| The reality of assisted dying on 14:21 - Jun 20 with 1383 views | football |
I watched this before - a hard watch but a much more dignified death for him and his family than what lay in wait for him |  | |  |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 with 1354 views | tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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| The reality of assisted dying on 14:41 - Jun 20 with 1352 views | Kievthegreat |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:21 - Jun 20 by football |
I watched this before - a hard watch but a much more dignified death for him and his family than what lay in wait for him |
This. He got to pick his terms and was surrounded by family. The article talks a bit about the moments they didn't show as well. His family sitting and talking and reminiscing in those final moments. It offers dignity and compassion.
Plus while I do sympathise with the doctor and the woman who worry about people being pressured into it, this is why we should get the correct level of oversight and protection for vulnerable people. In my mind it's an argument for regulation rather than prohibition. |  | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:10 - Jun 20 with 1254 views | football |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 by tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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Exactly - I have watched both my parents die and neither were pleasant. My mum was blissfully quick after diagnosis (a mere couple of weeks!) but I saw the fear in her eyes every day. Dad took five years and I slowly watched him get weaker and less able to do anything, including go to the toilet. Assisted dying has my full support, if it is what the individual wants and there are proper safeguards in place. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:11 - Jun 20 with 1255 views | Herbivore |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 by tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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Having lost close relatives to terminal illness, being with them and seeing the deterioration in their final weeks is pretty bleak. Very little quality of life, and the last few days when they are not really conscious and can't eat or drink and you're all just waiting for them to go are a horrible experience.
I don't know if people realise, but when you're in those final days, they give you a cocktail of drugs that is designed to keep you "comfortable" or in other words, effectively unconscious and unable to communicate or eat and drink, but still showing occasional signs of discomfort and/or distress. It's then just waiting for the body to give up, which is often not quick. Effectively, we're already euthanising people in their final days, just in a way that drags things out horribly. I'm very in favour of assisted dying, with safeguards in place. |  |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 15:20 - Jun 20 with 1218 views | BloomBlue |
It is but it is a difficult choice.
There will be mistakes, ie people who could have lived longer than 6 months, but we'll never know. There are many stories of people given less than 6 months to live by medical experts, who are still living 2 years later.
Also need to make sure any extra costs incurred with assisted dying isn't funded from reducing the costs spent on palliative. I really don't know the actual costs but if the former is a lot cheaper than the latter, the danger is you reduce palliative costs and start to drive people towards the assisted dying. |  | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:24 - Jun 20 with 1198 views | Nutkins_Return |
You are right if course but at the same time that really is a dignified death. He's brave but also he knows the alternative. I know there are many complexities to the argument but wow I would want that option over a slow painful death. | |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 15:27 - Jun 20 with 1180 views | Kievthegreat |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:20 - Jun 20 by BloomBlue |
It is but it is a difficult choice.
There will be mistakes, ie people who could have lived longer than 6 months, but we'll never know. There are many stories of people given less than 6 months to live by medical experts, who are still living 2 years later.
Also need to make sure any extra costs incurred with assisted dying isn't funded from reducing the costs spent on palliative. I really don't know the actual costs but if the former is a lot cheaper than the latter, the danger is you reduce palliative costs and start to drive people towards the assisted dying. |
I assume this must be a really significant concern for very different reasons in the US and here. In the UK the cost will be borne by the NHS so there is a non-zero risk of people pushing to save money (although I think most doctors would not compromise the care they offer to satisfy a penny pinching exercise).
Meanwhile stateside, is there going to be family pressure to not rack up huge medical bills by going down a palliative route.
Then again that's why it needs multiple doctors to sign off on it. It's still going to be difficult to make sure the I'll are protected from bad faith actors. | | | |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 15:34 - Jun 20 with 1147 views | gsoly |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:20 - Jun 20 by BloomBlue |
It is but it is a difficult choice.
There will be mistakes, ie people who could have lived longer than 6 months, but we'll never know. There are many stories of people given less than 6 months to live by medical experts, who are still living 2 years later.
Also need to make sure any extra costs incurred with assisted dying isn't funded from reducing the costs spent on palliative. I really don't know the actual costs but if the former is a lot cheaper than the latter, the danger is you reduce palliative costs and start to drive people towards the assisted dying. |
I'm not sure this is the right way to look at it. It's not going to be an option open to everyone - far, far from it. And if someone's given six months to live, they're not going to go through this, unless their last few weeks become unbearable, would be my sense?
I also believe that the bill, as currently written, means the pool of people who'll qualify for assisted dying is incredibly small. Sure, it will expand, but I am very much in the camp as outlined above. It allows for a far more dignified exit from this world, reducing strain on family and friends. As a bloke with parents in their early 60s, nursing them through a loss of cognition and coherence to a point where they would be ashamed terrifies me. |  | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:40 - Jun 20 with 1127 views | BloomBlue |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:27 - Jun 20 by Kievthegreat |
I assume this must be a really significant concern for very different reasons in the US and here. In the UK the cost will be borne by the NHS so there is a non-zero risk of people pushing to save money (although I think most doctors would not compromise the care they offer to satisfy a penny pinching exercise).
Meanwhile stateside, is there going to be family pressure to not rack up huge medical bills by going down a palliative route.
Then again that's why it needs multiple doctors to sign off on it. It's still going to be difficult to make sure the I'll are protected from bad faith actors. |
My point was really about the NHS doesn't have a bottomless pit of money. That's why yesterday they announced that Alzheimer's drugs wasn't going to be available on the NHS, because it's too expensive. So the NHS does have cost constraints.
I'm not saying this would happen, there will be rules, but it is a danger that palliative care could be reduced if assisted dying is ultimately cheaper. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 16:14 - Jun 20 with 1081 views | ronnyd |
| The reality of assisted dying on 15:11 - Jun 20 by Herbivore |
Having lost close relatives to terminal illness, being with them and seeing the deterioration in their final weeks is pretty bleak. Very little quality of life, and the last few days when they are not really conscious and can't eat or drink and you're all just waiting for them to go are a horrible experience.
I don't know if people realise, but when you're in those final days, they give you a cocktail of drugs that is designed to keep you "comfortable" or in other words, effectively unconscious and unable to communicate or eat and drink, but still showing occasional signs of discomfort and/or distress. It's then just waiting for the body to give up, which is often not quick. Effectively, we're already euthanising people in their final days, just in a way that drags things out horribly. I'm very in favour of assisted dying, with safeguards in place. |
Watched my brother die in exactly the same way in March. !00% agree in the assisted dying bill. I'd take like a shot. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 17:01 - Jun 20 with 1015 views | Linners |
For the first time in years I'm proud of the way our MPs are discussing and debating this hugely important and sensitive issue. I'm definitely in favour for all the reasons people mention, but the risks are much more real than I appreciated. |  | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 17:10 - Jun 20 with 1000 views | homer_123 |
| The reality of assisted dying on 17:01 - Jun 20 by Linners |
For the first time in years I'm proud of the way our MPs are discussing and debating this hugely important and sensitive issue. I'm definitely in favour for all the reasons people mention, but the risks are much more real than I appreciated. |
It is entirely possible to discuss and debate important, sensitive and emotive subjects without resorting to insults, accusations, straw manning etc.
You're right to call it out Linners. |  |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 19:01 - Jun 20 with 841 views | Churchman |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 by tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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Agree 100%. I’m repeating what I’ve said before, but I make no apologies for it. My father died in St Elizabeth’s 18 moths ago, my mother in Asterbury Care Home in 2018. To say neither was easy was the understatement of the year. Everyone did their best.
I cannot speak too highly of the people that looked after both of them. Woefully underpaid and under supported, they were simply amazing.
However, the suffering was as you describe in your first paragraph. When I saw my mum for the last time she was in such pain, as I gently held what was left of her, if I could have ended her suffering there and then I would have done it.
My dad was a similar story. He died piece by piece. Death by bacon slicer physically and mentally. It was cruel. It was not life, it was painful existence. I was with him when he died. I’m ashamed to say the primary emotion was relief and gladness he was out of it.
I’ve been with three of the cats when we said goodbye to them at the end of their time. You know when the time is right and it was a privilege to do that for them.
I’m fully in favour of assisting dying. I get the pitfalls, risks and difficulties of it. Of course it needs safeguards, not least for the people that do the work.
But I believe in certain instances we can do better than leaving people to rot away painfully and miserably under the excuse of ‘sanctity of life’ or ‘can’t do’ because what I saw is no life. People at the end of their lives deserve better than that. [Post edited 20 Jun 19:03]
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| The reality of assisted dying on 19:42 - Jun 20 with 777 views | cinnamonITFC |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 by tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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I’m so sorry about your step-Father and Grandfather experience. That must’ve been horrible for them and for you all.
Can I take issue with the ‘correct safeguarding’ comment. It what I hear a lot of people say. It feels like a word people just throw about, so that they can ignore their internal anxieties of ‘what if this isn’t safe’. They don’t actually take time to consider what safeguards would actually be ‘sufficient’.
This bill is simply not adequate in its safeguards - that’s been made quite clear by experts in the field eg Royal College of Psychiatrists, Royal College of Physicians, Palliative Care organisations.
The general trend appears to be that the more people look into the actual details (and not just whether they would want the option for themselves or their loved ones), the more serious problems come up that are not being addressed.
As a medic myself, I could speak for hours on this - I’m incredibly concerned about this bill. (Despite being sympathetic to the concept of assisted dying). But this is probably not the place. [Post edited 20 Jun 19:44]
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| The reality of assisted dying on 20:34 - Jun 20 with 717 views | Churchman |
| The reality of assisted dying on 19:42 - Jun 20 by cinnamonITFC |
I’m so sorry about your step-Father and Grandfather experience. That must’ve been horrible for them and for you all.
Can I take issue with the ‘correct safeguarding’ comment. It what I hear a lot of people say. It feels like a word people just throw about, so that they can ignore their internal anxieties of ‘what if this isn’t safe’. They don’t actually take time to consider what safeguards would actually be ‘sufficient’.
This bill is simply not adequate in its safeguards - that’s been made quite clear by experts in the field eg Royal College of Psychiatrists, Royal College of Physicians, Palliative Care organisations.
The general trend appears to be that the more people look into the actual details (and not just whether they would want the option for themselves or their loved ones), the more serious problems come up that are not being addressed.
As a medic myself, I could speak for hours on this - I’m incredibly concerned about this bill. (Despite being sympathetic to the concept of assisted dying). But this is probably not the place. [Post edited 20 Jun 19:44]
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Yes, it’s easy to ignore the difficulties of this in terms of words like safeguards and sufficient.
It’s also easy to forget about it, shut it away, carry on as we are, hope it’s not something you have to face and hope it’s like you see in Victorian paintings. You know, round the bedside, fevered mopped brow, physician looking on, kids at the foot of the bed, picture of Jesus on the wall. But it’s just not like that. Anyone who has spent time visiting a hospice or seen death in its various forms will tell you that.
I freely confess I don’t have the answers. Easiest solution is to actually leave things as they are. Cutting to the chase that way nobody stands the risk of being sued, greedy people wanting relations dead for the money - sorted, people working in the medical profession don’t have to make a decision. People at the end of life are going anyway so what’s the problem with a few more days, weeks, months? Well I have a problem with that. It’s not good enough and not right.
Sometimes the easiest solutions are not the correct ones. Sometimes it’s obvious there’s nothing left beyond a struggling, miserable, agony filled death. Sometimes people have just had enough. They want to go and should have the right to make that decision.
The principle of assisted dying is in my view right. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 21:39 - Jun 20 with 659 views | Swansea_Blue |
Only just squeaked through, but I think that’s a welcome vote. I’m not entirely sure about it, but it seems cruel to deny people the choice. Most Tories voted against (as it wasn’t whipped that surprised me, as I thought they favoured personal choice/responsibility), Labour split with many against, but was passed 313/291. |  |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 07:12 - Jun 21 with 494 views | bluelagos |
| The reality of assisted dying on 21:39 - Jun 20 by Swansea_Blue |
Only just squeaked through, but I think that’s a welcome vote. I’m not entirely sure about it, but it seems cruel to deny people the choice. Most Tories voted against (as it wasn’t whipped that surprised me, as I thought they favoured personal choice/responsibility), Labour split with many against, but was passed 313/291. |
Same as with gay marriage which Tory Mps failed to support too, only carried with opposition MP support.
Whilst recognising people have genuine concerns, I think the benefits far outweigh the risks of coercion (which exist now anyway)
For those that oppose assisted dieing on principle there is a simple point that it is a choice and you don't have to do it if you don't wish to. Much like gay marriage is. [Post edited 21 Jun 7:13]
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| The reality of assisted dying on 09:16 - Jun 21 with 412 views | ross1999 |
I'm currently going through this at the moment with my mum. I just watched the clip thinking it was such a peaceful way to go. 27 days ago my mum had a massive seizure caused by a brain tumour. Since then she has been unable to talk, unable to move and unable to function. She is just being made 'comfortable'. She always said she just wants it to be quick (it was in her end of life care pack) when she goes. I can't imagine the frustration she is experiencing. For me personally, as much as it hurts to say I welcome this bill. Seeing the toil it is taking on everyone else around is heartbreaking and I know something to help speed this process up would be exactly what she would have wanted.
I understand the counter arguments and they are legitimate as well as the complexities. Specific measures would need to be in place to protect the vulnerable and in the case of my mum how could she communicate that this is now what she would like.
I do find it interesting that such a thing to decide can be politicised by Kemi Badenoch encouraging her party to vote against. This is a very personal choice and not sure why being the right or left would have any bearing on their decision. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 10:24 - Jun 21 with 364 views | Churchman |
| The reality of assisted dying on 09:16 - Jun 21 by ross1999 |
I'm currently going through this at the moment with my mum. I just watched the clip thinking it was such a peaceful way to go. 27 days ago my mum had a massive seizure caused by a brain tumour. Since then she has been unable to talk, unable to move and unable to function. She is just being made 'comfortable'. She always said she just wants it to be quick (it was in her end of life care pack) when she goes. I can't imagine the frustration she is experiencing. For me personally, as much as it hurts to say I welcome this bill. Seeing the toil it is taking on everyone else around is heartbreaking and I know something to help speed this process up would be exactly what she would have wanted.
I understand the counter arguments and they are legitimate as well as the complexities. Specific measures would need to be in place to protect the vulnerable and in the case of my mum how could she communicate that this is now what she would like.
I do find it interesting that such a thing to decide can be politicised by Kemi Badenoch encouraging her party to vote against. This is a very personal choice and not sure why being the right or left would have any bearing on their decision. |
Thank you for posting this at what is such a tough time for your mum, you and those who love her.
Those who have been through this understand the toll it takes. Just make sure you try and look after yourself and those close to you as best you can.
I agree re politicisation. I’ve not noticed regarding Badenoch this. That’s awful. If an MP is not able to seek the views of their constituents, which is pretty impossible on something like this, they should be allowed to vote on what they think is right without interference.
Take care. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 10:29 - Jun 21 with 362 views | Ryorry |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 by tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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Re your last paragraph - because dogs don’t leave vast sums of money to relatives and friends in their Wills.
As I’ve said before, unscrupulous doctors “signed off” someone close to me who was depressed following bereavement, not terminally ill and not in great pain - probably for ££, I’ll never know.
I was asked to accompany said elderly person abroad to assist their aim without which the clinic would have refused them, which raised massive inner conflict and turmoil - yes it was their life and right to choose, but no, in those circumstances I could not agree. Luckily my passport was out of date so I had that excuse. In the end they found a volunteer from a charity to accompany them instead, so succeeded.
Decisions should only be made on a case by individual case basis, and only then if there are independent reviews by external legal representative/s. |  |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 10:36 - Jun 21 with 346 views | mellowblue |
| The reality of assisted dying on 14:39 - Jun 20 by tonybied |
Watching a loved one being slowly decimated before your very eyes, and then starving to death once there are nil by mouth in a hospital bed, or because they are too sick or feeble to eat is a much harder watch. Take it from me, after watching my step father, and then my grandad go that way in the last 2 years.
With the correct safeguarding, assisted dying has my full support. If we can decide when our beloved dog is in too much pain and deserves a dignified, pain free end, why can't we do the same, humane thing for, you know, humans! [Post edited 20 Jun 14:51]
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been in the same position with my parents. I agree with you. I don't think for one moment they would have gone down that road themselves, but to have it as an option for those that might want too is fine in my opinion. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 10:37 - Jun 21 with 344 views | Herbivore |
| The reality of assisted dying on 09:16 - Jun 21 by ross1999 |
I'm currently going through this at the moment with my mum. I just watched the clip thinking it was such a peaceful way to go. 27 days ago my mum had a massive seizure caused by a brain tumour. Since then she has been unable to talk, unable to move and unable to function. She is just being made 'comfortable'. She always said she just wants it to be quick (it was in her end of life care pack) when she goes. I can't imagine the frustration she is experiencing. For me personally, as much as it hurts to say I welcome this bill. Seeing the toil it is taking on everyone else around is heartbreaking and I know something to help speed this process up would be exactly what she would have wanted.
I understand the counter arguments and they are legitimate as well as the complexities. Specific measures would need to be in place to protect the vulnerable and in the case of my mum how could she communicate that this is now what she would like.
I do find it interesting that such a thing to decide can be politicised by Kemi Badenoch encouraging her party to vote against. This is a very personal choice and not sure why being the right or left would have any bearing on their decision. |
Sorry to hear about your mum, that's a really tough thing to be going through. Thank you for sharing your experience, not easy to do when you're in the middle of living it. | |
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| The reality of assisted dying on 10:45 - Jun 21 with 316 views | mellowblue |
| The reality of assisted dying on 07:12 - Jun 21 by bluelagos |
Same as with gay marriage which Tory Mps failed to support too, only carried with opposition MP support.
Whilst recognising people have genuine concerns, I think the benefits far outweigh the risks of coercion (which exist now anyway)
For those that oppose assisted dieing on principle there is a simple point that it is a choice and you don't have to do it if you don't wish to. Much like gay marriage is. [Post edited 21 Jun 7:13]
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The Conservatives definitely have traditionalist tendencies, it is the nature of the party. Whereas the left has always been more radical and socially go forward. Both values provide a balance, which brings views pro and con and is not a bad thing. That is one of the beauties of the house, it brings forward arguments even in subjects that many broadly agree with so that things can be rationalized and not rushed into quick decision-making. | | | |
| The reality of assisted dying on 10:49 - Jun 21 with 312 views | Bluecoin |
I'm not sure I have enough faith in our authorities and institutions to always make the right decisions, and then not cover it all up. I just don't trust them to get it right 100% of the time. Similar argument against capital punishment.
Amazingly, I'm with Diane Abbott on this one. Yes in principle. |  | | |
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