| Dresden Destroyed 13:25 - Feb 13 with 2017 views | Churchman |
Today marks the 80th anniversary of the destruction of Dresden and if ever there was a lesson to be learned about the horror of war it is that. There is a lot of myth and misinformation about the Dresden attacks. Here is my summary of it.
On the night of 13th February 1945 800 RAF aircraft attacked the city. Weather and the make up of Dresden led to a firestorm of catastrophic and horrific proportions. The USAF followed the raid up attacking the City on 14th and 15th. About 4000 tons of bombs were dropped in total.
The RAF lost 6 Lancasters, 2 by collision, and the US 1 B17. Casualties are subject to myth, legend and guess. Figures published tend to say up to 25,000. A post war German assessment is 18-23,000. Truly horrific.
Interestingly, Goebbels added a zero to the initial best guess and proclaimed 250,000. It is that figure that appears in many histories today and remains one of the most effective bits of propaganda ever.
So should the attack have taken place? Despite popular myth, Dresden from 1939 on was on the top 10 target list. Factories, rail hub etc there were many reasons to assault it. It wasn’t attacked because of distance, so the first to target it were the Americans late and 44 early 45.
Stalin wanted it attacked to help with his advance and given the proximity of the Russian army I think the allies were not against a ‘show of strength’. Harris exclusively got the blame and the American part scrubbed from popular narrative. But I believe accountability goes higher than that.
Context is important. After years of grisly conflict, the Japanese still fighting, the death camps being discovered, the political and potential military challenge from Russia were all in the mix. Who paid? The people plus refugees of Dresden.
So do I think it was justified? I can understand why it took place but by 1945 the war was as good as won and use of resources in destroying oil, transport, armed forces seemed a better way to go. But this is 21st century hindsight.
It was not a war crime as apologists like to claim. That’s mostly something to pin on the Germans and Russians. It was an act of war - but in my view a raid too far. Destruction of Germany from the air made sense but not after spring 1944 when DDay was on, German air defence degraded and the targeted effectiveness of allied airforces so clear.
The lesson is to prevent such horrors happening again. Part of this is recognising and containing those who positively embrace it, such as Putin.
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| Dresden Destroyed on 13:35 - Feb 13 with 1971 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
He sadly passed away last month, but a few months ago I met an RAF Flight Engineer who flew a full tour of duty in Lancasters, including a mission over Dresden during the bombing of the city.
I've also met a Mosquito pilot who is still alive and well, who also did a full tour.
Being part of a Bomber Command crew during the Second World War sounds bloody terrifying. 50% fatality rates speak for themselves. |  |
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| Dresden Destroyed on 13:59 - Feb 13 with 1897 views | Churchman |
| Dresden Destroyed on 13:35 - Feb 13 by ThisIsMyUsername |
He sadly passed away last month, but a few months ago I met an RAF Flight Engineer who flew a full tour of duty in Lancasters, including a mission over Dresden during the bombing of the city.
I've also met a Mosquito pilot who is still alive and well, who also did a full tour.
Being part of a Bomber Command crew during the Second World War sounds bloody terrifying. 50% fatality rates speak for themselves. |
It does. Frankly I don’t know how they did it. Not everyone could, of course. Phenomenal bravery and skill.
To fly a Mosquito you needed to be a top pilot. Only the best went in to them because they were actually quite tricky to fly. A truly unique and brilliant aeroplane. One of the best of WW2 from any air force. | | | |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:21 - Feb 13 with 1841 views | bsw72 |
Hmmm, appreciate it is 80 years but why not discuss Hamburg which suffered a longer more sustained campaign in the last week of July '43 which resulted in an equally horrific firestorm and over 35K deaths.
The argument that the war was coming to an end in Feb 1945 is made in hindsight, considering that the Battle of the Bulge had just cost the allies 80K plus casualties through December and January and the allied forces had yet to cross the Rhine; there was genuine concern that the assault on Germany could result in many thousands more deaths.
There was particular concern that Hitler would authorise the use of his tabun shell stockpile on the allied forces. |  | | |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:37 - Feb 13 with 1791 views | Churchman |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:21 - Feb 13 by bsw72 |
Hmmm, appreciate it is 80 years but why not discuss Hamburg which suffered a longer more sustained campaign in the last week of July '43 which resulted in an equally horrific firestorm and over 35K deaths.
The argument that the war was coming to an end in Feb 1945 is made in hindsight, considering that the Battle of the Bulge had just cost the allies 80K plus casualties through December and January and the allied forces had yet to cross the Rhine; there was genuine concern that the assault on Germany could result in many thousands more deaths.
There was particular concern that Hitler would authorise the use of his tabun shell stockpile on the allied forces. |
I have to agree with your middle paragraph. How to finish the Germans in the fastest possible time. And hindsight is always 100% right. Interesting debate though.
My view on whether or not the raid should have taken place was around how the strategic airforces were being used and the level of opposition after DDay. In fact before it the Eighth AF and Bomber Command were used for oils, comms, transport, V1 sites etc etc rather than area bombing in advance of June 44.
There was debate at the time on best use to the point of some wanting Arthur Harris removed because of his adherence to area bombing. Or maybe their fear of him mixed with their ambition.
I didn’t choose the Hamburg raids simply because today marks the 80th anniversary of the Dresden attacks.
Operation Gomorrah took place July 1943. It is an astonishing event with many interesting (and ghastly) facets to it. The casualty numbers are actually far greater than the Dresden raids. Little known because it doesn’t suit the American narrative, is that two of the attacks were conducted by the American Eighth Air Force.
I’ll do a paragraph on it in the summer. [Post edited 13 Feb 14:41]
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| Dresden Destroyed on 14:42 - Feb 13 with 1775 views | Steve_M |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:37 - Feb 13 by Churchman |
I have to agree with your middle paragraph. How to finish the Germans in the fastest possible time. And hindsight is always 100% right. Interesting debate though.
My view on whether or not the raid should have taken place was around how the strategic airforces were being used and the level of opposition after DDay. In fact before it the Eighth AF and Bomber Command were used for oils, comms, transport, V1 sites etc etc rather than area bombing in advance of June 44.
There was debate at the time on best use to the point of some wanting Arthur Harris removed because of his adherence to area bombing. Or maybe their fear of him mixed with their ambition.
I didn’t choose the Hamburg raids simply because today marks the 80th anniversary of the Dresden attacks.
Operation Gomorrah took place July 1943. It is an astonishing event with many interesting (and ghastly) facets to it. The casualty numbers are actually far greater than the Dresden raids. Little known because it doesn’t suit the American narrative, is that two of the attacks were conducted by the American Eighth Air Force.
I’ll do a paragraph on it in the summer. [Post edited 13 Feb 14:41]
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On BSW's correct point that no-one knew how long the war would last in February 1945, have either of you read Ian Kershaw's 'The End? It's an account of why Germany resisted as long a it did, short answer a combination of fanaticism, fear of reprisals from the state and fear of the Russians. It's very good though. |  |
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| Dresden Destroyed on 14:50 - Feb 13 with 1738 views | Churchman |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:42 - Feb 13 by Steve_M |
On BSW's correct point that no-one knew how long the war would last in February 1945, have either of you read Ian Kershaw's 'The End? It's an account of why Germany resisted as long a it did, short answer a combination of fanaticism, fear of reprisals from the state and fear of the Russians. It's very good though. |
I haven’t, Steve. I will do though. Thanks
I have read Beevor’s ‘Berlin’ which is a sobering assessment on the collapse of Germany, not just the assault on Berlin itself. I’ve read other books on it too, including German views.
Yes, BSWs point is certainly right. | | | |
| Dresden Destroyed on 15:00 - Feb 13 with 1700 views | bsw72 |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:42 - Feb 13 by Steve_M |
On BSW's correct point that no-one knew how long the war would last in February 1945, have either of you read Ian Kershaw's 'The End? It's an account of why Germany resisted as long a it did, short answer a combination of fanaticism, fear of reprisals from the state and fear of the Russians. It's very good though. |
Yes, it's a good book. I find Richard Overy an excellent historian as well - especially when looking at German history in that period from the early 30s through to the end of WW2. | | | |
| Dresden Destroyed on 16:26 - Feb 13 with 1594 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| Dresden Destroyed on 13:59 - Feb 13 by Churchman |
It does. Frankly I don’t know how they did it. Not everyone could, of course. Phenomenal bravery and skill.
To fly a Mosquito you needed to be a top pilot. Only the best went in to them because they were actually quite tricky to fly. A truly unique and brilliant aeroplane. One of the best of WW2 from any air force. |
The FE had his log books which were fascinating to look at. He'd often go out on multiple missions in the space of a few days, in daytime or at night, with all the missions lasting several hours. He told me how he'd regularly wake up in the morning to the news that a crew who shared his accommodation had been lost during the night. His plane was damaged a number of times by flak.
The Mosquito pilot chose voluntarily to go to Bomber Command despite knowing the risks and the losses; he said he had faith in the standard of training he'd received from the Americans. They were mainly there as a 'nuisance', bombing Gestapo HQs and the like. He did several missions over Berlin itself. [Post edited 13 Feb 17:14]
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| Dresden Destroyed on 16:42 - Feb 13 with 1544 views | Benters |
| Dresden Destroyed on 13:35 - Feb 13 by ThisIsMyUsername |
He sadly passed away last month, but a few months ago I met an RAF Flight Engineer who flew a full tour of duty in Lancasters, including a mission over Dresden during the bombing of the city.
I've also met a Mosquito pilot who is still alive and well, who also did a full tour.
Being part of a Bomber Command crew during the Second World War sounds bloody terrifying. 50% fatality rates speak for themselves. |
When I first started work in the building trade I worked with a bricklayer who was a navigator on a Lancaster.
He was a lovely kind man,he never spoke of it,but then I’ve seen it said many didn’t they chose to forget. |  |
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| Dresden Destroyed on 17:38 - Feb 13 with 1458 views | jontysnut |
Slightly tangential - a friend did a guided tour round Berlin. He said to the guide I really like all the wide roads and open spaces. Yes, said the guide, for this we must thank your RAF. |  | | |
| Dresden Destroyed on 17:58 - Feb 13 with 1431 views | Keno |
I had the pleasure of taking one my eldest daughter's boyfriends to an Air Show. He found the Lancaster fascinating and a very large donation to the RAF benevolent fund.
Interestingly he was from Dresden
His only comment was 'We dont begrudge what the RAF did, we just wish the Britsand Yanks had got to use before the Russians" [Post edited 13 Feb 17:58]
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| Dresden Destroyed on 18:01 - Feb 13 with 1413 views | Churchman |
| Dresden Destroyed on 16:26 - Feb 13 by ThisIsMyUsername |
The FE had his log books which were fascinating to look at. He'd often go out on multiple missions in the space of a few days, in daytime or at night, with all the missions lasting several hours. He told me how he'd regularly wake up in the morning to the news that a crew who shared his accommodation had been lost during the night. His plane was damaged a number of times by flak.
The Mosquito pilot chose voluntarily to go to Bomber Command despite knowing the risks and the losses; he said he had faith in the standard of training he'd received from the Americans. They were mainly there as a 'nuisance', bombing Gestapo HQs and the like. He did several missions over Berlin itself. [Post edited 13 Feb 17:14]
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On one famous occasion they timed a raid on Berlin exactly at the time Goering was to make a radio broadcast. Chaos ensued and Herman wasn't a happy bunny.
Using knowledge gained from the DH88 Comet racer (in the Shuttleworth Collection) DH98 was conceived as a high speed reconnaissance aircraft its speed planned to negate the need for defensive armament. After a fight with Beaverbrook who wanted concentration on existing types it was built and teething troubles like cooling, trim overcome.
The Ministry of Aircraft Production asked for a defensive turret to be added. De Havillands said ok and ignored it. Third prototype was built with 20mm cannons and machine guns and would go on to replace the excellent Beaufighter in Nightfighter role.
When the Ministry people saw it flying in developed form, they wanted it. The prototype was actually faster than a Spitfire, though of course it had no kit on it so was considerably lighter than the in service versions.
It went on to perform high speed reconnaissance, bomber (it could carry almost as much as a B17), nightfighter, Pathfinder, Intruder, ship attack. Even a ship borne version with folding wings and cut down propellers. It was the ultimate multi role aeroplane.
It was made from sub assemblies from a number of factories, not least the furniture factories of High Wycombe. They were used to using wood and glue and it was a process the Germans couldn’t replicate. Their efforts had a nasty habit of coming apart (the wings of the He162 Salamander jet prototype fell off in front of the desperate Luftwaffe great and good). Oops!
The only issue De Havillands had was in the far east were heat and humidity meant modifications were required to the glues used. The laminate started peeling. Not good.
All in all, the DH98 Mosquito was truly great - as were the people that flew them! It looked the dogs watsits too. [Post edited 13 Feb 18:58]
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| Dresden Destroyed on 19:34 - Feb 13 with 1312 views | Swansea_Blue |
I find it incredible that there isn’t a consensus on whether it was a war crime. Given our modus operandi shifted to one of using fear and terror to break the will of the population, and the non-targeted nature of the attack, the use of incendiaries to deliberately start firestorms to kill as many civilians as possible, and the arguable strategic justification, the case for it being a war crime is quite compelling. Same for Hamburg. But that’s a debate that’ll never be settled, certainly not from today’s viewpoint. |  |
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| Dresden Destroyed on 20:04 - Feb 13 with 1291 views | Kropotkin123 |
I'm not an apologist. I think it was a war crime. In the same way that dropping a nuclear weapon on a city is a war crime - We know we are targeting civilians in both cases. I also understand the decision and think the strategic interest of limiting our losses outweighed the crime. So I'm not looking to vilify those that made the decision.
I think not owning up to this is a bit odd and dressing it up as a myth even more so. I'd rather be honest and approach it with dignity. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:19 - Feb 13 with 1266 views | Churchman |
| Dresden Destroyed on 19:34 - Feb 13 by Swansea_Blue |
I find it incredible that there isn’t a consensus on whether it was a war crime. Given our modus operandi shifted to one of using fear and terror to break the will of the population, and the non-targeted nature of the attack, the use of incendiaries to deliberately start firestorms to kill as many civilians as possible, and the arguable strategic justification, the case for it being a war crime is quite compelling. Same for Hamburg. But that’s a debate that’ll never be settled, certainly not from today’s viewpoint. |
The bombing of Germany was certainly not a war crime.
Internet defines it as ‘murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory. murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas. killing of hostages. torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments.’
Britain engaged in total war - more successfully than Germany. There was little alternative in 1941 but to assault Germany from the air while building an army in the western desert etc. To quote Arthur Harris:
‘The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.’
And so they did. [Post edited 13 Feb 20:25]
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 21:13 - Feb 13 with 1162 views | Swansea_Blue |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:19 - Feb 13 by Churchman |
The bombing of Germany was certainly not a war crime.
Internet defines it as ‘murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory. murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas. killing of hostages. torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments.’
Britain engaged in total war - more successfully than Germany. There was little alternative in 1941 but to assault Germany from the air while building an army in the western desert etc. To quote Arthur Harris:
‘The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.’
And so they did. [Post edited 13 Feb 20:25]
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Historians aren’t so definitive in their assessment of it; there are plenty who argue for and plenty against. I’ve no idea, as I can’t put myself in the mindset of what was needed at the time. Today, the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Dresden would meet the definition of a war crime (the Gaza parallel, for example). But obviously International Humanitarian Law was much more embryonic back then and focussed more on military personnel (treatment of hostages, etc).
Edit - I’m just a bit surprised there isn’t a more settled consensus on it, but not looking to derail the thread. You’re obviously better read on this period than I am. For Dresden I’ve only read the one book (might have been Frederick Taylor’s, but I’m not sure. It’s harrowing material. The descriptions of the carbon stain outlines of people vaporised in the intense heat is the stuff of nightmares). [Post edited 13 Feb 21:36]
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| Dresden Destroyed on 21:18 - Feb 13 with 1152 views | Plums |
Episode 249 of the Battleground podcast is an excellent piece with author Sinclair McKay on the bombing of Dresden. I haven't read his book but after listening to him, I definitely will.
The annual commemoration of the random ringing of the bells in Dresden to replicate the first wave sounds haunting and stirring at the same time. The stories of reconciliation are incredibly touching and have a definite resonance with your final paragraph. |  |
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| Dresden Destroyed on 21:35 - Feb 13 with 1088 views | factual_blue |
| Dresden Destroyed on 14:42 - Feb 13 by Steve_M |
On BSW's correct point that no-one knew how long the war would last in February 1945, have either of you read Ian Kershaw's 'The End? It's an account of why Germany resisted as long a it did, short answer a combination of fanaticism, fear of reprisals from the state and fear of the Russians. It's very good though. |
Sir Ian also shows how the minute the war ended, virtually no Germans had ever been Nazis in the first place. They said things like they'd been forced to be Party members, they'd been hiding Jews or feeding them, they'd helped Allied POWs to escape etc.
Very little of this was, of course true. Although -seeing which way the war was going - the Great Escapers were actively helped by their guards. The POWs didn't need to blackmail guards for travel permits and other papers -the guards happily provided them. |  |
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| Dresden Destroyed on 21:46 - Feb 13 with 1045 views | itfc_bucks |
| Dresden Destroyed on 13:35 - Feb 13 by ThisIsMyUsername |
He sadly passed away last month, but a few months ago I met an RAF Flight Engineer who flew a full tour of duty in Lancasters, including a mission over Dresden during the bombing of the city.
I've also met a Mosquito pilot who is still alive and well, who also did a full tour.
Being part of a Bomber Command crew during the Second World War sounds bloody terrifying. 50% fatality rates speak for themselves. |
I found out shortly after my grandfather's passing that he served in 3Para during the war and his first operational action was during Market Garden. One of a very small number of boys who came home from 3Para.
He knew I had an interest in military history, but not once did he speak of any of it. He left me his journals and records on the provision that they werent to be published and would be given to the Aiborne museum if I ever decided to part with them.
A genuinely, breathtakingly lovely bloke who saw more than anyone ever should. I only wish I'd known while he was alive. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 22:49 - Feb 13 with 985 views | Churchman |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 21:13 - Feb 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Historians aren’t so definitive in their assessment of it; there are plenty who argue for and plenty against. I’ve no idea, as I can’t put myself in the mindset of what was needed at the time. Today, the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Dresden would meet the definition of a war crime (the Gaza parallel, for example). But obviously International Humanitarian Law was much more embryonic back then and focussed more on military personnel (treatment of hostages, etc).
Edit - I’m just a bit surprised there isn’t a more settled consensus on it, but not looking to derail the thread. You’re obviously better read on this period than I am. For Dresden I’ve only read the one book (might have been Frederick Taylor’s, but I’m not sure. It’s harrowing material. The descriptions of the carbon stain outlines of people vaporised in the intense heat is the stuff of nightmares). [Post edited 13 Feb 21:36]
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Apologists and U.K. military haters like Max Hastings love ‘equivalence’ and using words to perpetuate agendas and myths. This is one of them. Another is the Holocaust deniers and people who choose to differentiate between slavery and forced labour. So as far as I’m concerned the definition given in an earlier post covers it.
Even if you apply conventions of today (which is an absurd way to look at it) I doubt it’d be classified as such.
Dresden was destroyed for a variety of reasons. German casualties were the last concern and after six years of horror who can blame the people of the time. I’ve given my reasons why I think the raid should not have taken place and it has nothing to do with ‘war crimes’ and more to do with choices in the pursuit of ending the war fast.
It’s all about intent. Had the nuclear bomb been available a year earlier it would not have been a war crime to drop it because it would have saved 10s of 1000s of lives.
An intent to wipe out peoples on the basis of race, starve millions in Eastern Europe to death (see ‘hunger plan’ were the intention was to kill 20 to 30m people by starvation, the removal of all food from Holland at the end of the war starving to death 18,000 people, shooting of prisoners, torture are war crimes. Starting a war to steal land and resources off other countries Putin style is a war crime. 55 million died thanks to those animals.
To try and drag the RAF under the same umbrella is not something I could ever entertain or understand. | | | |
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