| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... 20:01 - Jun 20 with 7130 views | Zx1988 |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn81g4e0nlyo
The sort of thing that even the Tories would probably think twice about. How the hell is throwing some paint at a stationary plane an act of terrorism?!
Kill thousands of civilians in a genocide, however... [Post edited 20 Jun 20:02]
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:19 - Jun 22 with 975 views | J2BLUE |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 11:04 - Jun 22 by StokieBlue |
That's a fair point, whilst they don't absolutely need to refuel with their 1400km range they do if they want to loiter in the area. I still contend though that in reality they don't really need to engage, it's a game the Russian's play and one that they enjoying doing to us.
Why have you change the context of the evacuation flights from the ME?
I think it's awful because I don't agree with a policy of shooting protestors. At the very least a non-lethal method should be used. I also don't think this is terrorism, it's a criminal protest as others have pointed out. I am also annoyed at some of your other opinions about ongoing issues which possibly colours my judgement.
The real issue you should be angry about here is how unarmed and inexperienced protestors managed to gain access to a military base. If that was someone who actually had knowledge and wanted to do harm then it would have been very dangerous.
I've already said it was a poor target for protest and not one I would have recommended but you should be directing much more ire and criticism towards the military security at our bases.
SB [Post edited 22 Jun 11:05]
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These groups always proudly claim 'credit' for the protest and then seem shocked that there are consequences.
We only know they didn't want to do anyone physical harm because we have hindsight. At the time the people there would not have known. Surely they have to assume any unlawful access is hostile? This would have likely gone very differently at a US base. They really would have no one to blame bit themselves if they were shot. |  |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:54 - Jun 22 with 920 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:19 - Jun 22 by J2BLUE |
These groups always proudly claim 'credit' for the protest and then seem shocked that there are consequences.
We only know they didn't want to do anyone physical harm because we have hindsight. At the time the people there would not have known. Surely they have to assume any unlawful access is hostile? This would have likely gone very differently at a US base. They really would have no one to blame bit themselves if they were shot. |
As has been pointed out, the correct response would be a challenge from someone who is clearly armed and a response according to the reaction to that challenge. The biggest issue is that no challenge was made which suggests a distinct lack of effective security.
Despite learning some of the impact of the actions, I still contend this is criminal damage rather than terrorism. If it can be proven there was intent to endanger life then that is clearly more serious but it looks like there was no attempt to hide the damage caused.
I agree the US are far more trigger happy. I am glad our security forces are not but would like to have more confidence that important assets are better secured. |  |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:20 - Jun 22 with 872 views | redrickstuhaart |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:54 - Jun 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
As has been pointed out, the correct response would be a challenge from someone who is clearly armed and a response according to the reaction to that challenge. The biggest issue is that no challenge was made which suggests a distinct lack of effective security.
Despite learning some of the impact of the actions, I still contend this is criminal damage rather than terrorism. If it can be proven there was intent to endanger life then that is clearly more serious but it looks like there was no attempt to hide the damage caused.
I agree the US are far more trigger happy. I am glad our security forces are not but would like to have more confidence that important assets are better secured. |
Its aim is not to cause terror amongst society. Its not terrorism. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:23 - Jun 22 with 865 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:20 - Jun 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Its aim is not to cause terror amongst society. Its not terrorism. |
Neither does it fit the OED definition:
"the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims:" | |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:27 - Jun 22 with 861 views | NthQldITFC |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 11:16 - Jun 22 by mellowblue |
Don't know if you saw the photo but security can not have been taken too seriously as there was a section of 6 foot wooden fencing any one could shin over. Even Stansted would be more secure. |
Ooh! Parking! Now there's an idea. Which grounds is in near? |  |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:28 - Jun 22 with 859 views | Churchman |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:54 - Jun 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
As has been pointed out, the correct response would be a challenge from someone who is clearly armed and a response according to the reaction to that challenge. The biggest issue is that no challenge was made which suggests a distinct lack of effective security.
Despite learning some of the impact of the actions, I still contend this is criminal damage rather than terrorism. If it can be proven there was intent to endanger life then that is clearly more serious but it looks like there was no attempt to hide the damage caused.
I agree the US are far more trigger happy. I am glad our security forces are not but would like to have more confidence that important assets are better secured. |
There was an intent to endanger life. They damaged an aeroplane with paint and crowbars. If it comes down because a protestor damaged something that isn’t picked up when the aeroplane is fixed, that’s on the protestors as much as the maintenance crews.
It’s the same as when those individuals who climbed the Dartford bridge caused miles of delays, if somebody died in an ambulance in the queues, that sits with the protestors. You have to take accountability for your actions.
Where I agree is the lack of effective security. I guess we will never know why. Cuts? Incompetence? But as you rightly say, this is a big issue.
Military bases are not public places. The clue is in the name. As long as people know up front they could be killed venturing into an area they are not allowed, they’ve had their warning. A security person will not necessarily know if somebody is a muppet with a moped or a terrorist/enemy. Why should they put themselves at any risk if they perceive it?
Tbh I’m staggered that we are now going to have to defend what’s left of our military against our own people. What a world we live in. Instead of terrorists which is wrong terminology, what about the term ‘traitors’? Ok, OTT, but they’d probably have been hanged if they’d have done that in WW2. |  | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:34 - Jun 22 with 842 views | redrickstuhaart |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:28 - Jun 22 by Churchman |
There was an intent to endanger life. They damaged an aeroplane with paint and crowbars. If it comes down because a protestor damaged something that isn’t picked up when the aeroplane is fixed, that’s on the protestors as much as the maintenance crews.
It’s the same as when those individuals who climbed the Dartford bridge caused miles of delays, if somebody died in an ambulance in the queues, that sits with the protestors. You have to take accountability for your actions.
Where I agree is the lack of effective security. I guess we will never know why. Cuts? Incompetence? But as you rightly say, this is a big issue.
Military bases are not public places. The clue is in the name. As long as people know up front they could be killed venturing into an area they are not allowed, they’ve had their warning. A security person will not necessarily know if somebody is a muppet with a moped or a terrorist/enemy. Why should they put themselves at any risk if they perceive it?
Tbh I’m staggered that we are now going to have to defend what’s left of our military against our own people. What a world we live in. Instead of terrorists which is wrong terminology, what about the term ‘traitors’? Ok, OTT, but they’d probably have been hanged if they’d have done that in WW2. |
The intent was clearly not to cause harm to people. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 16:16 - Jun 22 with 782 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:19 - Jun 22 by J2BLUE |
These groups always proudly claim 'credit' for the protest and then seem shocked that there are consequences.
We only know they didn't want to do anyone physical harm because we have hindsight. At the time the people there would not have known. Surely they have to assume any unlawful access is hostile? This would have likely gone very differently at a US base. They really would have no one to blame bit themselves if they were shot. |
Of course US airbases are properly funded, unlike ours. |  | | |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 16:19 - Jun 22 with 781 views | Churchman |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:34 - Jun 22 by redrickstuhaart |
The intent was clearly not to cause harm to people. |
What is the difference between that and damaging a railway line or sticking chemicals down the engine of a bus and battering unknown parts of it with a crowbar? Apart from the danger to the crew of the aeroplane is potentially terminal.
Sorry, I know I’m a bit ‘binary’ on stuff like this and sometimes OTT. But aircraft are not to be messed about with. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 16:47 - Jun 22 with 753 views | itfcjoe |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:28 - Jun 22 by Churchman |
There was an intent to endanger life. They damaged an aeroplane with paint and crowbars. If it comes down because a protestor damaged something that isn’t picked up when the aeroplane is fixed, that’s on the protestors as much as the maintenance crews.
It’s the same as when those individuals who climbed the Dartford bridge caused miles of delays, if somebody died in an ambulance in the queues, that sits with the protestors. You have to take accountability for your actions.
Where I agree is the lack of effective security. I guess we will never know why. Cuts? Incompetence? But as you rightly say, this is a big issue.
Military bases are not public places. The clue is in the name. As long as people know up front they could be killed venturing into an area they are not allowed, they’ve had their warning. A security person will not necessarily know if somebody is a muppet with a moped or a terrorist/enemy. Why should they put themselves at any risk if they perceive it?
Tbh I’m staggered that we are now going to have to defend what’s left of our military against our own people. What a world we live in. Instead of terrorists which is wrong terminology, what about the term ‘traitors’? Ok, OTT, but they’d probably have been hanged if they’d have done that in WW2. |
I don’t think traitors is OTT, we are beginning to get on a war footing and these people are hurting our efforts |  |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 16:58 - Jun 22 with 731 views | flykickingbybgunn |
I just feel sorry for the poor officer left in charge of the inadequately protected airfield.
Not their fault. Look to higher ups and the ones with their hands on the purse strings for the faults.
This is not terrorism. This is stupid people making a bad mistake. Lock 'em up to discourage others. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 17:41 - Jun 22 with 674 views | Nutkins_Return |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:34 - Jun 22 by redrickstuhaart |
The intent was clearly not to cause harm to people. |
Not a primary intent I imagine but they have endangered lives. Why the hell did they not simply spray a message on the plane. They have deliberately sabotaged planes engines. That isn't a light protest. That puts lives at risk. If course it's been identified and efforts will be made to fully fix it. But deliberately damaging an aircraft compromises it. [Post edited 22 Jun 17:49]
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 17:50 - Jun 22 with 646 views | positivity |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:28 - Jun 22 by Churchman |
There was an intent to endanger life. They damaged an aeroplane with paint and crowbars. If it comes down because a protestor damaged something that isn’t picked up when the aeroplane is fixed, that’s on the protestors as much as the maintenance crews.
It’s the same as when those individuals who climbed the Dartford bridge caused miles of delays, if somebody died in an ambulance in the queues, that sits with the protestors. You have to take accountability for your actions.
Where I agree is the lack of effective security. I guess we will never know why. Cuts? Incompetence? But as you rightly say, this is a big issue.
Military bases are not public places. The clue is in the name. As long as people know up front they could be killed venturing into an area they are not allowed, they’ve had their warning. A security person will not necessarily know if somebody is a muppet with a moped or a terrorist/enemy. Why should they put themselves at any risk if they perceive it?
Tbh I’m staggered that we are now going to have to defend what’s left of our military against our own people. What a world we live in. Instead of terrorists which is wrong terminology, what about the term ‘traitors’? Ok, OTT, but they’d probably have been hanged if they’d have done that in WW2. |
leaving aside the rights and wrongs of this type of protest, they may've done the country a huge favour by pointing out the security flaws.
a more malign actor would've done much more than paint a plane, maybe this will prevent that happening | |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 17:52 - Jun 22 with 647 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:54 - Jun 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
As has been pointed out, the correct response would be a challenge from someone who is clearly armed and a response according to the reaction to that challenge. The biggest issue is that no challenge was made which suggests a distinct lack of effective security.
Despite learning some of the impact of the actions, I still contend this is criminal damage rather than terrorism. If it can be proven there was intent to endanger life then that is clearly more serious but it looks like there was no attempt to hide the damage caused.
I agree the US are far more trigger happy. I am glad our security forces are not but would like to have more confidence that important assets are better secured. |
I take a slightly middle ground approach.
It is deliberate sabotage of a strategic military asset.
Had they simply painted "Free Gaza" or similar on the runway then it would be simple Criminal damage, and most people would now be saying that a) that would fall within the bounds of reasonable (though illegal) non-violent resistance and b) be grateful that such a shocking security failing had been pinpointed so that it could be rectified.
But this was a calculated action, designed to sabotage a strategic asset and take it out of use. Their subsequent statements have celebrated this fact.
So those involved need to be prepared for the punishment to reflect that intent and result.
That doesn't meet my understanding of what terrorism is, but it isn't simple "Criminal Damage". Is deliberate sabotage of UK military strategic equipment, and therefore undermining the UK's ability to defend itself, Treason?
Given that Hamas are a proscribed organisation, and that this action may be interpreted as "aiding and giving comfort to" Hamas "in this realm", and given that the target was a plane of "His Majesty's Royal Air Force", the question surely arises, doesn't it?
I would be interested in the thoughts of any legal minds on this.
Here is an article discussing the problems with the (still largely ancient) Law around Treason in the UK, and the reasons why those proposing reform haven't succeeded:
https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/treason-law-reform-and-the-lord-haw-haw-case-
You can largely ignore the Lord Haw-Haw stuff, other than to note that there is precedent for the UK establishment bending this law to fit something that it thought looked like Treason. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:10 - Jun 22 with 593 views | baxterbasics |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 17:50 - Jun 22 by positivity |
leaving aside the rights and wrongs of this type of protest, they may've done the country a huge favour by pointing out the security flaws.
a more malign actor would've done much more than paint a plane, maybe this will prevent that happening |
This might also draw to the attention of actual terrorists just how easy it is to get close and do damage! |  |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:16 - Jun 22 with 575 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:19 - Jun 22 by J2BLUE |
These groups always proudly claim 'credit' for the protest and then seem shocked that there are consequences.
We only know they didn't want to do anyone physical harm because we have hindsight. At the time the people there would not have known. Surely they have to assume any unlawful access is hostile? This would have likely gone very differently at a US base. They really would have no one to blame bit themselves if they were shot. |
How many cases of genuine protesters attacking people are you aware of? I can’t recall any (low bar, my memory is sh*t). They know the likely consequences too - they’re not dumb (far from often, as they recognise the idiocy of our current actions).
Ah maybe PETA now I think about it. They could be pretty aggressive. Most modern ones just seem to tie themselves to stuff. |  |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:59 - Jun 22 with 520 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:16 - Jun 22 by Swansea_Blue |
How many cases of genuine protesters attacking people are you aware of? I can’t recall any (low bar, my memory is sh*t). They know the likely consequences too - they’re not dumb (far from often, as they recognise the idiocy of our current actions).
Ah maybe PETA now I think about it. They could be pretty aggressive. Most modern ones just seem to tie themselves to stuff. |
If a 19 year old RAF Regiment guard on duty at Brize Norton airbase sees two camouflaged adults approach a refueling tanker plane at speed on a scooter at night, a couple of weeks after Ukraine destroyed many Russian strategic aeroplanes at their bases, during a period in which Putin has promised to unleash "chaos and disruption" on the UK, would you think it is reasonable for them to assume:
a) "This is a major security breach which needs to be neutralised, and there is a possibility that they are armed."
Or
b) "It's probably genuine protesters and how many cases of genuine protesters attacking people and I aware of? I can probably go easy on them."
Attacking RAF planes on an airbase in the current climate is an incredibly stupid thing for anyone to do with the assumption that they would be safe to do so. If they were willing to be "martyrs" (literally) then that's different, but if they genuinely thought the same rules apply as to somebody throwing paint at a Bank AGM, and they would just get frogmarched off the premises while they shouted slogans, then they are incredibly stupid. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 22:02 - Jun 22 with 480 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:10 - Jun 22 by baxterbasics |
This might also draw to the attention of actual terrorists just how easy it is to get close and do damage! |
Exactly, Russia is currently engaged in sabotage of European infrastructure, and Iran has had assets entering the UK. In that context, the protesters are monumentally stupid putting themselves in such danger, and the MoD also looks incredibly incompetent. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 08:26 - Jun 23 with 365 views | positivity |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:10 - Jun 22 by baxterbasics |
This might also draw to the attention of actual terrorists just how easy it is to get close and do damage! |
possibly, but they can't say they weren't warned! | |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 13:53 - Jun 23 with 263 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 20:59 - Jun 22 by ArnoldMoorhen |
If a 19 year old RAF Regiment guard on duty at Brize Norton airbase sees two camouflaged adults approach a refueling tanker plane at speed on a scooter at night, a couple of weeks after Ukraine destroyed many Russian strategic aeroplanes at their bases, during a period in which Putin has promised to unleash "chaos and disruption" on the UK, would you think it is reasonable for them to assume:
a) "This is a major security breach which needs to be neutralised, and there is a possibility that they are armed."
Or
b) "It's probably genuine protesters and how many cases of genuine protesters attacking people and I aware of? I can probably go easy on them."
Attacking RAF planes on an airbase in the current climate is an incredibly stupid thing for anyone to do with the assumption that they would be safe to do so. If they were willing to be "martyrs" (literally) then that's different, but if they genuinely thought the same rules apply as to somebody throwing paint at a Bank AGM, and they would just get frogmarched off the premises while they shouted slogans, then they are incredibly stupid. |
That misses the point. Yes, they’re committing crimes and yes there will be consequences, but it remains that this group is non-violent. It’s just been confirmed that the group will be classed as a terrorist organisation at the end of this month.
That a non-violent protest group should be proscribed as a terrorist organisation should worry everyone. It’s a step closer to criminalising protest full stop. Even if people don’t agree with their cause or methods, maybe next time the government will clamp down on dissent on a cause you do believe in. It’s sinister as feck, imho. | |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 13:55 - Jun 23 with 259 views | baxterbasics |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 13:53 - Jun 23 by Swansea_Blue |
That misses the point. Yes, they’re committing crimes and yes there will be consequences, but it remains that this group is non-violent. It’s just been confirmed that the group will be classed as a terrorist organisation at the end of this month.
That a non-violent protest group should be proscribed as a terrorist organisation should worry everyone. It’s a step closer to criminalising protest full stop. Even if people don’t agree with their cause or methods, maybe next time the government will clamp down on dissent on a cause you do believe in. It’s sinister as feck, imho. |
This was not a non-violent action. Destruction of property or equipment is still violence, doesn't have to be against a person. | |
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| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:21 - Jun 23 with 235 views | bluejacko |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 13:53 - Jun 23 by Swansea_Blue |
That misses the point. Yes, they’re committing crimes and yes there will be consequences, but it remains that this group is non-violent. It’s just been confirmed that the group will be classed as a terrorist organisation at the end of this month.
That a non-violent protest group should be proscribed as a terrorist organisation should worry everyone. It’s a step closer to criminalising protest full stop. Even if people don’t agree with their cause or methods, maybe next time the government will clamp down on dissent on a cause you do believe in. It’s sinister as feck, imho. |
With the scenes in London today doesn’t look like a peaceful group to me! | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:38 - Jun 23 with 210 views | Churchman |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:21 - Jun 23 by bluejacko |
With the scenes in London today doesn’t look like a peaceful group to me! |
Why are they protesting here in a small country with zero influence in the world, a piddling military that is incapable of defending its assets against a couple of mugs on mopeds? Shouldn’t they be taking their grievances directly to Israel? Start damaging Israeli jets and spray painting Netanyahu’s patio or something?
Anyway, a peaceful group would not threaten the lives of service personnel and damage stuff that’s there to protect us. They’d have sprayed the runway or a building or something. | | | |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 15:44 - Jun 23 with 164 views | BloomBlue |
| If you support Palestine, you're a terrorist... on 14:21 - Jun 23 by bluejacko |
With the scenes in London today doesn’t look like a peaceful group to me! |
On a Monday?
Monday a working day? |  | | |
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