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Sorry, this is going to be a long read! I posted on her previously concerning getting outbid on a property as FTBs, and the pain it had caused. We since found somewhere else theat we really liked (we haven't allowed ourselves to fall in love after our previous experience though!)
We're pretty far down the line with our purchase. Exchange could well be on the horizon soon as the vendor has messaged me to see how we're doing (not confirmed, but I suspect they're ready to plan exchange on their purchase), and we now need to make the decision on whether to go ahead or not.
Things started off nice and smoothly but survey results and local authority search came back at the beginning of last week, and we started to panic. No planning or building regs for a porch rear extension and structural wall removal in the kitchen. I asked our surveyor to pay attention to these, as even before we had received the search results, we had already asked our solicitor to raise enquiries regarding the works because they had filled in that there were no alterations on the TA6! These enquiries were not answered straight away compared to most of the other initial enquiries. This is where we first started to feel a little skittish.Our solicitor stated it probably the case that they didn't get planning/regs and that they were probably going to offer an indemnity, which is not totally unusual.
Survey time - The vendors told our surveyor that the work on the extension (now starting to be referred to as a lean to!) in 2000 and the porch in 2002. There was no date given for the removal of the kitchen wall. The surveyor obviously wouldn't commit too much on the works as he can't see the buried work, but he was otherwise positive about the standard of what he could see. He even stating that the lack of paperwork probably wouldn't put him off if he was purchasing it himself, and commented along the same line as our solicitor, that this is more common than most people think.
We got the local authority search back about a day later, which showed no planning has been applied for for anything and that nothing was showing building regs-wise, since a boiler replacement in 2014, when it was still a council owned property. All this started to raise my Spidey senses, and I decided to go back through paperwork and do some more investigating. I then spotted something else in the TA6 that didn't occur to me, as at the point of recieving the TA6 we'd only had our initial viewing with the EA. We went for a second viewing and the vendor and her partner facilitated this viewing. The TA6 stated she was alone in the property but the partner told us he's been living there with her for 20+ years. Our solicitor said that they'd raise an enquiry for confirmation that all tenants would leave the property at completion but more distrust starting to form!
I started to ponder more and thought, I could possibly believe the extension had been in place since 2000, but the porch looked too modern to be 23 years old. So I then thought I'd take to Google Earth to study when these structures became apparent. The extension appears on Google Earth sometimes around 2017-18 and the porch is seemingly built in 2021! Jeez, distrust level is now defcon 5! After speaking with the surveyor and solicitor they calmed us down and kept pushing the line that this is common and the solicitor didn't seem to be too fussed about the lies, stating that work is "set to structure after 10 years" meaning the authorities are extremely unlikely to chase any retrospective planning/regs. Solicitor said they'd understand if we'd lost trust in the vendor and wanted to pull out but that they didn't feel it added much more risk to us. We started to think that it must just be FTB nervousness kicking in and we should just carry on as we really like the house.
Fast forward to today. Vendor messages to inform their solicitor has replied to all enquiries raised and that they're just waiting on our end. Our solicitor then sent us through the answers they'd been provided with. They' ve claimed again that work was done in 2000 and 2002, and that planning was not required, no answer to building regs sign off. Our solicitor has gone back again asking for evidence that planning/building regs are not required. Not only that , the last straw that's kind of pushed us back into complete distrust and on the verge of pulling the pin again. The vendor has pushed back and refused to even get an indemnity policy to cover their failings.
We also requested our broker to check for rates with our lender this weekend, which are now a bit better, so our broker has said he'll ask the lender to sort this. I have told the vendor this and informed them that it could be a couple of weeks for this to be sorted. That means we have a bit of thinking time at least.
We're really unsure where to go with this now. Our solicitor provided a quote for the indemnity and has asked if we want to buy the cover. It's £115, so nothing in the grand scheme of things but it's more the principle of it than the cost. They fcked up, they lied and now they want us to pay to cover that fck up.
Are we being FTB faries again and do we need to wind our necks in? Or should we run for the hills? As I previously mentioned we really like the property, there hasn't been anything come to market since that is as suitable, and the properties we bid on before this we were priced out of the bidding rather quickly. Head is thinking there are too many reg flags here, but heart is saying the advice so far has been that they're nothing to be too flustered by and that we like the place so binning it off for lies that would likely not effect us too much and a fairly cheap indemnity.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:14 - Jun 16 with 855 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:14 - Jun 16 by BanksterDebtSlave
Just had another go, you were right it is NO!
I think we're leaning into the suggestion we've had from some on here and from others that I've spoken to. Ask for retrospective building regs sign off and indemnity. If the answer is no then we will reduce our offer. We offered what we thought was a fair price (over asking) but this was on the assumption that alterations were done to spec, with sign off. I think it's only fair we reduce that if they are not willing to at least go some way to rectify.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:39 - Jun 16 with 821 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:23 - Jun 16 by tonybied
I think we're leaning into the suggestion we've had from some on here and from others that I've spoken to. Ask for retrospective building regs sign off and indemnity. If the answer is no then we will reduce our offer. We offered what we thought was a fair price (over asking) but this was on the assumption that alterations were done to spec, with sign off. I think it's only fair we reduce that if they are not willing to at least go some way to rectify.
At some point you are going to be a seller with your buyer likely to be a first time buyer.
Ask yourself how you are going to react then, to the type of questions you are raising now.
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:23 - Jun 16 by tonybied
I think we're leaning into the suggestion we've had from some on here and from others that I've spoken to. Ask for retrospective building regs sign off and indemnity. If the answer is no then we will reduce our offer. We offered what we thought was a fair price (over asking) but this was on the assumption that alterations were done to spec, with sign off. I think it's only fair we reduce that if they are not willing to at least go some way to rectify.
That sounds like a reasonable approach.
Just bear in mind, though, that unless you have a large deposit that you can dip into, a £10k reduction in the price won't necessarily translate to £10k in your pocket.
You might still need to find the money to pay for retrospective building regs and, in the worst case scenario, have the works re-done to the correct specification.
I accepted an offer on my house in Feb this year and found a place to move too. Really loved the house, missed out initially but then came back on the market so was feeling really positive.
I had some issues with the EA I was buying from putting on pressure for completion etc and giving contradictory advice from my solicitor and mortgage people which was causing a lot of stress and me running around to get them to talk to each other.
Went on holiday 3 weeks ago, told everyone I would be away for a week and not able to communicate (needed a break from it all). On my return I had an email from my solicitor stating that they’d been contacted out of the blue by a firm higher up the chain stating if I didn’t agree to complete with 9 days then the chain would collapse.
The property had been advertised as no chain, I had it on my paperwork there was no chain but the EA then sent an email to my solicitor telling them that I was aware of the chain, it was in place before I offered and that this was my issue. A few phone calls later and it transpired that they agreed that they hadn’t told me, the buyer was being shifty but willing to break the chain to sell her property to me providing I agreed to complete in 9 days. This was not possible as my ex partner is also buying and her property isn’t available until mid July and I have a lot of stuff of hers in the property we are selling.
A day later, I had a call from my selling estate agent asking me when I’d agreed to the completion date of 9 days as the house at the top of the chain (which i was now been informed had been broken and no longer existed) had been told that I’d agreed to the date and they were just waiting for it in writing from me.
It caused me all kinds of stress and issues so I decided to pull out and look for somewhere to rent so that my sale can go through and I can find somewhere that works for me and my children and I feel comfortable with the situation
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:18 - Jun 17 with 582 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 11:55 - Jun 17 by DecageBruce
I feel your pain.
I accepted an offer on my house in Feb this year and found a place to move too. Really loved the house, missed out initially but then came back on the market so was feeling really positive.
I had some issues with the EA I was buying from putting on pressure for completion etc and giving contradictory advice from my solicitor and mortgage people which was causing a lot of stress and me running around to get them to talk to each other.
Went on holiday 3 weeks ago, told everyone I would be away for a week and not able to communicate (needed a break from it all). On my return I had an email from my solicitor stating that they’d been contacted out of the blue by a firm higher up the chain stating if I didn’t agree to complete with 9 days then the chain would collapse.
The property had been advertised as no chain, I had it on my paperwork there was no chain but the EA then sent an email to my solicitor telling them that I was aware of the chain, it was in place before I offered and that this was my issue. A few phone calls later and it transpired that they agreed that they hadn’t told me, the buyer was being shifty but willing to break the chain to sell her property to me providing I agreed to complete in 9 days. This was not possible as my ex partner is also buying and her property isn’t available until mid July and I have a lot of stuff of hers in the property we are selling.
A day later, I had a call from my selling estate agent asking me when I’d agreed to the completion date of 9 days as the house at the top of the chain (which i was now been informed had been broken and no longer existed) had been told that I’d agreed to the date and they were just waiting for it in writing from me.
It caused me all kinds of stress and issues so I decided to pull out and look for somewhere to rent so that my sale can go through and I can find somewhere that works for me and my children and I feel comfortable with the situation
Sorry to hear that!
One thing is for definite, the property purchasing process is broken on this country and seriously needs looking at! I'm still flabbagasted that a vendor can claim that a new structure was added to the property 23 years ago, and when I point out to the solicitor and the surveyor that this is untrue and it went up 4 years ago, the reaction I get it's basically meh...it happens all the time! That's bonkers to me!
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:23 - Jun 16 by tonybied
I think we're leaning into the suggestion we've had from some on here and from others that I've spoken to. Ask for retrospective building regs sign off and indemnity. If the answer is no then we will reduce our offer. We offered what we thought was a fair price (over asking) but this was on the assumption that alterations were done to spec, with sign off. I think it's only fair we reduce that if they are not willing to at least go some way to rectify.
I am not sure how long it would take to get retrospective building regs sign off, but given my experience with the removal of a wall in a single storey kitchen with a pitched roof, and also the attached leaflet, I wonder if the local authority would sign it off without a structural engineer's report.
Might the alternative be to get the other side to pay for an indemnity and for your surveyor to carry out a structural survey where the wall was removed, if that is something he thinks he could do?
[Post edited 17 Jun 12:26]
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:29 - Jun 17 with 562 views
Just commenting on the planning and building regulations
In respect of the extensions these are almost likely permitted development, hence no planning applications will be found, as quite a lot of works and extensions to houses can be done with no recourse to the local planning authority. Notwithstanding, if permission was needed (depending on size and position) they would be immune from any enforcement action after four years.
On building regulations, again, this sign-off does not need to be done by the local authority as the houseowber could have used an approved contractor. Likewise, if BR was required, after four years no action can be taken.
Hope this helps
From a planner
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:39 - Jun 17 with 546 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:29 - Jun 17 by football
Just commenting on the planning and building regulations
In respect of the extensions these are almost likely permitted development, hence no planning applications will be found, as quite a lot of works and extensions to houses can be done with no recourse to the local planning authority. Notwithstanding, if permission was needed (depending on size and position) they would be immune from any enforcement action after four years.
On building regulations, again, this sign-off does not need to be done by the local authority as the houseowber could have used an approved contractor. Likewise, if BR was required, after four years no action can be taken.
Hope this helps
From a planner
Agreed. I think the concern here is not so much enforcement (which can be covered by indemnity insurance) but by concerns that it may not have been done done well and may lead to problems. Especially the supporting wall seemingly supported with wood rather than an RSJ
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 14:36 - Jun 17 with 487 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:29 - Jun 17 by football
Just commenting on the planning and building regulations
In respect of the extensions these are almost likely permitted development, hence no planning applications will be found, as quite a lot of works and extensions to houses can be done with no recourse to the local planning authority. Notwithstanding, if permission was needed (depending on size and position) they would be immune from any enforcement action after four years.
On building regulations, again, this sign-off does not need to be done by the local authority as the houseowber could have used an approved contractor. Likewise, if BR was required, after four years no action can be taken.
Hope this helps
From a planner
Out of interest, is that the case for the whole of England, or can it vary from authority to authority?
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 14:36 - Jun 17 by Ryorry
Out of interest, is that the case for the whole of England, or can it vary from authority to authority?
Permitted development rights are set out in national policy - if you suffer from insomnia is the Town and County Planning (General Permitted Development)(England) Order 2015.
The only way to vary them is if the local council instigates what are article 4 directions which in effect removes permitted development rights. Some do this in conservation areas ie re porches, painting of houses; some authorities do for Houses of Multiple Occupation where they are an issue but to put these in place they need to demonstrate exceptional circumstances of harm if they are not put in place. They are not common though as the govt wants people to have flexibility and tolerance for what they can do to houses without the bureaucracy.
For the OP - re porches, if its 3sqm or less in footprint, no more than 2m in height and set 2 or more meters back from the back edge of a highway (which means road or public footpath) then it does not require permission. Re the rear extension, this varies but the amount is pretty large
As for enforcement timescales - national as is building control matters.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 15:03 - Jun 17 with 447 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:39 - Jun 17 by redrickstuhaart
Agreed. I think the concern here is not so much enforcement (which can be covered by indemnity insurance) but by concerns that it may not have been done done well and may lead to problems. Especially the supporting wall seemingly supported with wood rather than an RSJ
The only way really to deal with this (if they cannot provide a BC notice or certificate) is to get someone independent and I'd knock some money of the price to cover the cost
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 15:04 - Jun 17 with 444 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 14:56 - Jun 17 by MJallday
this sounds like a deeper problem than "one or two niggle points"
if the owners have not disclosed this stuff, what else have they not disclosed. whats to stop some bright spark reporting you to the local authorties
sounds like theyre just tryign to shift their lack of paperwork / permission onto any poor sod that will then have to deal with it.
id run a mile.
See my post - they could report but seems all the works are outside any enforcement timescales but in all eventuality didnt require permission anyway, hence lack of some (if not all) paperwork
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 16:38 - Jun 17 with 388 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 15:04 - Jun 17 by football
See my post - they could report but seems all the works are outside any enforcement timescales but in all eventuality didnt require permission anyway, hence lack of some (if not all) paperwork
then it entirely depends how risk averse you are.
personally, if i was spending (i assume) a 6 figure amount on something , id like to know it was 100% tip top and everything was explainable. wouldnt you?
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 15:04 - Jun 17 by football
See my post - they could report but seems all the works are outside any enforcement timescales but in all eventuality didnt require permission anyway, hence lack of some (if not all) paperwork
My understanding relating to the building regulations matters is that any work that includes structural alterations, such as the removal of internal structural (load-bearing) walls, will require approval under the building regulations.
As part of the process building control will require structural calculations to have been prepared by a suitably qualified structural engineer and for this information to be submitted as part of the building regulations process. The structural calcs will be checked for compliance and will be referenced within the building regulations approval granted.
During the works, the building control officer will carry out site visits at certain stages through the construction phase and will certainly wish to inspect the installation of the steelwork to ensure the correct sized beam(s) and any required support (structural posts and/or padstones) have been installed correctly. Furthermore, any structural steelwork supporting structure above should be suitably fire-protected. Again, this would be checked by the building control officer during the construction phase.
I don't know the house in question but if the wall(s) removed is, or was, a structurally load-bearing wall and the owner/seller of the property carried out the work without securing approval under the building regulations, then I'm not sure that property would be for me personally.
But we're all different and hopefully the OP will be comfortable when making their final decision. However, as one or two others have said, just a reduction in the offer price for the property might not be adequate financially to repair the property should it be found necessary to do so. Furthermore, I wonder if any insurance taken out on the building by the new owner (the OP - should he/she buy it) would be valid if it was shown it was known the works carried out was done so without building regs approval.
Apologies for long reply.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 08:10 - Jun 18 with 193 views
More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 17:43 - Jun 17 by TVRBlue
My understanding relating to the building regulations matters is that any work that includes structural alterations, such as the removal of internal structural (load-bearing) walls, will require approval under the building regulations.
As part of the process building control will require structural calculations to have been prepared by a suitably qualified structural engineer and for this information to be submitted as part of the building regulations process. The structural calcs will be checked for compliance and will be referenced within the building regulations approval granted.
During the works, the building control officer will carry out site visits at certain stages through the construction phase and will certainly wish to inspect the installation of the steelwork to ensure the correct sized beam(s) and any required support (structural posts and/or padstones) have been installed correctly. Furthermore, any structural steelwork supporting structure above should be suitably fire-protected. Again, this would be checked by the building control officer during the construction phase.
I don't know the house in question but if the wall(s) removed is, or was, a structurally load-bearing wall and the owner/seller of the property carried out the work without securing approval under the building regulations, then I'm not sure that property would be for me personally.
But we're all different and hopefully the OP will be comfortable when making their final decision. However, as one or two others have said, just a reduction in the offer price for the property might not be adequate financially to repair the property should it be found necessary to do so. Furthermore, I wonder if any insurance taken out on the building by the new owner (the OP - should he/she buy it) would be valid if it was shown it was known the works carried out was done so without building regs approval.
Apologies for long reply.
I don’t know how consistent Building Regs are across the country, but I do know some inspectors are more fussy than others.
A few years ago I had my kitchen extended into half of a full length garage plus other work. This obviously needed an RSJ for a load bearing wall. The plans, pages of them, were submitted to Sevenoaks Council. All approved.
They wanted the work inspected at various stages. Fine. The first chap wanted to see the steel, make sure it met regs, fireproofed etc, chatted to the builder, looked again at the plans, all good
Towards the end of the build another dude did the inspecting. He looked at everything in minute detail from alarms, electrics, building materials, drain pipe configurations/angles, fireproofing the doors. He visited a number of times before he signed it off. Beyond fussy. But it was signed off so when it’s sold, the paperwork is all there.
Retrospectively, I know permissions can be granted. Whether they have to dig in and see what the build actually is, I don’t know. What I do know is that in the past they could insist a structure was taken down. I suspect with relaxation of planning laws it’s a bit more do what you like.
However, even if it is the latter, I’d still want work signed off properly and if say planning permission wasn’t necessary, confirmation in writing. Houses cost huge sums of money. You need to not only be sure when you buy, but know you have everything right for when you sell.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 09:34 - Jun 18 with 143 views
For me there is probably sufficient doubt on your part to pull the plug on this. If they are hiding the obvious stuff I would raise questions as to what else is potentially hidden.
There's a fair bit on the market at the moment and your in a great position, I would go searching for a house that your comfortable with and ticks the boxes, not settling for the one that leaves you with questions.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 10:32 - Jun 18 with 79 views
I have no advice to give, but having read through the complete thread (so far) this shows the TWTD forum at its best! Some really helpful, inciteful advice from experts and those that have experienced similar situations. Very interesting too. Well done TWTD "fanbase!" To the OP I hope you make the right decision, whatever that may be, and I guess all I would say to the OP is don't let anyone rush you.
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More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 11:32 - Jun 18 with 37 views
We're in the process of buying our first house - an extended Victorian terrace. We had our level 3 survey completed yesterday and should get the report on Friday.
During the best and final offer process the agent let slip that they had already sold the house at asking price, but reading between the lines, the last buyers either pulled out or asked for a significant reduction after the survey.
This thread has given me quite a few things to look out for that I hadn't considered beyond general condition.
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