| Jack Clarke 23:46 - Dec 27 with 9018 views | FrimleyBlue |
Either a very expensive mistake
Or one we really really are developing into a very versatile player but will take 2/3 seasons to be it.. |  |
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| Jack Clarke on 20:41 - Dec 28 with 2184 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Jack Clarke on 20:31 - Dec 28 by Vic |
So you’re saying that MK and MA knew that stat and just disregarded it? Or maybe they knew the stat and thought we can work with him and improve him?
Or are you saying those who signed him are just incompetent? |
Obviously the thoughts would be to be able to develop him.
However that's a hefty wedge of cash to spend on someone with that alarming rate of losing the ball in a lower league than the one you've brought him in for. Even more odd when you consider we are making his Job harder at keeping the the ball when we are asking him to be our version of a left sided forward compared to what he was doing and making him come inside where there's more players to take the ball off him. Etc
20 mill for a 23 year old from championship was mad anyway yet alone learning of that stat today. Imo it's even madder | |
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| Jack Clarke on 00:15 - Dec 29 with 2052 views | itfcsuth |
Looks a long long way away, right now you’d have to say it’s a really expensive mistake.
Not just the figure paid out, but when you are bringing in a J.Clarke & O.Hutchinson for them fees, they are really the ones you turning to for the firepower, creativity and X factor.
The reality is neither have delivered enough so far. |  | | |
| Jack Clarke on 08:48 - Dec 29 with 1964 views | WolfieAtTheBack |
In some ways you have to feel a bit for Jack, he is been asked to play a role he clearly cannot do at this level. Not really sure what is position is at Town, is he a left midfielder as he is not an out and out attacker, it's all very confusing to watch and it must be double confusing for Jack who was the best player in a team last year and now he is very much not.
It seems a very strange signing and 20m could have been spent surely on a player who could play the role the coaching staff actually wanted from the start of the season.
His role before at Sunderland was someone passed to him and he ran until he either got a shot away, crossed or was pulled down for a free kick. [Post edited 29 Dec 2024 8:49]
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| Jack Clarke on 09:09 - Dec 29 with 1921 views | MK1 |
Jack Clarke is a very, very talented football player. Think he is just struggling a bit with the way we play as apposed to Sunderland. We need to keep him and hope he learns quickly. I loved him at Sunderland and think I will at Ipswich. |  |
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| Jack Clarke on 11:14 - Dec 29 with 1833 views | OldFart71 |
| Jack Clarke on 09:40 - Dec 28 by Churchman |
He’s very talented and will fine. He’s not as complete a player as I thought he was watching him at Sunderland, but there’s a lot to his game and more to come. He will learn.
It has to be remembered he’s playing in a struggling team, often in a position he is not used to. Has he progressed at Omari’s rate? No. But then doing that in the PL is a lot more difficult than the wide open spaces of the New Den. Has he settled into the club and the area? Only he can answer that. [Post edited 28 Dec 2024 10:39]
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I would suggest Hutchinson hasn't exactly been the player of last season. As with most of our players it's a big step up. Probably greater than that from Division One to the Championship. But even then certain teams dominate that division as we saw last season with four teams slugging it out for three places. We had a situation at the end of last season where loan players went back to their clubs, a few weren't good enough even for the Championship, some were allowed to leave due to injuries and one retired. So 12 players to replace. Due to fair play rules it was a case of keeping our best, loans and bringing in some on transfer fees at around 100 million total and leaving some for January. Injuries have also affected the ability to have a settled team with the necessary back up. | | | |
| Jack Clarke on 11:56 - Dec 29 with 1794 views | Churchman |
| Jack Clarke on 11:14 - Dec 29 by OldFart71 |
I would suggest Hutchinson hasn't exactly been the player of last season. As with most of our players it's a big step up. Probably greater than that from Division One to the Championship. But even then certain teams dominate that division as we saw last season with four teams slugging it out for three places. We had a situation at the end of last season where loan players went back to their clubs, a few weren't good enough even for the Championship, some were allowed to leave due to injuries and one retired. So 12 players to replace. Due to fair play rules it was a case of keeping our best, loans and bringing in some on transfer fees at around 100 million total and leaving some for January. Injuries have also affected the ability to have a settled team with the necessary back up. |
I think Hutchinson has been the player of last season. However, he’s been playing in an unsettled side that makes a lot of changes every week. You can see him looking for players at times - he knew where they were last season. He’s also playing against far far better opposition with no space.
I still think his best position is out wide. He’ll be a through the middle player one day, but not quite yet. He’s very much work in progress and it’s easy to forget how far off it he was at the start of last season. |  | | |
| Jack Clarke on 17:59 - Dec 29 with 1694 views | Wickets |
I just don't see him playing in the same side as Leif , well not in our system anyway . |  | | |
| Jack Clarke on 18:30 - Dec 29 with 1632 views | WolfieAtTheBack |
| Jack Clarke on 17:59 - Dec 29 by Wickets |
I just don't see him playing in the same side as Leif , well not in our system anyway . |
We have bought a player who does not fit our system basically then.
Odd signing. | | | |
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| Jack Clarke on 19:01 - Dec 29 with 1566 views | Dubtractor |
| Jack Clarke on 20:41 - Dec 28 by FrimleyBlue |
Obviously the thoughts would be to be able to develop him.
However that's a hefty wedge of cash to spend on someone with that alarming rate of losing the ball in a lower league than the one you've brought him in for. Even more odd when you consider we are making his Job harder at keeping the the ball when we are asking him to be our version of a left sided forward compared to what he was doing and making him come inside where there's more players to take the ball off him. Etc
20 mill for a 23 year old from championship was mad anyway yet alone learning of that stat today. Imo it's even madder |
I think you're reacting a bit too heavily to a single stat that you've just heard without any context to it, to be completely honest.
How many attempted dribbles did he make compared to others? What are the lost ball stats for other similar players?
Just spotted that Summerville has come on for West Ham, having signed there for big money in the Summer and widely considered as the best winger in the Championship last season, and it looks like he's made as little impression there as Clarke has here.
The big issue is the physicality of the premier league, but to get that physicality AND the technical stuff costs megabucks. |  |
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| Jack Clarke on 19:07 - Dec 29 with 1541 views | TractorWood |
| Jack Clarke on 19:01 - Dec 29 by Dubtractor |
I think you're reacting a bit too heavily to a single stat that you've just heard without any context to it, to be completely honest.
How many attempted dribbles did he make compared to others? What are the lost ball stats for other similar players?
Just spotted that Summerville has come on for West Ham, having signed there for big money in the Summer and widely considered as the best winger in the Championship last season, and it looks like he's made as little impression there as Clarke has here.
The big issue is the physicality of the premier league, but to get that physicality AND the technical stuff costs megabucks. |
Summerville looks lively and direct. Albeit he does have a habit of just aimlessly running at people in every situation. All he seems to know. Just like Clarke.
West Ham seem to be gradually introducing him off the bench too in the hope that he develops more nuance and more of an idea of what is going on in the game.
I think both clubs have overpaid for one dimensional players. It's just a dimension that looked great in the Championship. [Post edited 29 Dec 2024 19:08]
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| Jack Clarke on 19:20 - Dec 29 with 1508 views | Dubtractor |
| Jack Clarke on 19:07 - Dec 29 by TractorWood |
Summerville looks lively and direct. Albeit he does have a habit of just aimlessly running at people in every situation. All he seems to know. Just like Clarke.
West Ham seem to be gradually introducing him off the bench too in the hope that he develops more nuance and more of an idea of what is going on in the game.
I think both clubs have overpaid for one dimensional players. It's just a dimension that looked great in the Championship. [Post edited 29 Dec 2024 19:08]
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FWIW I think that Clarke has been our most disappointing signing, based on the evidence to date, but its not because he loses the ball too often, he just seems unable to impact games at all.
Here's hoping he has a second half of the season improvement like Omari had last season! | |
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| Jack Clarke on 21:23 - Dec 29 with 1434 views | Millsey |
| Jack Clarke on 23:47 - Dec 27 by bournemouthblue |
He'll look great in the Championship no doubts, you do wonder if he needs a loan and we find someone a bit more ready right now
I think he will come good but it may take a season or so before we see the best from him |
I like him so the rest moan on !!!! |  | | |
| Jack Clarke on 10:45 - Dec 30 with 1250 views | Metal_Hacker |
What I’m struggling with is his inability -
“to play in our style “
“He’s still learning “
“It’s a new position “
I understand games are a lot different to the training pitch but ….
Is it normal taking this long to get up to speed ?
Has to be an expensive mistake for me
This league is ruthless and we’ve not time to wait around |  |
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| Jack Clarke on 10:54 - Dec 30 with 1212 views | Stewart27 |
| Jack Clarke on 20:31 - Dec 28 by Vic |
So you’re saying that MK and MA knew that stat and just disregarded it? Or maybe they knew the stat and thought we can work with him and improve him?
Or are you saying those who signed him are just incompetent? |
Isn’t there a stat that says he completed the most amount of dribbles in the box as well?
Maybe somebody can stick that in their little stat computer. | | | |
| Jack Clarke on 12:47 - Dec 30 with 1104 views | Churchman |
| Jack Clarke on 19:20 - Dec 29 by Dubtractor |
FWIW I think that Clarke has been our most disappointing signing, based on the evidence to date, but its not because he loses the ball too often, he just seems unable to impact games at all.
Here's hoping he has a second half of the season improvement like Omari had last season! |
I know some love putting the boot in on our players. I get it. But I think that picking on a stat and building an argument on it is not right. Then when building a case to destroy it’s as good a way as any I suppose. Bit like ignoring anything positive about Muric.
Has Clarke been a disappointment? For me, yes. I thought he’d make a bigger impact. I also thought he’d be a first choice player and the team geared to play to his strengths as it was at Sunderland. He is one heck of a talented footballer but has mostly played bit parts, sometimes at the end of games already done, usually with no midfield behind him.
Has he settled here? No idea. What does McKenna plan for him? No idea. Is he for now or the future? No idea. Has his game improved? Well he knows what the PL looks like - a helluva lot tougher than the slow motion, error riddled Championship rubbish I have watched in the last week or two. I suspect he’s learned a lot and will be all the better for it, but probably not this season.
So did we overpay? Everybody is overpaying. Coventry paid £7m in the championship for Simms who at the moment (2 goals, 20 appearances this season) looks no more capable of playing in the PL than doing a 9 dart finish. Summerville - terrific for Leeds. £25m on the bench for West Ham. So yes, we may have overpaid depending on the inexact science of who you compare him with. That’s not down to him.
Will Clarke come good? He has such ability that if he keeps working at it I think so. I’d like to see him start more games, particularly with Delap on one side, Szmodics behind and Hutchinson the other side. Something like that - try and stretch teams. At the moment because we don’t control the midfield the forwards are left on scraps - which makes what Delap has done all the more remarkable.
For me Phillips has been far more disappointing than Clarke. Perhaps they’ll both come good in the new year. | | | |
| Jack Clarke on 12:50 - Dec 30 with 1095 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Jack Clarke on 10:54 - Dec 30 by Stewart27 |
Isn’t there a stat that says he completed the most amount of dribbles in the box as well?
Maybe somebody can stick that in their little stat computer. |
He probably was quite high on that, but he's not playing that role for us, which makes his signing a strange one all things considered. | |
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| Jack Clarke on 13:05 - Dec 30 with 1051 views | algy |
| Jack Clarke on 12:47 - Dec 30 by Churchman |
I know some love putting the boot in on our players. I get it. But I think that picking on a stat and building an argument on it is not right. Then when building a case to destroy it’s as good a way as any I suppose. Bit like ignoring anything positive about Muric.
Has Clarke been a disappointment? For me, yes. I thought he’d make a bigger impact. I also thought he’d be a first choice player and the team geared to play to his strengths as it was at Sunderland. He is one heck of a talented footballer but has mostly played bit parts, sometimes at the end of games already done, usually with no midfield behind him.
Has he settled here? No idea. What does McKenna plan for him? No idea. Is he for now or the future? No idea. Has his game improved? Well he knows what the PL looks like - a helluva lot tougher than the slow motion, error riddled Championship rubbish I have watched in the last week or two. I suspect he’s learned a lot and will be all the better for it, but probably not this season.
So did we overpay? Everybody is overpaying. Coventry paid £7m in the championship for Simms who at the moment (2 goals, 20 appearances this season) looks no more capable of playing in the PL than doing a 9 dart finish. Summerville - terrific for Leeds. £25m on the bench for West Ham. So yes, we may have overpaid depending on the inexact science of who you compare him with. That’s not down to him.
Will Clarke come good? He has such ability that if he keeps working at it I think so. I’d like to see him start more games, particularly with Delap on one side, Szmodics behind and Hutchinson the other side. Something like that - try and stretch teams. At the moment because we don’t control the midfield the forwards are left on scraps - which makes what Delap has done all the more remarkable.
For me Phillips has been far more disappointing than Clarke. Perhaps they’ll both come good in the new year. |
"slow motion, error riddled". Sounds like a lot of our attempts at going forward this season. | |
| Veni Vidi Participatur. Now we can get back to competing. |
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| Jack Clarke on 13:13 - Dec 30 with 1025 views | Churchman |
| Jack Clarke on 13:05 - Dec 30 by algy |
"slow motion, error riddled". Sounds like a lot of our attempts at going forward this season. |
Certainly does. The opposition, particularly in the middle look so much more skilled, stronger and quicker. Against Newcastle, when we did get beyond our own penalty area it felt like it was at best 4 passes before the opposition took it off us or we passed it to them with an apologetic hand in the air. | | | |
| Jack Clarke on 13:39 - Dec 30 with 984 views | itfc_statman |
| Jack Clarke on 11:07 - Dec 28 by Churchman |
He also scored 15 goals, was their outstanding player by a mile and one of the best in the Championship. That often gets you a move to the Premier League.
You can argue it both ways. [Post edited 28 Dec 2024 11:14]
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It's about contextualising for the league above though. It's not necessarily our recruitment, it's a reality for any promoted team.
When you combine his stats last season, he was very unfortunate to have more assists. 4 is a below average return but his teammates poor finishing was more responsible for that than himself. He shoul have had 9 or 10 assists.
Goal wise, he scored 15 from 11.43 xG. So good finishing. The problem is for his goal and assist count he needed 63 touches per game. That would concern me as we know we aren't going to have as much of the ball. Also, all his goals were scored with his right-foot, so he's pretty predictable at the top level.
Even that isn't a problem if he has "weapon" attributes. Coaches always talk about "weapons" - they're hard to find and hard to integrate but it's what makes the difference at this level. Jack isn't particularly strong, quick, two-footed, powerful etc. Limitations.
If we take the championship player most likely to move this season then it'd be Sainz from those down the road - he's scored 15 goals already this season from Clarke's position.
Now, he's only needed 45 touches a game. More interesting. He's not particularly quick though he is "tenacious" as we see from his ball recoveries and interceptions per game (but these are only marginally better than Clarke).
Where I see a weapon is the fact he has a goal conversion of 21% vs Clarkes 14% last season. These margins matter.
And for what it's worth, I don't think we should go for Sainz either because he's not enough of a weapon at the top level. But he is more weapon-ish than Clarke.
I'd be looking for the next Semenyo instead (but aren't all clubs?) - quick, strong profile, scores with both feet, only averaged 25 touches a game for Bristol City but made thins happen when he did get it. | | | |
| Jack Clarke on 14:11 - Dec 30 with 951 views | _clive_baker_ |
The sort of player who would look unplayable in small sided games I imagine. His close control is really good, has such good feet, low centre of gravity, loves to drop his shoulder and can beat a man.
Problem he's got is he's as weak as a kitten and has about as much upper body strength as Lee Martin. You have to be something extraordinary to compensate at this level and I'm not sure he is. Against big, fast, strong, 6ft 3, seasoned international defenders he's been eaten up with relative ease so far. He's certainly capable of making something happen and chipping in with a big contribution a la Sarmiento because he has the talent, and I'm not ruling that out, but that's not enough. Physically he's miles off it. |  | | |
| Jack Clarke on 16:30 - Dec 30 with 834 views | itfcjoe |
| Jack Clarke on 14:11 - Dec 30 by _clive_baker_ |
The sort of player who would look unplayable in small sided games I imagine. His close control is really good, has such good feet, low centre of gravity, loves to drop his shoulder and can beat a man.
Problem he's got is he's as weak as a kitten and has about as much upper body strength as Lee Martin. You have to be something extraordinary to compensate at this level and I'm not sure he is. Against big, fast, strong, 6ft 3, seasoned international defenders he's been eaten up with relative ease so far. He's certainly capable of making something happen and chipping in with a big contribution a la Sarmiento because he has the talent, and I'm not ruling that out, but that's not enough. Physically he's miles off it. |
Made a good contribution at Wolves with the corner, but even then when Doyle pings that beautiful ball over the top to Cunha about 2 inches above H.Clarke's head, it was J.Clarke who had just been shrugged off the ball and totally saw us turned round for that.
It's a real worry, he just ends up putting the ball in places where it is simple for the defender to get in between him and where it is and it's turns into a transition. If you can't protect the ball well, you have to be able to ensure that if you lose it that it doesn't turn into their attack straight away and make it difficult |  |
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| Jack Clarke on 16:41 - Dec 30 with 803 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Jack Clarke on 16:30 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Made a good contribution at Wolves with the corner, but even then when Doyle pings that beautiful ball over the top to Cunha about 2 inches above H.Clarke's head, it was J.Clarke who had just been shrugged off the ball and totally saw us turned round for that.
It's a real worry, he just ends up putting the ball in places where it is simple for the defender to get in between him and where it is and it's turns into a transition. If you can't protect the ball well, you have to be able to ensure that if you lose it that it doesn't turn into their attack straight away and make it difficult |
Made a good contribution at Southampton too. Got past his man to win us the corner that Morsy scored off on the 2nd phase. He'll continue to do that, he's 100% got contributions in him as Sarmiento did last season. He's certainly got ability, on paper I think he's a more gifted footballer than the likes of Chaplin, Burns and Szmodics. Unlike them he just isn't very street wise, he's meek and submissive, and ultimately isn't getting minutes because he can't be trusted at the moment. Not trusted to not pick the ball up and ping one in from 20 yards, but as you say trusted to play the percentages, use the ball well, look after it, demonstrate tactical discipline and make us hard to play against.
He's like an 18 year old academy graduate who can probably serve as a wildcard off the bench but is too raw for much more. Problem is he isn't 18, he's 24, he needs to step up. | | | |
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