| Labour's Asylum Crack Down 18:10 - Nov 17 with 4199 views | TNBlue |
Disastrous move for them. Will tear the party right down the middle. |  | | |  |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:50 - Nov 18 with 763 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:25 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
Regardless of whether they end up having electoral success in 2029, Reform have already won. They've been allowed to set and dominate the political agenda and the mainstream parties have been totally incapable of challenging them. Gutless politics, particularly from Labour. Think this will lose them voters for a generation, much like the Lib Dems in 2010 when they climbed into bed with the Tories. It took them 14 years and a complete Tory collapse for them to recover as a party. |
but what you always leave out of your take on this is the electorate. over 70 % think that immigration has been too high. reform have gained from that because until now the other parties have, despite tory rhetoric, simply ignored it*. once you get past treating the bulk of the electorate as easily manipulated malign fools, it is the electorate which have set and dominated this agenda. a government will not now be re-elected if it fails to grapple with the issues that most of the electorate have consistently identified as their top priorities - economic prosperity, the nhs, and ... immigration.
*and it's not just that reform have gained by reflecting public priorities on this, they have also benefited from a general decline in trust in politics as other parties have ignored the issue. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:56 - Nov 18 with 749 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:50 - Nov 18 by lowhouseblue |
but what you always leave out of your take on this is the electorate. over 70 % think that immigration has been too high. reform have gained from that because until now the other parties have, despite tory rhetoric, simply ignored it*. once you get past treating the bulk of the electorate as easily manipulated malign fools, it is the electorate which have set and dominated this agenda. a government will not now be re-elected if it fails to grapple with the issues that most of the electorate have consistently identified as their top priorities - economic prosperity, the nhs, and ... immigration.
*and it's not just that reform have gained by reflecting public priorities on this, they have also benefited from a general decline in trust in politics as other parties have ignored the issue. |
They think it's too high because they have been repeatedly told that and sold that as the reason for all woes.
You can't ignore that context, if accuracy was enforced on platforms then I suspect the figures and narrative would be very different but when there is no downside to lying this is what happens.
Trump is the pinnacle example of this, if you lie enough then in the end people believe it and challenging the lies becomes ineffective. It's a technique that's been heavily adopted since it worked for him.
By all means we should have a sensible discussion on immigration but in reality it's not possible when facts don't matter to one side of the debate.
SB |  | | |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:59 - Nov 18 with 735 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:44 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
Everything that Labour needs to do will tear the party down the middle, so they just need to get on with it |
Why would going back to a democratic socialist set of policies tear the party down the middle?
What's tearing them down the middle is chasing Reform policies and voters.
Implement your own policies and if the public don't think it's enough in 3 years then at least they tried. Implementing Reform-lite policies isn't going to save them.
SB | | | |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:59 - Nov 18 with 732 views | Herbivore |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:44 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
Everything that Labour needs to do will tear the party down the middle, so they just need to get on with it |
This isn't something they need to do though. It's a political choice. And a bad one at that. |  |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:02 - Nov 18 with 710 views | Herbivore |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:56 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
They think it's too high because they have been repeatedly told that and sold that as the reason for all woes.
You can't ignore that context, if accuracy was enforced on platforms then I suspect the figures and narrative would be very different but when there is no downside to lying this is what happens.
Trump is the pinnacle example of this, if you lie enough then in the end people believe it and challenging the lies becomes ineffective. It's a technique that's been heavily adopted since it worked for him.
By all means we should have a sensible discussion on immigration but in reality it's not possible when facts don't matter to one side of the debate.
SB |
Yes but if you point out the well-evidenced influence that media reporting has on people's attitudes towards immigration then apparently that's you saying the public are easily led fools, rather than just stating facts. | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:22 - Nov 18 with 651 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 08:56 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
They think it's too high because they have been repeatedly told that and sold that as the reason for all woes.
You can't ignore that context, if accuracy was enforced on platforms then I suspect the figures and narrative would be very different but when there is no downside to lying this is what happens.
Trump is the pinnacle example of this, if you lie enough then in the end people believe it and challenging the lies becomes ineffective. It's a technique that's been heavily adopted since it worked for him.
By all means we should have a sensible discussion on immigration but in reality it's not possible when facts don't matter to one side of the debate.
SB |
so why is it only other people who are sold things? why do they fall for inaccuracy and lies but you don't?
why do you attach no significance to people's experience and observations in explaining why they form their views. for example, i've posted before that while we are in a long-term housing crisis, in many local authority areas now a majority of social housing tenants are now foreign nationals. in some urban areas it's up to 75%. i'm guessing social housing waiting lists don't affect you, but can you imagine people born locally and on a waiting list seeing that as unfair?
just dismissing the views other people have formed - actually a majority of the electorate - as lies they have been sold and fallen for is not good. when parties do it it plays to a perception of an elite form of politics which voters have had enough of. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:36 - Nov 18 with 609 views | DJR |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:22 - Nov 18 by lowhouseblue |
so why is it only other people who are sold things? why do they fall for inaccuracy and lies but you don't?
why do you attach no significance to people's experience and observations in explaining why they form their views. for example, i've posted before that while we are in a long-term housing crisis, in many local authority areas now a majority of social housing tenants are now foreign nationals. in some urban areas it's up to 75%. i'm guessing social housing waiting lists don't affect you, but can you imagine people born locally and on a waiting list seeing that as unfair?
just dismissing the views other people have formed - actually a majority of the electorate - as lies they have been sold and fallen for is not good. when parties do it it plays to a perception of an elite form of politics which voters have had enough of. |
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nearly-half-of-brits-misunderstand-key-uk
Almost half of Brits believe that most immigration to the UK is illegal rather than legal, according to a new poll.
As researchers at YouGov found, there is a “simple misconception” around the scale and nature of British immigration.
Of the 8,055 UK adults approached for the poll, 47% said they believe there’s more illegal immigration rather than legal – including 32% who said the illegal figure is “much higher”.
The trouble is the number of undocumented people who arrive into the UK via so-called illegal means, like crossing the English Channel in a small boat, is actually dwarfed by the number of arrive legally.
According to the Home Office, there were 44,125 irregular arrivals in the year to March, 86% of whom arrived on small boats.
That works out to be just 4% of the 948,000 overall number who immigrated to the UK during the same period. |  | | |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:37 - Nov 18 with 606 views | Trequartista |
This Mahmood lady seems quite determined which makes a change from the usual politician. We've seen this before with others and it has come to nothing but let's give her plans a go and see what happens. |  |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:39 - Nov 18 with 596 views | Herbivore |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:36 - Nov 18 by DJR |
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nearly-half-of-brits-misunderstand-key-uk
Almost half of Brits believe that most immigration to the UK is illegal rather than legal, according to a new poll.
As researchers at YouGov found, there is a “simple misconception” around the scale and nature of British immigration.
Of the 8,055 UK adults approached for the poll, 47% said they believe there’s more illegal immigration rather than legal – including 32% who said the illegal figure is “much higher”.
The trouble is the number of undocumented people who arrive into the UK via so-called illegal means, like crossing the English Channel in a small boat, is actually dwarfed by the number of arrive legally.
According to the Home Office, there were 44,125 irregular arrivals in the year to March, 86% of whom arrived on small boats.
That works out to be just 4% of the 948,000 overall number who immigrated to the UK during the same period. |
People also routinely overestimate the proportion of people in the UK who weren't born here, often overestimating by 100% of the actual proportion. Attitudes towards immigration also tend to be harsher in areas with low rates of immigrants, similarly attitudes tend to be softer in areas with greater diversity. But if you point any of this out you're labelling people as thick racists apparently rather than, you know, pointing out things that are well-evidenced. | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:40 - Nov 18 with 585 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:36 - Nov 18 by DJR |
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nearly-half-of-brits-misunderstand-key-uk
Almost half of Brits believe that most immigration to the UK is illegal rather than legal, according to a new poll.
As researchers at YouGov found, there is a “simple misconception” around the scale and nature of British immigration.
Of the 8,055 UK adults approached for the poll, 47% said they believe there’s more illegal immigration rather than legal – including 32% who said the illegal figure is “much higher”.
The trouble is the number of undocumented people who arrive into the UK via so-called illegal means, like crossing the English Channel in a small boat, is actually dwarfed by the number of arrive legally.
According to the Home Office, there were 44,125 irregular arrivals in the year to March, 86% of whom arrived on small boats.
That works out to be just 4% of the 948,000 overall number who immigrated to the UK during the same period. |
while it's clearly untrue that that most immigration to the UK is illegal, you seem to be assuming that the only 'illegal' migrants are small boat irregular arrivals. you are forgetting the estimated 1 million plus who are here illegally having overstayed visas etc. so there is clearly misperception on both sides of the debate. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:42 - Nov 18 with 580 views | Herbivore |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:37 - Nov 18 by Trequartista |
This Mahmood lady seems quite determined which makes a change from the usual politician. We've seen this before with others and it has come to nothing but let's give her plans a go and see what happens. |
Yes, because confiscating the possessions of people seeking asylum is definitely the hallmark of a decent and civilised country and absolutely the sort of thing we should "give a go". | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:43 - Nov 18 with 579 views | Trequartista |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:42 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
Yes, because confiscating the possessions of people seeking asylum is definitely the hallmark of a decent and civilised country and absolutely the sort of thing we should "give a go". |
I didn't realise Denmark was such a despotic regime. | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:45 - Nov 18 with 576 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:22 - Nov 18 by lowhouseblue |
so why is it only other people who are sold things? why do they fall for inaccuracy and lies but you don't?
why do you attach no significance to people's experience and observations in explaining why they form their views. for example, i've posted before that while we are in a long-term housing crisis, in many local authority areas now a majority of social housing tenants are now foreign nationals. in some urban areas it's up to 75%. i'm guessing social housing waiting lists don't affect you, but can you imagine people born locally and on a waiting list seeing that as unfair?
just dismissing the views other people have formed - actually a majority of the electorate - as lies they have been sold and fallen for is not good. when parties do it it plays to a perception of an elite form of politics which voters have had enough of. |
You're just playing the "but both sides" card as you always do, there are lots of studies showing people's beliefs around immigration aren't based in facts and evidence.
The housing crisis example you've highlighted isn't the fault of immigration, it's the fault of 20+ years of failed government policy around social housing. You've just given a prime example of where immigration is blamed for something that's actually a systematic failure of something else.
SB | | | |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:53 - Nov 18 with 544 views | Herbivore |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:43 - Nov 18 by Trequartista |
I didn't realise Denmark was such a despotic regime. |
Not despotic but I strongly disagree with their approach on this issue, as I do Labour. It's the blase "let's give it a go" attitude to policies that are, frankly, just plain nasty that I find problematic too. | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:56 - Nov 18 with 525 views | DJR |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:40 - Nov 18 by lowhouseblue |
while it's clearly untrue that that most immigration to the UK is illegal, you seem to be assuming that the only 'illegal' migrants are small boat irregular arrivals. you are forgetting the estimated 1 million plus who are here illegally having overstayed visas etc. so there is clearly misperception on both sides of the debate. |
Don't blame me, blame YouGov or Huff Post. 
And if we take your figure of 1 million here illegally, there were in 2021, 10.7 million foreign born people in the UK, including me, a figure which has no doubt since then increased by a couple of million or so.
As it is, you've called for a debate on this issue, but it is difficult to have a rational debate if nearly half the population think there are more illegal immigrants than legal.
EDIT: this from the YouGov report on its polling.
Estimates of the population of illegal migrants living in the UK range from 120,000 to 1.3 million, with Reform UK’s Zia Yusuf recently putting the figure at 1.2 million.
Regardless of which figure from this range is chosen, it does not come close to the number of migrants living in the UK legally, with 2021/2022 census data putting the entire foreign-born population of the UK at 10.7 million. [Post edited 18 Nov 10:03]
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:04 - Nov 18 with 494 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:53 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
Not despotic but I strongly disagree with their approach on this issue, as I do Labour. It's the blase "let's give it a go" attitude to policies that are, frankly, just plain nasty that I find problematic too. |
The situation is more acute, than here, in many European countries. For every immigrant who arrives in UK, from any source, another 9 arrive in to the EU. |  |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down (n/t) on 10:07 - Nov 18 with 471 views | EdwardStone |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:45 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
You're just playing the "but both sides" card as you always do, there are lots of studies showing people's beliefs around immigration aren't based in facts and evidence.
The housing crisis example you've highlighted isn't the fault of immigration, it's the fault of 20+ years of failed government policy around social housing. You've just given a prime example of where immigration is blamed for something that's actually a systematic failure of something else.
SB |
nt [Post edited 18 Nov 10:08]
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:09 - Nov 18 with 467 views | jas0999 |
The Tories supporting it, should tell them, all they need to know! | | | |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:13 - Nov 18 with 447 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:45 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
You're just playing the "but both sides" card as you always do, there are lots of studies showing people's beliefs around immigration aren't based in facts and evidence.
The housing crisis example you've highlighted isn't the fault of immigration, it's the fault of 20+ years of failed government policy around social housing. You've just given a prime example of where immigration is blamed for something that's actually a systematic failure of something else.
SB |
Those twenty wasted years have resulted in the current situation where many, because of way things are prioritised, have very little chance of receiving social housing,
As a result more and more of the new social housing tenants are on lower incomes, unemployed or have health or disability issues.
We just aren’t building enough to get to those lower down the waiting list. | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:13 - Nov 18 with 448 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 09:45 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
You're just playing the "but both sides" card as you always do, there are lots of studies showing people's beliefs around immigration aren't based in facts and evidence.
The housing crisis example you've highlighted isn't the fault of immigration, it's the fault of 20+ years of failed government policy around social housing. You've just given a prime example of where immigration is blamed for something that's actually a systematic failure of something else.
SB |
But whether it's failed Govt policy on social housing or not [which I don't disagree with], we are where we are and that can't be corrected with a wave of a wand.
So the point stands, and people can't get social housing and see the majority of it filled by non British born people in urban areas - so what is the solution for now? |  |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:18 - Nov 18 with 422 views | DJR |
A few observations.
1. From media reports, it seems that these proposals will in the main be accepted by the vast majority of Labour MPs, with many facing potential obliteration at the next election.
2. Requiring refugee status to be reviewed every 2.5 years will make it difficult for people to get jobs with long term prospects or to obtain mortgages thus increasing the possibility that they will meet the criteria for deportation.
3. We currently have returns agreements with only 17 countries, and can no longer return people to the EU (France excepted). What's going to happen to those we want to deport but can't? [Post edited 18 Nov 10:19]
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:34 - Nov 18 with 386 views | Herbivore |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 10:13 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
But whether it's failed Govt policy on social housing or not [which I don't disagree with], we are where we are and that can't be corrected with a wave of a wand.
So the point stands, and people can't get social housing and see the majority of it filled by non British born people in urban areas - so what is the solution for now? |
Those stats on social housing in urban areas require some context: https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/foreign-born-residents-live-less-than-50-lond
And nationally it's only 18% of people living in social housing who were born outside the UK, which is similar to the proportion of people living in the UK who weren't born here. Also, residency requirements to apply for social housing mean and rules around no recourse to public funds make it unlikely that many of those in social housing are recent arrivals to the UK, far more likely to be people who have lived here for a longer period. The proportions of non-UK born versus UK born people living in social housing didn't shift much from the 2011 to 2021 census so it's not like this is a new issue. | |
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 11:08 - Nov 18 with 324 views | The_Major |
Thing is, if you're so minded to vote Reform, surely you will vote full strength Reform, and not an attempted tribute act, so I can't see them gaining any votes from that direction. Secondly, this will drive voters away from Labour towards the Lib Dems or the Greens I would have thought - so I can't see this being a vote winner.
Also, did she actually address the main reason there's been an explosion in boat crossings since 2016? Pointing out we actually had more control before Brexit might spike Reform's guns in some cases.
And there's a lot of people who just want you out if you can't trace your heritage back to Hereward the Wake, and especially if you're of a different colour. Case in point - I deactivated my Facebook account some time ago, but occasionally reactivate it now and again to spend an hour to catch up on folk and to see new family photos etc. The main reason being that some of the comments I was seeing on news stories were disgusting.
I popped on there yesterday, and saw a story from either the BBC or the Star about a blue plaque being put up to commemorate Kavas Badshah, who was the first Indian born chap to become Ipswich mayor 100 years ago.
Underneath were comments along the lines of we don't commemorate white people that became mayor, so why do this now? It's just indicative of there being so many people from overseas here now. Just shows they're taking over etc etc etc. (How can it be indicative of things now, it was a century ago?!)
This neatly overlooks that several past mayors have been commemorated in the past - a look at the excellent Ipswich Lettering website reveals that Bartholomew Street, Booth Court, Chevallier Street, Grimwade Street, Hossack Road, Pauls Road, and Rands Way were all probably named after former mayors. And so was Badshah Avenue.
As ever, a lot of the rhetoric is vile, and sooner or later, something terrible is going to happen to a group of these folk, be they on a boat in the channel, housed in a hotel, or even ones who have been living happily for years here - and there will be some people who will be demanding street parties as a response, and these people are beneath contempt.
Hatred of someone else because they're a different colour, or come from a different place, or worship a different God, or on the basis of who they choose to be or choose to love, or if they do not fit the parameters of the perceived norm is a morally bankrupt, evil act of rancid stupidity.
People just believe what is on the front of the Daily Mail, or on Facebook, or hear a comment along the lines of "I was standing behind someone not speaking English in Morrisons the other day - they're everywhere!" and just take it all as gospel. The truthful narrative doesn't seem to get pushed. [Post edited 18 Nov 11:17]
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| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 11:12 - Nov 18 with 317 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 18:24 - Nov 17 by Zx1988 |
It's an absolute capitulation to Reform. It's not immigration that's tearing the country apart, it's unchecked and unchallenged right wing, borderline-fascist rhetoric.
What I find most horrific is the idea that refugees could be sent back at any time during the 20-year qualification period, should it be deemed that their country of origin is 'safe' again. Why should someone who makes it here, and is accepted as a refugee, spend twenty years fearing a knock on the door and being told to go back home? |
On the other hand some might reasonably say:
You are welcome here as a refugee whilst your country is unsafe on the understanding that you agree to return to your country of origin once it is safe for you to do so. |  | | |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 11:24 - Nov 18 with 294 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour's Asylum Crack Down on 21:24 - Nov 17 by DJR |
Where will it stop?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/nov/17/shabana-mahmood-puts-the-signs-
Shabana Mahmood puts the signs up: Britain is full. No blacks, no dogs, no Irish
We had always given sanctuary to those who needed it, she said, only now we would kick them out as soon as possible
Shabana Mahmood was in a determined frame of mind. It was time to get serious. No more Mr Nice Guy stuff when dealing with illegal immigrants. Not that there was anything like a legal immigrant as far as she was concerned. The only good migrant was a deported migrant. She laced up her Dr Martens. It was Kicking A Door In o’clock. Starting with her own.
Shabana Mahmood had been dozing in bed when Shabana Mahmood had burst into her room and pulled back the duvet. Shabana forced her eyes open, trying to make sense of this unexpected intrusion. She reached for her phone. Where was her security detail? Surely this must be a mistake.
“Right,” said Shabana. “Get yourself dressed in this orange jump-suit. And don’t mess about. You’re due at the processing centre within the hour. You’ll be on a plane home by the end of the day. If you can call where you’re going home.”
“But I am home,” said Shabana. “I was born here.”
“What’s that got to do with anything? That was then, this is now. People like you have been taking advantage of the system for years. So there are going to be some changes round here. I know we said the deportations wouldn’t be retrospective and we’d make you wait 20 years before you became British but that was because we were being too soft. We’re now going to increase that to 50 years. With surprise assessments every few weeks. And you’ve just missed your 5am one. Which means you are in breach of your visa regulations.”
“I need to call Keir Starmer,” Shabana sobbed. “He will vouch for me. There must have been some mistake.”
“No mistake,” Shabana snarled. “And don’t go bleating to Keir. He’s the one who signed off on all this.
“Can’t you just give me a few more days? Why don’t you go and deport David Lammy first? I can give you his address.”
“Nice try. But we’ve beaten you to it. There’s an ICE squad already on its way round to the justice secretary. This government is committed to fairness and equality. There will be no special cases or exemptions.”
“I am British,” Shabana cried, becoming ever more desperate. “I’ve got a British passport. I’ll get it for you.”
Shabana laughed. “I think you’ll find that you had a British passport. Oh, look. It expired at midnight last night. How sad. We can’t have you hanging around here when the country your parents emigrated from is perfectly safe. The thing is, we’ve decided you’ve overstayed your welcome. So off you go.”
“This can’t be right. I couldn’t be more British if I tried. I’ve integrated so well I’ve even become home secretary. I’m a Labour politician whom Reform are happy to call one of their own. I have a couple of Union Jacks to drape myself in when I appear on GB News. I’ll even sign something to say I hate immigrants.”
“Not good enough, I’m afraid,” said Shabana. “The thing is you still look foreign. So pack up your things. On second thoughts, don’t bother. Because we’re going to take all your possessions anyway. Everything from your phone, your jewellery to your house. Just so no one comes over here with the idea that they can come over here, contribute and make a life for themselves.” [Post edited 17 Nov 21:29]
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It never ceases to amaze me how the Grauniad's most hallowed laws on how middle aged white blokes can or should speak about or describe people of colour just get tossed into the bin when the poc in question is a politician they have decided not to like. He is just a few words short of calling her a coconut FFS. |  |
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