| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. 13:32 - Nov 20 with 33380 views | OldFart71 |
Inflation up and rising. Costs to businesses up. Energy prices going up again in January. Not long ago I paid £68 per month for gas and electricity. In the winter I was able to have my heating on 1-1.1/2 hours in the morning, then again 3 p.m. to 8 p.m. I now pay £85 per month (Just increased by my supplier) and I have it on for two hours at night. Absolutely bonkers. Whilst I admit and I was just as p*ssed off as most people with the Tories, Labour have steam rollered in like a bull in a china shop and now costs are and will keep increasing by more than they needed to. Companies will cut costs by cutting hours or even laying people off. Will put prices up whilst giving lower wage increases. This in turn will lead to workers striking for higher pay. There's a saying "You can't burn the candle at both ends" Labour are trying to put all the ills made by the previous Government in one go. It is too much all at once and is already leading to many sections of our community taking to the streets or totally feed up with a Party that has only been in power a few months. |  | | |  |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 22:25 - Nov 21 with 2086 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 15:55 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
That is not how value works. There is only a job if your wage plus all the associated costs (roughly about the same again) is less than the money that your labour brings in.
Raising the minimum wage like that is just a recipe for inflation and unemployment. |
If you have to subsidise staff from the state because the wages are too low to live on, then the job either isnt actually economically viable, or the employer is taking more profit than is justified. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:00 - Nov 21 with 2042 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 15:55 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
That is not how value works. There is only a job if your wage plus all the associated costs (roughly about the same again) is less than the money that your labour brings in.
Raising the minimum wage like that is just a recipe for inflation and unemployment. |
They said that when the minimum wage was introduced and were also wrong then |  | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:24 - Nov 21 with 2008 views | Europablue |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 16:22 - Nov 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
https://www.livingwage.org.uk/
Have a read and educate yourself. It's actually beneficial to the employer (as well as the employee) to not only pay the raised minimum wage... but to go further (as thousands of small, medium and large businesses have) and pay a Real Living Wage. |
"educate yourself" is the most condescending thing to say and automatically puts people in the mindset to totally ignore an sensible thing you might say. How about not being so adversarial and rude?
It is great if a company can make the living wage work for them, but there are certain jobs that even the minimum wage makes unviable and you have to balance the incentive to replace people with technology. The wages have to be set based on the market. The minimum wage either forces a pay rise or makes a job unviable. It also has a major inflationary effect.
There is another important point, and that is companies using the minimum wage as a way of scrounging off the state who has to foot the bill for housing benefit, etc. Companies like Tesco are known for this. I would charge the employers for the housing benefit up to point of the company no longer being able to make a net profit from the entire business. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:29 - Nov 21 with 2004 views | Europablue |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 22:25 - Nov 21 by redrickstuhaart |
If you have to subsidise staff from the state because the wages are too low to live on, then the job either isnt actually economically viable, or the employer is taking more profit than is justified. |
If a job can be provided to a long-term unemployed person even at half the minimum wage with the rest topped up by the state, it is a net benefit compared to the state paying the full price. Also, a job gives a person a purpose and provides a sense of self-worth.
The important part is that company is not exploiting the situation and under representing the value of the labour. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:37 - Nov 21 with 1984 views | Europablue |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 18:53 - Nov 21 by J2BLUE |
Or, alternatively, I fully understand how it works and think it could be a lot better.
If you understand how the world works and still support it then I would say it's you who is wrong. |
No, the first one.
The proposed solution has to be workable and not just pie in the sky. You mentioned "people are giving up their time", but they are free to find the best rate for their time. The value is entirely based on what someone is willing to pay for it, not on what they feel is worth it to them. When you have a family you just have to swallow your pride and take whatever job you can get that will put a roof over their heads and food on the table.
It's not about supporting something. Wishing something were different doesn't really help people who are struggling. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:43 - Nov 21 with 1978 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:29 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
If a job can be provided to a long-term unemployed person even at half the minimum wage with the rest topped up by the state, it is a net benefit compared to the state paying the full price. Also, a job gives a person a purpose and provides a sense of self-worth.
The important part is that company is not exploiting the situation and under representing the value of the labour. |
"a job gives a person a purpose and provides a sense of self-worth."
It may do so.
But not all jobs and not all people. |  |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:45 - Nov 21 with 1979 views | Europablue |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:00 - Nov 21 by reusersfreekicks |
They said that when the minimum wage was introduced and were also wrong then |
I'd like to see your evidence. Has buying power really improved? It seems like rents and food prices have been outstripping wage increases.
Just look at the case study of California where they want to raise the minimum wage to 20 dollars at fast food restaurants. They are replacing a lot of people with machines and they are putting a lot of people off going to fast food places.
I barely ever eat out anymore. It's just ridiculous to spend so much money to feed the family when you can cook something better at home most of the time for a fraction of the cost. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 00:19 - Nov 22 with 1972 views | J2BLUE |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:37 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
No, the first one.
The proposed solution has to be workable and not just pie in the sky. You mentioned "people are giving up their time", but they are free to find the best rate for their time. The value is entirely based on what someone is willing to pay for it, not on what they feel is worth it to them. When you have a family you just have to swallow your pride and take whatever job you can get that will put a roof over their heads and food on the table.
It's not about supporting something. Wishing something were different doesn't really help people who are struggling. |
Who said anything about wishing?
It can and will be different soon. There is a choice which society makes collectively. Those at the top probably can't believe we've fallen for it for so long. Eventually there will be UBI because technology and AI will do most jobs. Right now we have self service tills and scan as you shop taking over supermarkets with less and less tills with someone serving. We have Amazon employing more robots than humans. Etc etc. All driving down wages and working conditions.
I think you said you are a pensioner, is that correct? |  |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 09:27 - Nov 22 with 1900 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:24 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
"educate yourself" is the most condescending thing to say and automatically puts people in the mindset to totally ignore an sensible thing you might say. How about not being so adversarial and rude?
It is great if a company can make the living wage work for them, but there are certain jobs that even the minimum wage makes unviable and you have to balance the incentive to replace people with technology. The wages have to be set based on the market. The minimum wage either forces a pay rise or makes a job unviable. It also has a major inflationary effect.
There is another important point, and that is companies using the minimum wage as a way of scrounging off the state who has to foot the bill for housing benefit, etc. Companies like Tesco are known for this. I would charge the employers for the housing benefit up to point of the company no longer being able to make a net profit from the entire business. |
LOL, adversarial and rude?! This was just after you said to J2: "Wow, you show an utter lack of understanding of how business and the world works" and to me, "It just seems like you don't understand that."
Practice what you preach fella!
Anyway, as to the rest of your post, it suggests you didn't read anything so I'll ask again in a nicer way, particularly have a gander at this section: https://www.livingwage.org.uk/good-for-business
I was actually surprised myself, it seems counter intuitive, but raising wages is actually good for businesses, not detrimental. Things like happier staff being more productive, better staff being attracted in the first place, less sickness (which as well as man-hours being lost, also has to be paid for), greater staff retention (so less associated costs with keep having to rehire and train) etc. There are many more, these are just a few off the top of my head. This has all been worked out by experts, which is why thousands of companies - from tiny operations to massive enterprises - have accredited.
They don't have to do it, as it's more than the legal minimum. So you need to ask yourself why. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 09:33 - Nov 22 with 1892 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:29 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
If a job can be provided to a long-term unemployed person even at half the minimum wage with the rest topped up by the state, it is a net benefit compared to the state paying the full price. Also, a job gives a person a purpose and provides a sense of self-worth.
The important part is that company is not exploiting the situation and under representing the value of the labour. |
If a job is paying half the minimum wage with the rest topped up by the state, then that company is exploiting the situation.
This is never acceptable. If a company can't run unless it's paying people half the minimum wage then it's not a viable business and should be wound up. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:04 - Nov 22 with 1848 views | Europablue |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 00:19 - Nov 22 by J2BLUE |
Who said anything about wishing?
It can and will be different soon. There is a choice which society makes collectively. Those at the top probably can't believe we've fallen for it for so long. Eventually there will be UBI because technology and AI will do most jobs. Right now we have self service tills and scan as you shop taking over supermarkets with less and less tills with someone serving. We have Amazon employing more robots than humans. Etc etc. All driving down wages and working conditions.
I think you said you are a pensioner, is that correct? |
I'm skeptical about UBI. The trails seemed inconclusive. Paying a dividend to citizens works in countries like Norway or in Alaska, because they have something valuable to fund it. I'm not convinced that we have anything to fund it.
No, I'm 40. I'm just trying to make hay while the sun shines.
The biggest problem I see is with outgoings, not really income. I hate how we have commoditized housing. It is crazy to have people in need of housing competing against people who want to hold an asset. If my house weren't so expensive. I would feel very rich. Maybe if we are all replaced by robots and AI, then the housing market will be destroyed and that provide us with some freedom again.
My dream would be to feel secure and comfortable enough to cut down on work and either start volunteering in the community or start my own initiative checking on the vulnerable people like OAPs and helping them by getting shopping for them or taking them to appointments or maybe join or start a club or organization that upcycles or fixes things that people would otherwise throw away. Consumerism is a curse. I was just watching an episode of the TV show 1923 and a character was introduced to the concept of a washing machine and the cowboy's response was something like "instead of working for myself and my family, I'll just be working to pay you back". It kind of encapsulated how I feel about modern "advances". A lot of the time we are just forced to get on board because the majority has moved on. I think that we should consider changes very carefully before we move forward, hence I'm a conservative, but I'm not a Conservative. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:25 - Nov 22 with 1836 views | fab_lover |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 09:33 - Nov 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
If a job is paying half the minimum wage with the rest topped up by the state, then that company is exploiting the situation.
This is never acceptable. If a company can't run unless it's paying people half the minimum wage then it's not a viable business and should be wound up. |
IMHO, no employee should be paid more than 10 times the wage of the lowest paid employee in the company.
Note, I said "employee", so if you set up your own company that you own, then that doesn't apply. But otherwise, even if you are "C-suite" in the company, you ain't worth more than 10 times the lowest paid person there, and yes, that includes share options and pension contributions.
There IS enough money. It's just that there is unlimited greed. The market does NOT self-regulate, and neither do the rich. It needs to be done for them, otherwise the rich-poor divide will just keep on increasing. |  | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:43 - Nov 22 with 1783 views | WeWereZombies |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:24 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
"educate yourself" is the most condescending thing to say and automatically puts people in the mindset to totally ignore an sensible thing you might say. How about not being so adversarial and rude?
It is great if a company can make the living wage work for them, but there are certain jobs that even the minimum wage makes unviable and you have to balance the incentive to replace people with technology. The wages have to be set based on the market. The minimum wage either forces a pay rise or makes a job unviable. It also has a major inflationary effect.
There is another important point, and that is companies using the minimum wage as a way of scrounging off the state who has to foot the bill for housing benefit, etc. Companies like Tesco are known for this. I would charge the employers for the housing benefit up to point of the company no longer being able to make a net profit from the entire business. |
So is this your argument for a Universal Basic Income ? Lay off the workers whose contribution is valued less than a machine or who have to rely on benefits because their income cannot meet their personal needs. |  |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:50 - Nov 22 with 1768 views | OldFart71 |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:45 - Nov 20 by J2BLUE |
Zero.
When people are giving up their time to do a crap job it's just a bit of a stretch to say the current £11.44 an hour minimum is generous. Especially when it's then taxed.
I do feel for businesses and think they should have introduced a wealth tax instead to raise funds. |
I do feel the problem isn't what's paid as with someone on say £25,000 per annum it's that you only get about half of that tax free, then N.I. on top of that which and I may be wrong, takes the total of the remainder reduced by some 37% because Sunak froze the personal allowance at £12,570 until 2028 which means that I as a pensioner because I get a company pension on top of the State pension means every year Government tax take goes up when I receive the extra SP and that also applies to those working. If you don't work you can claim many extra's depending on your level of benefits and whilst I am not having a go at genuine claimants there are many who are getting more than those working or retired and help is more available to them as well. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:57 - Nov 22 with 1739 views | WeWereZombies |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:50 - Nov 22 by OldFart71 |
I do feel the problem isn't what's paid as with someone on say £25,000 per annum it's that you only get about half of that tax free, then N.I. on top of that which and I may be wrong, takes the total of the remainder reduced by some 37% because Sunak froze the personal allowance at £12,570 until 2028 which means that I as a pensioner because I get a company pension on top of the State pension means every year Government tax take goes up when I receive the extra SP and that also applies to those working. If you don't work you can claim many extra's depending on your level of benefits and whilst I am not having a go at genuine claimants there are many who are getting more than those working or retired and help is more available to them as well. |
When you say there are 'many' claimants who are getting more than those in work do you mean a number over a thousand, for example, or a significant percentage...or something else ? | |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 11:55 - Nov 22 with 1694 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:25 - Nov 22 by fab_lover |
IMHO, no employee should be paid more than 10 times the wage of the lowest paid employee in the company.
Note, I said "employee", so if you set up your own company that you own, then that doesn't apply. But otherwise, even if you are "C-suite" in the company, you ain't worth more than 10 times the lowest paid person there, and yes, that includes share options and pension contributions.
There IS enough money. It's just that there is unlimited greed. The market does NOT self-regulate, and neither do the rich. It needs to be done for them, otherwise the rich-poor divide will just keep on increasing. |
"There IS enough money, there's just unlimited greed"
Think you've hit the nail on the head there. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 11:59 - Nov 22 with 1689 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:57 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies |
When you say there are 'many' claimants who are getting more than those in work do you mean a number over a thousand, for example, or a significant percentage...or something else ? |
I'm betting he has no idea and it's just a concept he's plucked out of his head.
You see this a lot from old people, my parents included, thinking there are loads of people scamming the system, having an easy life just living on benefits when they can work. When you actually look into the facts it's a very very small percentage. And as someone who has been on Universal Credit, it's not an easy/fun life. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 12:10 - Nov 22 with 1678 views | WeWereZombies |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 11:59 - Nov 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm betting he has no idea and it's just a concept he's plucked out of his head.
You see this a lot from old people, my parents included, thinking there are loads of people scamming the system, having an easy life just living on benefits when they can work. When you actually look into the facts it's a very very small percentage. And as someone who has been on Universal Credit, it's not an easy/fun life. |
Well thanks, having enquired (perhaps with an oblique agenda) about one poster's assumption I am now subjected to another poster's assumption that us oldies all have Daily Mail attitudes. It is the same conversation, almost, that I had with London Irish ex~girlfriend's sister back in the summer when she stated that East Anglia was all Reform types just because some voters in Clacton had let us down.
[edit: I do, on reflection, fit the stereotype of grumpy and argumentative old man some times, but I wouldn't have to if the rest of the stupid human race thought the way I do.] [Post edited 22 Nov 2024 12:14]
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 13:23 - Nov 22 with 1611 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 12:10 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies |
Well thanks, having enquired (perhaps with an oblique agenda) about one poster's assumption I am now subjected to another poster's assumption that us oldies all have Daily Mail attitudes. It is the same conversation, almost, that I had with London Irish ex~girlfriend's sister back in the summer when she stated that East Anglia was all Reform types just because some voters in Clacton had let us down.
[edit: I do, on reflection, fit the stereotype of grumpy and argumentative old man some times, but I wouldn't have to if the rest of the stupid human race thought the way I do.] [Post edited 22 Nov 2024 12:14]
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Once again, what is it with people on TWTD not able to read properly?!
I said: "You see this a lot from old people". A lot. As in quite often. You've translated that in your head to "us oldies all have Daily Mail attitudes".
I just don't know what to do. Should I just give up posting altogether? Should I post in capitals?!? Should I write my posts on paper, roll them up and push them up my arris?
Answers on a postcard. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 13:27 - Nov 22 with 1601 views | leitrimblue |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 13:23 - Nov 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Once again, what is it with people on TWTD not able to read properly?!
I said: "You see this a lot from old people". A lot. As in quite often. You've translated that in your head to "us oldies all have Daily Mail attitudes".
I just don't know what to do. Should I just give up posting altogether? Should I post in capitals?!? Should I write my posts on paper, roll them up and push them up my arris?
Answers on a postcard. |
If I put my answer down on a postcard and send it to you, do you promise not to roll it up and push it up yer arris? |  | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 13:35 - Nov 22 with 1573 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 23:29 - Nov 21 by Europablue |
If a job can be provided to a long-term unemployed person even at half the minimum wage with the rest topped up by the state, it is a net benefit compared to the state paying the full price. Also, a job gives a person a purpose and provides a sense of self-worth.
The important part is that company is not exploiting the situation and under representing the value of the labour. |
Its not a net benefit, except to the employer who is making a profit. The state is subsidising the employer, to pay below proper market value, for a job which is uneconomical.
Such employers CANNOT honestly complain about tax rises whilst getting that sort of subsidy and making a profit.
Logically, of course, your position would appear to mean that you are in favour of the state subsidising uneconomic industries or companies. Coal mines for instance in the 70s and 80s? Steel now? [Post edited 22 Nov 2024 13:46]
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 13:53 - Nov 22 with 1537 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 13:27 - Nov 22 by leitrimblue |
If I put my answer down on a postcard and send it to you, do you promise not to roll it up and push it up yer arris? |
Depends how thick the card is. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 18:50 - Nov 22 with 1459 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 10:25 - Nov 22 by fab_lover |
IMHO, no employee should be paid more than 10 times the wage of the lowest paid employee in the company.
Note, I said "employee", so if you set up your own company that you own, then that doesn't apply. But otherwise, even if you are "C-suite" in the company, you ain't worth more than 10 times the lowest paid person there, and yes, that includes share options and pension contributions.
There IS enough money. It's just that there is unlimited greed. The market does NOT self-regulate, and neither do the rich. It needs to be done for them, otherwise the rich-poor divide will just keep on increasing. |
WTF???
So a person bringing in £100m in sales isn't worth 10 times more than a warehouseman? |  |
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| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 19:05 - Nov 22 with 1437 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 18:50 - Nov 22 by Lord_Lucan |
WTF???
So a person bringing in £100m in sales isn't worth 10 times more than a warehouseman? |
Given that the sales are worthless without warehousemen.... it rather depends on your perspective. | | | |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 20:59 - Nov 22 with 1381 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Good Old Labour increasing the price of everything. on 19:05 - Nov 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Given that the sales are worthless without warehousemen.... it rather depends on your perspective. |
Blimey.
How childish. | |
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