this was an absolute tragedy - which i hope wiill never be repeated. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:02]
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The Gurniad outlines some of the findings in relation to the govt, from para 6 onwards: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/sep/04/grenfell-report-blames-d |  |
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| Grenfell on 14:32 - Sep 4 with 2277 views | noggin |
| Grenfell on 13:51 - Sep 4 by blueasfook |
Makes you no better than them by using the deaths of 12 people to try to score points. Especially on a thread where it wasn't even the topic under discussion. You just had to shoehorn that in. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:51]
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So long as I'm better than you, I'm good. Thanks for your input though. | |
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| Grenfell on 14:38 - Sep 4 with 2221 views | Basuco |
| Grenfell on 14:17 - Sep 4 by ipswichtillidie |
As per my post. I do have the full report if anyone is interested (pm). Is quite a read!!
For decades before the fire, and years after it, the FBU warned that deregulation, privatisation and cuts were endangering lives. This report completely vindicates our position. It makes clear that the fire was the result of decades of failure by central government to regulate the building industry – the prioritisation of private profit over human life.
It sets out how construction companies gamed the system to maximise their profits, and how a system of semi privatised building control put commercial interests ahead of regulatory duties. |
Thanks, I missed your post, that does explain how a Government is responsible, it is now up to the Government of the day to ensure proper building regulation and inspection is brought back. | | | |
| Grenfell on 16:41 - Sep 4 with 1987 views | soupytwist |
| Grenfell on 12:52 - Sep 4 by MJallday |
So my understanding is that the major contributor to this fire being so terrible was the cladding. i think that's widely understood and recognised.
the bit I'm struggling with is the fact that the government of the day is somehow responsible for that.
the goverment do not dictate the type of material used in these sites. no more than they would dictate the type of materials that would be used in house building, or car manufacture, or in fact, any walk of life. Surely the rules followed would be set by the HSE (and any applicable laws at the time)
so if we follow this logic, we could say the HSE or the builder are responsible.?
basically im struggling to see why it was the governments fault rather than the owners of the building or the construction companies themselves for not keeping up with regulations?
Edit - just to be clear, i am in no way a government apologist and this was an absolute tragedy - which i hope wiill never be repeated. [Post edited 4 Sep 2024 13:02]
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This article in the Guardian explains the state of regulation and enforcement in the years leading up to the tragedy at Grenfell.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/04/grenfell-is-simply
A terrible tragedy should not really have been the unforeseeable outcome of a concerted effort to remove meddlesome 'red tape' from the building industry. But hey, those shareholder profits and executive bonuses have to come from somewhere. |  | | |
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