| The budget 06:44 - Nov 4 with 4951 views | chicoazul |
Looks like all the TWTDers who have been lecturing us about how we need to pay more tax it’s our duty the country is in ruins etc are going to get their wish.
I expect the next three years to be absolute halcyon days with the grown ups in charge and income tax & NI seeing the clever people in the treasury raking it in! How exciting! |  |
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| The budget on 09:44 - Nov 4 with 1101 views | iamatractorboy |
| The budget on 09:34 - Nov 4 by TractorWood |
Did lowering the LEL and increasing NI and CGT raise tax receipts or did it prompt the stalling of the economy and spook business confidence?
Equally by most of the rhetoric on here, if it had there would have been a noticeable increase in the quality of public services because:
HiGHer TAXes = BETtER SErviCes [Post edited 4 Nov 9:36]
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Would you expect an IMMEDIATE increase in quality/availability etc, or do you think it might take some time? If you smash down a house it takes a lot longer to build it (properly) again. |  | | |
| The budget on 09:45 - Nov 4 with 1101 views | soupytwist |
| The budget on 09:34 - Nov 4 by TractorWood |
Did lowering the LEL and increasing NI and CGT raise tax receipts or did it prompt the stalling of the economy and spook business confidence?
Equally by most of the rhetoric on here, if it had there would have been a noticeable increase in the quality of public services because:
HiGHer TAXes = BETtER SErviCes [Post edited 4 Nov 9:36]
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If you're talking about the Laffer curve, concentrate on the tax receipts side of your comparison.
As far I know the Laffer curve has nothing to do with nebulous concepts like "business confidence".
Higher taxes don't necessarily = better services because a lot of tax receipts pay for things that aren't 'services'. |  | | |
| The budget on 09:48 - Nov 4 with 1086 views | SonOfSpock |
| The budget on 07:38 - Nov 4 by TractorWood |
Public services are badly run. No amount of tax will fix them.
Equally our chancellor doesn't seem to understand the laffer curve. That was her NI shortcoming.
Take the expected plan to introduce ERs NI on LLPs. They will all just incorporate and then gain the power to retain profits. She always neglects to think about the obvious ramifications of her relentless pot hunting. |
Agreed - a country doesnt grow its economy by increasing taxes. |  | | |
| The budget on 09:56 - Nov 4 with 1057 views | iamatractorboy |
| The budget on 09:48 - Nov 4 by SonOfSpock |
Agreed - a country doesnt grow its economy by increasing taxes. |
What about to pay for improved infrastructure, better public transport etc? | | | |
| The budget on 09:58 - Nov 4 with 1047 views | iamatractorboy |
| The budget on 09:56 - Nov 4 by iamatractorboy |
What about to pay for improved infrastructure, better public transport etc? |
Or how about to improve health care and keep people in work. And educate people better... I'm sure there are more things. | | | |
| The budget on 10:06 - Nov 4 with 1025 views | Pinewoodblue |
A few rambling comments on points made.
In reality there is nothing wrong with calling State Pension a benefit. It is a good idea after almost all benefits are not taxed.
I don’t believe there is a massive amount of benefit fraud but there certainly is a lot of benefit abuse. There are companies that offer to ensure you receive any benefits, such as PIP or whatever they call it now. Same applies to Attendance Allowance for pensioners. These companies charge no fees unless the claim is successful. It is all down to choosing the right words, filling in the 30 page application form in a way which endures you maximise the amount of benefit you receive.
I know several people who ‘benefit’ from this. There are incidentally many charities who will provide the same service without charging a fee.
Tax bands need a complete review, bring back the 10% band, and add another between basic & higher tax bands.
This sleight of hand proposal to reduce NI and switch it to Income tax is silly. Just do away with NI collect one tax instead of two.
Triple lock. Simple solution change it. Instead of 2.5% or % increase in wages or inflation. Make it 2.5% or the mean average of the other two, and make the date it is based on the same for both.
Many regarded Starmer’s Labour Party as Tory light, but in truth it hasn’t been that light but more of the same dithering, |  |
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| The budget on 10:10 - Nov 4 with 1007 views | Churchman |
| The budget on 09:00 - Nov 4 by Swansea_Blue |
It’s reasonable to raise the issue of benefit fraud. It’s substantial. Overpayment on benefits in 24/25 was about £9.5BN. Another area where there are major problems impacting government income include the tax gap. The tax gap is estimated to be £46.8BN per year in 23/24, the largest component being unpaid corporation tax of about £7BN (all figures from here, with links to official sources - https://theferret.scot/claim-costs-asylum-benefit-fraud-tax-mostly-false/).
Cutting benefit fraud/overpayments and closing the tax gap by 50% each would almost fill this supposed £30BN black hole in the public finances. Interestingly/frustratingly, there seems insufficient appetite to cut fraud - HMRC criminal investigations for tax avoidance have reduced from 749 in 2018-19 to 344 in 2023-24 (presumably at least partly due to cost savings in HMRC?).
Of course, stimulating growth would help too; it can’t all be about cutting waste/fraud. But that in part involves talking about the B word and there aren’t enough adults in Westminster to do that yet. |
The processes that were in place to tackle tax avoidance were comprehensive and specialised. Some would go after large business, some small business, personal tax you name it. To become a tax inspector requires brains and hard work. Beyond the qualifications you then need to learn the job which takes years.
The tories waved an airy hand and didn’t care about that. 1000s were retired, moved on voluntarily to businesses like insolvency practitioners etc. one bloke I know retired at 50. Pension to 60 all paid up and paid from date of retirement. Golden handshakes? Oh yeah and they’d have been mad to stay.
All govt cared about was head count. Get em out the door at any price was govt policy (austerity). When I challenged an acquaintance in Treasury on the folly of this he said ‘don't be silly, we can just print more money’.
A friend ran a highly specialised team going after the big guys. The serious criminals. They were recovering literally millions or seizing bad guys assets. Mansions, Rollers, Ice Cream vans, barges, hotels, golf course. You name it. They’re actual examples. The team has been all but gone now.
When Brexit fraud raised its head, a lot of the big hitter teams were redirected on it. Serious criminals? Who cares. The govt and everyone knew there was no chance of recovering the money (lucky for them as thanks to their mates I’ve no doubt their hands were dirty with it) but Hunt or whoever wanted to tell Parliament that recovering the money was the priority. So how much was recovered? Yep, you’ve guessed it. Politics before practical reality.
The govt at the time said serious crime was no longer a priority. This is not a lie. It’s how it was and is. There’s no votes in cutting waste and fraud so I doubt this lot are any more interested than the last. |  | | |
| The budget on 10:41 - Nov 4 with 947 views | KrakenBlue |
I've seen they're floating ideas around reducing NI by 2% and adding 2% on to Income Tax.
Quite in favour of that - it isn't a tax increase for working people and means more tax paid on dividends, pensions and assets.
Sensible idea would be to banish the triple lock but it'd be career suicide. So it'll be the death of us all | | | |
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| The budget on 11:51 - Nov 4 with 898 views | mellowblue |
I would not begrudge them an extra couple of pence in the pound if you thought it was going to be spent sensibly, but it won't. | | | |
| The budget on 11:53 - Nov 4 with 883 views | mellowblue |
| The budget on 09:56 - Nov 4 by iamatractorboy |
What about to pay for improved infrastructure, better public transport etc? |
and where are the spending promises to back that up. A Government with few ambitions. | | | |
| The budget on 11:53 - Nov 4 with 878 views | soupytwist |
| The budget on 11:51 - Nov 4 by mellowblue |
I would not begrudge them an extra couple of pence in the pound if you thought it was going to be spent sensibly, but it won't. |
The 'I wouldn't mind paying extra in tax if it were spent sensibly' is a bit of a cop out if you ask me. What's your definition of sensibly? What will it be spent on that you don't think it should?
There will always be things that the overall tax take is spent on that one person or another could disagree with. But we accept some of those because it means that the things we care about as individuals are funded from tax. | | | |
| The budget on 12:00 - Nov 4 with 864 views | Benters |
| The budget on 11:51 - Nov 4 by mellowblue |
I would not begrudge them an extra couple of pence in the pound if you thought it was going to be spent sensibly, but it won't. |
This. |  |
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| The budget on 12:29 - Nov 4 with 822 views | glasso |
| The budget on 07:38 - Nov 4 by TractorWood |
Public services are badly run. No amount of tax will fix them.
Equally our chancellor doesn't seem to understand the laffer curve. That was her NI shortcoming.
Take the expected plan to introduce ERs NI on LLPs. They will all just incorporate and then gain the power to retain profits. She always neglects to think about the obvious ramifications of her relentless pot hunting. |
Jeeeez the Laffer Curve supporters are all out today. Must be about the fifth time I've seen it brought up. It's a theory, not a scientific equation to 'understand.'
Even economists who agree with the general principle of the Laffer Curve can't agree on where the actual peak of it is. And just like with everything of this nature, there are a zillion other factors that would affect it, so the peak could be shifting by the day and in a completely different place from when he first suggested it half a century ago.
So even as a Laffer fanboy, how do you know that we're not currently sitting on the left of that curve, half way up to the Laffer peak, which we'll only hit when everybody's paying 95% tax?
I don't think Labour are covering themselves in glory but it's absolutely wild to see people parroting support for the rich and suggesting we head back to doing exactly the same as we've done for the past 50 years in the hope it'll solve everything. | | | |
| The budget on 12:34 - Nov 4 with 813 views | vapour_trail |
Oh good, it’s time for some more edgy takes from the board free thinker.
Get inline to be tutored on the ways of the world, twtders. |  |
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| The budget on 12:58 - Nov 4 with 757 views | lowhouseblue |
| The budget on 07:51 - Nov 4 by DJR |
It was austerity wot done it, according to a Nobel prize-winning economist.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2024/jun/28/how-the-unforced
Austerity itself was an excuse to shrink the state and we have been suffering the consequences ever since.
EDIT: here is an extract.
To sum up: a decade ago, the main critique of austerity was macroeconomic – it was holding back recovery from the severe recession that followed the global financial crisis. And it did. But that was not the end of the story. Austerity also gradually undermined public services, including healthcare.
What will a Labour government do to reverse this damage? There are two reasons to worry it will fall short.
First, the era of Conservative austerity coincided with an era of low interest rates and substantial excess capacity, exactly the conditions under which Britain should have been investing in its future. The current environment is much less favourable.
Second, Labour’s stated plans lack any ambition to reverse austerity. In the US, the Biden administration came in with bold plans and managed to accomplish a significant fraction of them despite having only a razor-thin congressional majority. I am not hearing anything comparable from Labour, even though Keir Starmer seems on course to have political capital beyond the wildest dreams of US progressives.
I hope to be proved wrong. But right now it looks as though the shadow of austerity policies adopted in error 14 years ago will continue to darken Britain’s prospects for many years to come.
[Post edited 4 Nov 8:02]
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"Austerity itself was an excuse to shrink the state and we have been suffering the consequences ever since."
you think the state has shrunk since 2010? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The budget on 13:01 - Nov 4 with 743 views | lowhouseblue |
| The budget on 08:47 - Nov 4 by Herbivore |
A lot of people on universal credit are in work, they are just paid a pitifully low wage. A lot of other people on benefits have disabilities that mean they can't work. The number of people who could work, who live in an area that has jobs that they are capable of doing, but who don't work is very small and would make no real difference to the overall public finances. |
"The number of people who could work, who live in an area that has jobs that they are capable of doing, but who don't work is very small and would make no real difference to the overall public finances."
do you have any data that shows that? or is it just faith rather than evidence? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The budget on 13:09 - Nov 4 with 739 views | giant_stow |
| The budget on 13:01 - Nov 4 by lowhouseblue |
"The number of people who could work, who live in an area that has jobs that they are capable of doing, but who don't work is very small and would make no real difference to the overall public finances."
do you have any data that shows that? or is it just faith rather than evidence? |
Not take sides in the impending debate, but I'd be interested to see figures on how many people aren't working because of poor mental health. Some seem to point to this as an 'epidemic' but are there really 100s of thousands of people off work for anxiety or depression? Not to make light of these conditions btw, but speaking as loon, I always remember one of my shrinks saying 'no one over got mentally more well from not working'. That's probably quite a statement from him, but its one of things that's kept me battling, when tempted to take a breather for MH reasons. [Post edited 4 Nov 13:51]
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| The budget on 13:10 - Nov 4 with 737 views | NthQldITFC |
Levels of inequality in this country (and other countries) are so severe now, and the infrastructure of the country is so decayed, that a redistribution of wealth is an absolute necessity for all of us, if survival is of interest. I'm happy to accept that, personally. This won't even scratch the surface, but at least it's facing in the right direction.
The out and out capitalist dream of me first and magical perpetual growth is a dead duck that still quacks far too loudly. |  |
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| The budget on 13:28 - Nov 4 with 701 views | MJallday |
The chancellor seems to think everyone on more than 45k is a bl**y millionaire, living the life of riley
what she fails to appreciate is this
45k a year = 3k bringhome
£1000 = most peoples rent/mortgage
£100 = most peoples gas bill
£150 = msost peoples electricty bill
£50 = most peoples water bill
£300 = most peoples transport costs (to get to work)
£250 = most peoples council tax bill
£200 = most peoples insurances (car/buildings/life/health/contents)
£500 = most peoples food bill a month
£50 = mobile phone bills
this leaves less than £75 a week to actually do anything. assuming none of the appliances in your house break, you dont want to leave the house to do anything except work, dont have any other expenses not listed above and basically want to live - oh and dont have any car payments (which most people do) , loan payments (which most people do ) , credit card payments (which most people do) or similar.
i maintain, and i will absolutely die on this hill - if you earn less than 150k a year in the UK - you cannot be considered wealthy or well off.
30 years ago, probably. not now. |  |
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| The budget on 13:37 - Nov 4 with 666 views | lowhouseblue |
| The budget on 13:09 - Nov 4 by giant_stow |
Not take sides in the impending debate, but I'd be interested to see figures on how many people aren't working because of poor mental health. Some seem to point to this as an 'epidemic' but are there really 100s of thousands of people off work for anxiety or depression? Not to make light of these conditions btw, but speaking as loon, I always remember one of my shrinks saying 'no one over got mentally more well from not working'. That's probably quite a statement from him, but its one of things that's kept me battling, when tempted to take a breather for MH reasons. [Post edited 4 Nov 13:51]
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in 2023 more than half of those economically inactive because of long-term sickness, or over 1.3 million people, reported ‘depression, bad nerves or anxiety’ as the reason. the 2025 report showed this has since risen, particularly amongst the under 35s. the government view - and i think a lot of health professionals - agrees with yours that inactivity doesn't aid recovery. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The budget on 13:51 - Nov 4 with 652 views | giant_stow |
| The budget on 13:37 - Nov 4 by lowhouseblue |
in 2023 more than half of those economically inactive because of long-term sickness, or over 1.3 million people, reported ‘depression, bad nerves or anxiety’ as the reason. the 2025 report showed this has since risen, particularly amongst the under 35s. the government view - and i think a lot of health professionals - agrees with yours that inactivity doesn't aid recovery. |
That's fascinating - cheers. I wonder what can be done to help and support people in this situation. Big question I spose. | |
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| The budget on 13:56 - Nov 4 with 623 views | chicoazul |
| The budget on 12:34 - Nov 4 by vapour_trail |
Oh good, it’s time for some more edgy takes from the board free thinker.
Get inline to be tutored on the ways of the world, twtders. |
Going well with your lot isn’t it, imagine you’re delighted ushering Farage into power. | |
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| The budget on 14:01 - Nov 4 with 601 views | DJR |
The elephant in the room is that the latest figures from ONS show 717,000 vacancies, and I rather doubt that many don't require prior experience.
And given that my daughter, who left university two years ago, has had on job applications to account for all she has done since 18, it doesn't strike me that employers are particularly keen on gaps in employment.
EDT: According to the ONS, this is the 39th consecutive period where vacancy numbers have dropped compared with the previous three months, with vacancies decreasing in half of the 18 industry sectors.
It ain't easy to get a job these days, and even graduates are struggling. [Post edited 4 Nov 14:30]
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| The budget on 15:59 - Nov 4 with 504 views | mellowblue |
| The budget on 11:53 - Nov 4 by soupytwist |
The 'I wouldn't mind paying extra in tax if it were spent sensibly' is a bit of a cop out if you ask me. What's your definition of sensibly? What will it be spent on that you don't think it should?
There will always be things that the overall tax take is spent on that one person or another could disagree with. But we accept some of those because it means that the things we care about as individuals are funded from tax. |
getting value for money on what they do intend spending it on would be a start, having ambitious plans might be another. But at the end of the day it is to prop up a shaky government spending/ income deficit, so probably won't be new spending at all. It will just be absorbed into the system as most taxes are. | | | |
| The budget on 16:06 - Nov 4 with 494 views | mellowblue |
| The budget on 13:37 - Nov 4 by lowhouseblue |
in 2023 more than half of those economically inactive because of long-term sickness, or over 1.3 million people, reported ‘depression, bad nerves or anxiety’ as the reason. the 2025 report showed this has since risen, particularly amongst the under 35s. the government view - and i think a lot of health professionals - agrees with yours that inactivity doesn't aid recovery. |
I get the impression post covid this has risen because many have opted out of working altogether. Whether mental health is responsible or whether it is a card being played? I know it is a callous remark, but I come across too many playing the system. | | | |
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