| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. 13:19 - Nov 6 with 6442 views | Miaow |
Europe needs to back them to the hilt. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 13:37 - Nov 6 with 4050 views | reusersfreekicks |
Yes the MAGA crowd will want to abandon the defender, side with the aggressor and force appeasement.
History shows how well that works - land grabbing dictators won't stop after an initial sucess |  | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:00 - Nov 6 with 3953 views | BasingstokeBlue |
I'm surprised he hasn't tried to buy the good ol' US of A, first. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:04 - Nov 6 with 3933 views | positivity |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 13:37 - Nov 6 by reusersfreekicks |
Yes the MAGA crowd will want to abandon the defender, side with the aggressor and force appeasement.
History shows how well that works - land grabbing dictators won't stop after an initial sucess |
the maga crowd won't be bothered about moldova, georgia, estonia, poland any more than ukraine though. will take a lot for these appeasers to realise their mistakes... |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:56 - Nov 6 with 3789 views | giant_stow |
I wouldn't hold your breath on that. Sorry to be a negative nelly, but most of Europe can't / won't afford to spend on their own defenses, let alone another country's. Honorable exception to Poland, with us and France right on the borderline.
Edit: maybe that will have to change now, at the expense of public service spending? [Post edited 6 Nov 14:57]
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:02 - Nov 6 with 3753 views | Kropotkin123 |
Same, and agree.
Americans will have to live with the effects of their vote and they had a choice in that.
Ukraine, sadly did not, and the result will have a huge impact. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:23 - Nov 6 with 3663 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:00 - Nov 6 by BasingstokeBlue |
I'm surprised he hasn't tried to buy the good ol' US of A, first. |
Musk was doing that on his behalf, wasn't he? (Not that it would have changed the result I'm sure). |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:57 - Nov 6 with 3593 views | Churchman |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 14:56 - Nov 6 by giant_stow |
I wouldn't hold your breath on that. Sorry to be a negative nelly, but most of Europe can't / won't afford to spend on their own defenses, let alone another country's. Honorable exception to Poland, with us and France right on the borderline.
Edit: maybe that will have to change now, at the expense of public service spending? [Post edited 6 Nov 14:57]
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Agreed. When it comes to it there’s neither the ability or the will. It’s noticeable that the countries next on Putin’s menu are trying to do something including increasing spending and support. The rest?
Well, looking at the U.K. with its promise of 2.5% GDP one day never and continual cuts since the Cold War ended, we aren’t really serious about it despite the Ukraine invasion happening getting on for three years ago.
If Trump says toodloo NATO America first, it’s the one thing I wouldn’t blame him for. We’ve sponged off America for defence for far too long. Ok, other European countries even more so, but that’s not the point. The war is on our doorstep and is primarily Europes problem.
That doesn't detract from my sympathy towards the people of Ukraine who at best will be left with a rump of a country before Putin finishes the meal. They deserve better. |  | | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 16:05 - Nov 6 with 3576 views | Guthrum |
Things may not be that clear cut.
It depends what Putin is prepared to give Trump and how well Zelensky (the 'master salesman') handles the President. There's got to be some sort of deal, not simply capitulation and abandonment of an ally. That would make Trump and America look weak (c.f. his comments about the US withdrawal from Afghanistan).
If Trump concocts a plan and Putin refuses to go along with it, then all bets are off. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 16:24 - Nov 6 with 3512 views | Churchman |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 16:05 - Nov 6 by Guthrum |
Things may not be that clear cut.
It depends what Putin is prepared to give Trump and how well Zelensky (the 'master salesman') handles the President. There's got to be some sort of deal, not simply capitulation and abandonment of an ally. That would make Trump and America look weak (c.f. his comments about the US withdrawal from Afghanistan).
If Trump concocts a plan and Putin refuses to go along with it, then all bets are off. |
Any deal including surrender works for Trump. He can sell it on the basis of I’ve ended a war, prevented more deaths and achieved something neither senile Biden or the rest of Europe could manage. Job done.
The US looking weak in the aftermath of Afghanistan? Well that was America’s war. This is not. It can be presented as Russia reclaiming what is rightfully theirs - Vlad’s line.
Putin giving something to Trump? That’s easy, especially with Ukraine tucked away. Cheap raw materials. A reduction in influence where the US has an interest. There are ways I’m sure.
If or when Putin goes further that’s not Trumps problem diplomatically, militarily or economically, especially the latter as America first means trade with outsiders will be on their terms and expensive - including military hardware. If Europe cannot defend itself whose fault is that?
Trump is a simple man who will provide simple solutions like injecting bleach to cure Covid. Putin is a simple person too. They’ll come to an agreement ok, but I doubt many outside them will like it.
Just idle speculation without much if any foundation on my part. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 16:50 - Nov 6 with 3421 views | Radlett_blue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 15:57 - Nov 6 by Churchman |
Agreed. When it comes to it there’s neither the ability or the will. It’s noticeable that the countries next on Putin’s menu are trying to do something including increasing spending and support. The rest?
Well, looking at the U.K. with its promise of 2.5% GDP one day never and continual cuts since the Cold War ended, we aren’t really serious about it despite the Ukraine invasion happening getting on for three years ago.
If Trump says toodloo NATO America first, it’s the one thing I wouldn’t blame him for. We’ve sponged off America for defence for far too long. Ok, other European countries even more so, but that’s not the point. The war is on our doorstep and is primarily Europes problem.
That doesn't detract from my sympathy towards the people of Ukraine who at best will be left with a rump of a country before Putin finishes the meal. They deserve better. |
Indeed, Russia & Europe isn't the focus of the USA any more. Trump correctly pointed out that if Europe wanted NATO to work as a credible bulwark against Russia, the European countries need to increase their defence spending and by a large amount. They can't rely on Uncle Sam to bail them out. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:28 - Nov 6 with 3324 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 16:50 - Nov 6 by Radlett_blue |
Indeed, Russia & Europe isn't the focus of the USA any more. Trump correctly pointed out that if Europe wanted NATO to work as a credible bulwark against Russia, the European countries need to increase their defence spending and by a large amount. They can't rely on Uncle Sam to bail them out. |
We’ll see how this pans out, but the only consistent thing about Trump is his inconsistency.
The threat to the wider Europe (with or without the US) is being overplayed by some. Russia have had 1/2 million casualties trying to take just Donetsk and Luhansk provinces. They are running out of manpower (from prisons and rural areas). They’ve consumed over half their sovereign wealth in doing so and are struggling with the cost of armour - they are going for ‘flesh not steel’ as evidenced by the arrival of lightly armed North Korean infantry.
If the orange one does force Ukraine into a terrible deal, it’ll take Russia years to rebuild their shattered forces, and Trump will long have been placed in a nursing home, replaced (hopefully) by a more reliable partner. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:42 - Nov 6 with 3275 views | Churchman |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:28 - Nov 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
We’ll see how this pans out, but the only consistent thing about Trump is his inconsistency.
The threat to the wider Europe (with or without the US) is being overplayed by some. Russia have had 1/2 million casualties trying to take just Donetsk and Luhansk provinces. They are running out of manpower (from prisons and rural areas). They’ve consumed over half their sovereign wealth in doing so and are struggling with the cost of armour - they are going for ‘flesh not steel’ as evidenced by the arrival of lightly armed North Korean infantry.
If the orange one does force Ukraine into a terrible deal, it’ll take Russia years to rebuild their shattered forces, and Trump will long have been placed in a nursing home, replaced (hopefully) by a more reliable partner. |
See the link attached
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-orders-russian-army-grow-by-180000-so
Manpower really isn’t a problem. 500k casualties? Who cares? Not Putin. His regard for human life is less than zero and Russia has always conducted war that way. Spending? The swallowing of Ukraine with all its resources will more than pay for it and much of the west will be begging Putin for oil, grain you name it when Ukraine is gone.
As for a military that large, he doesn’t want it for nothing. It’ll be created to be used. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:50 - Nov 6 with 3231 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:42 - Nov 6 by Churchman |
See the link attached
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-orders-russian-army-grow-by-180000-so
Manpower really isn’t a problem. 500k casualties? Who cares? Not Putin. His regard for human life is less than zero and Russia has always conducted war that way. Spending? The swallowing of Ukraine with all its resources will more than pay for it and much of the west will be begging Putin for oil, grain you name it when Ukraine is gone.
As for a military that large, he doesn’t want it for nothing. It’ll be created to be used. |
They wouldn’t swallow the whole of Ukraine in any peace deal - that’s a little alarmist. Appreciate he’s expanding the army, but a lot of that will be for reserves away from the front line (look how easily Ukraine penetrated into Russia due to their army being stretched thin). Politically the problem Putin has is the inability to recruit from metropolitan areas - if sons and fathers from Moscow and St Petersburg return in a body bag it’s no longer ‘out of sight, out of mind’ and public support for his war (and him) will wane. That’s why to date he’s emptied prisons, used mercenaries, poorly educated rural recruits, and now North Korean soldiers. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:58 - Nov 6 with 3172 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 13:37 - Nov 6 by reusersfreekicks |
Yes the MAGA crowd will want to abandon the defender, side with the aggressor and force appeasement.
History shows how well that works - land grabbing dictators won't stop after an initial sucess |
I’ve not seen anything from Putin that suggests he’d stop now, so I suspect you’re right. It’s going to be an interesting ride from afar (but a very worrying time for Ukrainians). Trump being in again will be anything but dull if nothing else. | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:20 - Nov 6 with 3077 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:50 - Nov 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
They wouldn’t swallow the whole of Ukraine in any peace deal - that’s a little alarmist. Appreciate he’s expanding the army, but a lot of that will be for reserves away from the front line (look how easily Ukraine penetrated into Russia due to their army being stretched thin). Politically the problem Putin has is the inability to recruit from metropolitan areas - if sons and fathers from Moscow and St Petersburg return in a body bag it’s no longer ‘out of sight, out of mind’ and public support for his war (and him) will wane. That’s why to date he’s emptied prisons, used mercenaries, poorly educated rural recruits, and now North Korean soldiers. |
Of course they will. If not immediately, then later. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:37 - Nov 6 with 3016 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:20 - Nov 6 by redrickstuhaart |
Of course they will. If not immediately, then later. |
They do not have capacity to take it now - they’ve not even reached the Dniper after nearly 3 years of trying. By the time any theoretical Russian re-armament is completed Trump will be long gone. The EU has 40bn of annual trade at stake, and the West have over 100bn in trapped assets (in addition to over 200bn in Russia). There’s much more at stake than Trump’s ego and there is no way the West abandons western Ukraine. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:49 - Nov 6 with 2974 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:37 - Nov 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
They do not have capacity to take it now - they’ve not even reached the Dniper after nearly 3 years of trying. By the time any theoretical Russian re-armament is completed Trump will be long gone. The EU has 40bn of annual trade at stake, and the West have over 100bn in trapped assets (in addition to over 200bn in Russia). There’s much more at stake than Trump’s ego and there is no way the West abandons western Ukraine. |
If they get away with securing what they have, with tacit approval of the US, they will re arm and press again in due course.
Of course, if we cut off Ukraine now, they will be at a massive disadvantage and the tide will shift significantly. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 18:53 - Nov 6 with 2947 views | Churchman |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 17:50 - Nov 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
They wouldn’t swallow the whole of Ukraine in any peace deal - that’s a little alarmist. Appreciate he’s expanding the army, but a lot of that will be for reserves away from the front line (look how easily Ukraine penetrated into Russia due to their army being stretched thin). Politically the problem Putin has is the inability to recruit from metropolitan areas - if sons and fathers from Moscow and St Petersburg return in a body bag it’s no longer ‘out of sight, out of mind’ and public support for his war (and him) will wane. That’s why to date he’s emptied prisons, used mercenaries, poorly educated rural recruits, and now North Korean soldiers. |
What did Putin do after agreeing to guarantee Ukraine’s sovereignty with the U.K. and US? Swallowed Crimea, rabble roused in the areas he said was his and invaded. What did Hitler do after signing the treaty with Britain and France for peace in Czechoslovakia in return for the Sudetenland to which he had no entitlement whatsoever in 1938? Swallowed the rest by the end of the year.
It’s what Dictators do. They’ll promise the moon on a stick to get what they want and then they’ll take it.
So yes, I am being alarmist and I apologise for that - but I do so on the basis of the above. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:48 - Nov 6 with 2757 views | Leaky |
I wouldn't want to rely on Europe best hope is the UK. Puttin would be on the outskirts of Brussels before the EU could agree on a menu for the after conference banquet |  | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:55 - Nov 6 with 2724 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:48 - Nov 6 by Leaky |
I wouldn't want to rely on Europe best hope is the UK. Puttin would be on the outskirts of Brussels before the EU could agree on a menu for the after conference banquet |
I think you underestimate Finland and Sweden. And Poland come to that. | | | |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:58 - Nov 6 with 2710 views | positivity |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:55 - Nov 6 by redrickstuhaart |
I think you underestimate Finland and Sweden. And Poland come to that. |
that's quite a weird route to get to brussels though! | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:58 - Nov 6 with 2709 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:48 - Nov 6 by Leaky |
I wouldn't want to rely on Europe best hope is the UK. Puttin would be on the outskirts of Brussels before the EU could agree on a menu for the after conference banquet |
That sounds like baseless British exceptionalism. You’d be surprised to hear that people in other countries think they’re important too. | |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 07:31 - Nov 7 with 2482 views | noggin |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:48 - Nov 6 by Leaky |
I wouldn't want to rely on Europe best hope is the UK. Puttin would be on the outskirts of Brussels before the EU could agree on a menu for the after conference banquet |
"Puttin would be on the outskirts of Brussels"
When Trump plays golf, you stay silent but the minute EU leaders want to work on theirs... One rule for racists, another for European politicians. |  |
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| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 08:34 - Nov 7 with 2364 views | WeWereZombies |
| Today, my thoughts are with the people of Ukraine. on 22:55 - Nov 6 by redrickstuhaart |
I think you underestimate Finland and Sweden. And Poland come to that. |
The European partners in NATO do need more confidence though, and more coordination. But when you look at the numbers Russia has a population of less than one hundred and fifty million whereas Germany with over eighty million, France at almost seventy million, the United Kingdom about the same, Poland almost forty million, Sweden just over ten million, Finland, the Republic of Ireland and Norway all over five million then you can see that Putin is outnumbered and by better equipped and better trained nations. The Finns alone have tonked Russia before (sadly when they were allied to Nazi Germany but through the necessity of surviving as an independent nation) and our archipelago off the coast of continental has trading reasons to remain free of Russian belligerence.
However the military position is only one aspect (and don't forget that Russian has southern and eastern neighbours that are equally as motivated to get them to behave as the western ones) with energy and food supply important regionally and internationally. So power politics is necessary with the French and British historically adept at rapprochement and soft power, German financial and industrial muscle providing a focus through reputation plus the Mediterranean bulwark of culture and a model for a good life then quite why Russia has been allowed to get away their shenanigans is puzzling. Organised crime has a lot to do with it I suppose. Could also explain why the United States has been so ineffectual.
It is a lot to hope for and Europe has torn itself apart a couple of times before but there is a civilised hope for better results after this massive Trump on the other side of the Atlantic results in the United States needing a long isolationist sit down whilst fresher and more invested powers take up the reins. |  |
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