| Double standards? on 11:04 - Sep 5 with 1780 views | bsw72 |
It's about optics though - if you are in a position of power and authority you are held to higher standards - and I dare say an element of misogyny thrown in.
I like Angela Rayner, but she should have fully considered if there was the slightest risk around the tax implications of the house purchase to err on the side of caution - it was very naive.
As for Farage - everyone just shrugs as his behaviour is expected - and his supporters actually applaud his behaviour while criticising others for similar.
The whole thing with politics, social media, lies and propaganda today really concerns me. |  | |  |
| Double standards? on 11:14 - Sep 5 with 1712 views | djgooder |
| Double standards? on 11:04 - Sep 5 by bsw72 |
It's about optics though - if you are in a position of power and authority you are held to higher standards - and I dare say an element of misogyny thrown in.
I like Angela Rayner, but she should have fully considered if there was the slightest risk around the tax implications of the house purchase to err on the side of caution - it was very naive.
As for Farage - everyone just shrugs as his behaviour is expected - and his supporters actually applaud his behaviour while criticising others for similar.
The whole thing with politics, social media, lies and propaganda today really concerns me. |
Additionally she made such a fuss about it in opposition, and rightly so, but she doesn’t seem able to
Live by the standards she has set herself. Therefore, what does she actually believe? Can we trust anything she says or has said? Is it just her climbing the greasy pole, saying what people expect her to say? That is why she is no longer credible.
The comparison to Farage , in my one at least, is that I don’t expect him to do the right thing. And he has tried to be clever about it as your expect. So less of a topic as it is what everyone assumes. I think people hoped for better from Rayner. |  | | |
| Double standards? on 11:53 - Sep 5 with 1590 views | Vaughan8 |
He only avoids some tax if he never takes any money out the business.
Whether you like it, this is standard practice. People put property into companies now as you can claim the whole interest amount against rental income.
The situations are totally different.
Good try though. |  | | |
| Double standards? on 11:56 - Sep 5 with 1547 views | textbackup |
Simple question… why can’t they ALL just play by the rules that we do? |  |
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| Double standards? on 12:09 - Sep 5 with 1464 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’d like to have a Deputy PM who holds themselves to higher standards than Farage though?
Not sure it’s really surprising one is more covered in the press. One is a populists banker who’s (fortunately at the moment) not near power. One is supposedly a working class socialist who champions taxing the wealthy fairly and clamping down on tax avoidance. | | | |
| Double standards? on 12:14 - Sep 5 with 1408 views | DJR |
Isn't this what a lot of self-employed people do, especially if they stray into higher rate tax bands?
I was self-employed myself for a few years and for reasons of principle didn't enter into such arrangements but I ended up paying more tax than I needed to. [Post edited 5 Sep 12:15]
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| Double standards? on 12:39 - Sep 5 with 1307 views | BloomBlue |
But in opposition she condemned ministers in similar situations, and said a Labour government would hold higher standards.
She has clearly lied about seeking expert advice, even though she was still claiming she had on Monday.
I feel she has a lot to offer, but she had to walk.
She was the Secretary of State for housing, stamp duty is a housing tax. She has no excuse for not seeking professional advice - if she had and they had given her incorrect advice then that would be different. |  | | |
| Double standards? on 12:46 - Sep 5 with 1249 views | Vaughan8 |
| Double standards? on 12:14 - Sep 5 by DJR |
Isn't this what a lot of self-employed people do, especially if they stray into higher rate tax bands?
I was self-employed myself for a few years and for reasons of principle didn't enter into such arrangements but I ended up paying more tax than I needed to. [Post edited 5 Sep 12:15]
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The tax differences aren't actually that great. You used to be able to withdraw about £50k from the company without paying any personal tax, hence loads of people incorporated. | | | |
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| Double standards? on 12:48 - Sep 5 with 1219 views | Guthrum |
| Double standards? on 11:56 - Sep 5 by textbackup |
Simple question… why can’t they ALL just play by the rules that we do? |
That was rather my point, not that Rayner should be excused, more that Farage should equally be censured. Not that I expect him to care, he's all in favour of having no tax at all (and consequently no services provided for anybody). |  |
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| Double standards? on 12:51 - Sep 5 with 1191 views | SomethingBlue |
Yep – Farage will never be asked about it by a major broadcaster and most of the public will remain unaware that their messiah is a hugely wealthy, billionaire-backed confidence trickster who can't stop laughing at them. | |
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| Double standards? on 12:51 - Sep 5 with 1180 views | DJR |
| Double standards? on 12:46 - Sep 5 by Vaughan8 |
The tax differences aren't actually that great. You used to be able to withdraw about £50k from the company without paying any personal tax, hence loads of people incorporated. |
At the time I was talking about (15 years ago), I think the advantages were probably greater than now but I never investigated it even though people I knew in a similar situation to me did go down that route. [Post edited 5 Sep 12:53]
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| Double standards? on 12:53 - Sep 5 with 1163 views | Guthrum |
| Double standards? on 12:14 - Sep 5 by DJR |
Isn't this what a lot of self-employed people do, especially if they stray into higher rate tax bands?
I was self-employed myself for a few years and for reasons of principle didn't enter into such arrangements but I ended up paying more tax than I needed to. [Post edited 5 Sep 12:15]
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Technically, those people are no longer self-employed, they are employees and directors of the company they've set up.
Am myself SE, never saw much point in incorporating (extra admin for minimal, if any, gain*). Mind you, I'm not troubling the higher tax bracket, either.
* What I might save in tax, would probably end up paying an accountant, rather than just doing it myself. | |
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| Double standards? on 12:54 - Sep 5 with 1140 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Double standards? on 12:51 - Sep 5 by SomethingBlue |
Yep – Farage will never be asked about it by a major broadcaster and most of the public will remain unaware that their messiah is a hugely wealthy, billionaire-backed confidence trickster who can't stop laughing at them. |
Spot on same as the States |  | | |
| Double standards? on 12:58 - Sep 5 with 1132 views | The_Major |
If you're found to break the ethics code, then off you go, simple as that. It's a great shame as I think it is a genuine mistake on Rayner's part, but them's the rules.
Better to have a government that acts upon the ethics code than what's gone before. Owen Patterson, Priti Patel (remember "form a square around the Prittster"?), Boris Johnson himself, God knows how many others, were all found to have broken the code, and the recommendations ignored. |  | | |
| Double standards? on 12:59 - Sep 5 with 1119 views | Guthrum |
| Double standards? on 12:09 - Sep 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I’d like to have a Deputy PM who holds themselves to higher standards than Farage though?
Not sure it’s really surprising one is more covered in the press. One is a populists banker who’s (fortunately at the moment) not near power. One is supposedly a working class socialist who champions taxing the wealthy fairly and clamping down on tax avoidance. |
But equally, one appears to have been an error, the other a deliberate policy. | |
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| Double standards? on 12:59 - Sep 5 with 1123 views | bsw72 |
| Double standards? on 12:51 - Sep 5 by DJR |
At the time I was talking about (15 years ago), I think the advantages were probably greater than now but I never investigated it even though people I knew in a similar situation to me did go down that route. [Post edited 5 Sep 12:53]
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IR35 significantly reduced the benefits of contracting through a ltd company, was introduced in 2000. Rumour is that it was when the gvmt noticed how much tax money they were losing through contractors in the Tech space around Y2K consultancy work :-)
Not been huge changes in sole trader vs incorporated benefits since then, although the gvmt clamped down around definition of in and out of IR35 around 2016-17. | | | |
| Double standards? on 13:03 - Sep 5 with 1098 views | TractorWood |
| Double standards? on 12:58 - Sep 5 by The_Major |
If you're found to break the ethics code, then off you go, simple as that. It's a great shame as I think it is a genuine mistake on Rayner's part, but them's the rules.
Better to have a government that acts upon the ethics code than what's gone before. Owen Patterson, Priti Patel (remember "form a square around the Prittster"?), Boris Johnson himself, God knows how many others, were all found to have broken the code, and the recommendations ignored. |
The notion you could buy a house, whilst already having a house and not pay stamp duty is utterly ridiculous. To then be housing minister is beyond shambolic.
To have spent the past 8 years calling the tories unethical monsters is just amazing. |  |
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| Double standards? on 13:04 - Sep 5 with 1088 views | Axeldalai_lama |
See also, "Angela Rayner's political career hangs in the balance today" across all news reports Vs Boris and the Tories when it was just a thing that was happening and there may be some potential consequences.
I never remember that type of knife edge portrayal with the Tories, and obviously not Boris. Being a sketchy dodgy type who doesn't face their consequences is an actual advantage with the media as they just leave you be, whereas expecting even the vaguest of morals becomes a burden and disadvantage used against you. [Post edited 5 Sep 13:06]
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| Double standards? on 13:13 - Sep 5 with 1036 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Double standards? on 12:59 - Sep 5 by Guthrum |
But equally, one appears to have been an error, the other a deliberate policy. |
Tax avoidance is legal, practiced by almost everyone (be that an ISA or pension payments). Even footballers setting themselves as a limited company to avoid PAYE rates is a form of avoidance. If Farage is avoiding tax, it’s distasteful but not illegal. If he’s evading it then hopefully he’ll be collared for it.
However there was possible implication in Rayner’s case that it was tax evasion (by not fully disclosing), rather than a tax efficient scheme (therefore illegal). It appears to have been incompetence however by not seeking appropriate professional advice. That she’s resigned from the post was the recommendation of the Ministerial Standards committee.
As much as I can’t stand Farage, I can’t see the equivalence - I suspect a huge percentage of MP’s engaged in tax avoidance schemes. I don’t agree with that but being a minister and the Deputy PM you rightly should be held to higher standards. [Post edited 5 Sep 13:18]
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| Double standards? on 13:15 - Sep 5 with 1026 views | wrightsrightglove |
I’ve got no great anger towards Rayner for this situation, others have committed far far worse acts whilst in government and there’s barely been a murmur but this government and Rayner have promised to be held to a higher account and they should stand by that.
My issue is, how are all of these career politicians multi-millionaires? I was astounded to see Rayners net worth. It just goes to show who really runs the country when every politician is getting ridiculous amounts of backhanders. The whole system is absolutely rotten | | | |
| Double standards? on 13:20 - Sep 5 with 989 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Double standards? on 13:13 - Sep 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Tax avoidance is legal, practiced by almost everyone (be that an ISA or pension payments). Even footballers setting themselves as a limited company to avoid PAYE rates is a form of avoidance. If Farage is avoiding tax, it’s distasteful but not illegal. If he’s evading it then hopefully he’ll be collared for it.
However there was possible implication in Rayner’s case that it was tax evasion (by not fully disclosing), rather than a tax efficient scheme (therefore illegal). It appears to have been incompetence however by not seeking appropriate professional advice. That she’s resigned from the post was the recommendation of the Ministerial Standards committee.
As much as I can’t stand Farage, I can’t see the equivalence - I suspect a huge percentage of MP’s engaged in tax avoidance schemes. I don’t agree with that but being a minister and the Deputy PM you rightly should be held to higher standards. [Post edited 5 Sep 13:18]
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There is no suggestion of evasion here at all. Just genuine and understandable error. | | | |
| Double standards? on 13:25 - Sep 5 with 971 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Double standards? on 13:20 - Sep 5 by redrickstuhaart |
There is no suggestion of evasion here at all. Just genuine and understandable error. |
“ It appears to have been incompetence however by not seeking appropriate professional advice.”
I was referencing when the story broke - before her case had been reviewed. I’ve read the subsequent statement from the Independent Minsterial Standards Committee. | | | |
| Double standards? on 13:30 - Sep 5 with 935 views | TractorWood |
| Double standards? on 13:20 - Sep 5 by redrickstuhaart |
There is no suggestion of evasion here at all. Just genuine and understandable error. |
Would probably challenge it to be a genuine and understandable error. If you have complex affairs, you seek advice. She did not and chose to not pay the tax. | |
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| Double standards? on 13:30 - Sep 5 with 934 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Double standards? on 13:15 - Sep 5 by wrightsrightglove |
I’ve got no great anger towards Rayner for this situation, others have committed far far worse acts whilst in government and there’s barely been a murmur but this government and Rayner have promised to be held to a higher account and they should stand by that.
My issue is, how are all of these career politicians multi-millionaires? I was astounded to see Rayners net worth. It just goes to show who really runs the country when every politician is getting ridiculous amounts of backhanders. The whole system is absolutely rotten |
Does her net worth include the six figure plus payment from the NHS for her son for having permanent and ongoing medical issues for the rest of his life? Seems a bit disingenuous if so. | | | |
| Double standards? on 13:33 - Sep 5 with 924 views | bluestandard |
| Double standards? on 12:53 - Sep 5 by Guthrum |
Technically, those people are no longer self-employed, they are employees and directors of the company they've set up.
Am myself SE, never saw much point in incorporating (extra admin for minimal, if any, gain*). Mind you, I'm not troubling the higher tax bracket, either.
* What I might save in tax, would probably end up paying an accountant, rather than just doing it myself. |
Of course one of the major advantages of incorporating is to effectively protect your personal assets from any liability you might face for negligently providing goods or services. That's entirely legitimate.
I'm sorry but I think the argument you are making here is a weak one. As long as Farage is following the law, you can't bracket his legitimate tax avoidance behaviour in with a clear failure to pay the required tax, whichever way our politics might lean.
I also find the point that people could choose not to deploy the most tax-efficient strategy somewhat arbitrary. Tax laws need to be effective and any system which relies on voluntary behaviour which is disadvantageous to the individual tax payer involved (when compared to the behaviour permitted by the tax laws in force at the time) is already broken. | | | |
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