| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' 08:35 - Jul 16 with 7817 views | jasondozzell |
He was narked after Norway and rightly.
I think he felt he had to go 5 at the back because we were so passive and weren't able to follow direction. No bite in midfield after the goal.
It's a psychological thing. English players are weak mentally compared to international counterparts.
Anyway glad we can get back to Town and proper football.
[Post edited 16 Jul 8:36]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:39 - Jul 16 with 1060 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
You’re so bad at this, almost a parody. You should give up commenting on football. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:53 - Jul 16 with 1011 views | mellowblue |
I think to an extent you are right. Players lead a cossetted existence from under 13s onwards and maybe have it too soft. Maybe if more players came from a Vardy type footballing background they would have more bite and street fight mentality which the Argies have in bucket-loads.
Also I suspect there is some sort of disconnect between some of the players and Tuchel, I wonder how it will play out. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:55 - Jul 16 with 1012 views | TheMover |
Here's my two pennth.
The initial substitutions were completely wrong, should have been like for like. Kane has been almost invisible the last 2 games, I would have taken him off, both games at the hour mark, give him more recovery time.
Rashford for Gordon I could understand.
We had 12% possession after scoring, it became an offence vs defence training gave for Argentina.
The stats I would like to see, not just for last night, how many crosses/corners did we actually got through to an England player? Last night we scored from one but I cannot remember any others actally reaching their targets. Usually they hit the nearest opposition player about chest high.
I think Tuchel is to blame for last night through ludicrous substitutions and over playing the same players. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:58 - Jul 16 with 1001 views | Vaughan8 |
I don't agree.
He got lauded as a tactical genius when hanging on vs Mexico and Norway, but now it's the players fault?
Whether he thought the players could attack again or press anymore, but when he took Gordon off for Konsa, that was him making a choice, and that was to defend for 25 mins.
The guy having a free header from 6-8 yeards out at the end is the players "fault", Tuchel can't solve that, b ut his tactics put us under a lot of pressure.
I think I heard we had 7.5% possession after the Konsa for Gordon sub. is that correct or did I hear that wrong? | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:07 - Jul 16 with 966 views | jasondozzell |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:08 - Jul 16 with 963 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:58 - Jul 16 by Vaughan8 |
I don't agree.
He got lauded as a tactical genius when hanging on vs Mexico and Norway, but now it's the players fault?
Whether he thought the players could attack again or press anymore, but when he took Gordon off for Konsa, that was him making a choice, and that was to defend for 25 mins.
The guy having a free header from 6-8 yeards out at the end is the players "fault", Tuchel can't solve that, b ut his tactics put us under a lot of pressure.
I think I heard we had 7.5% possession after the Konsa for Gordon sub. is that correct or did I hear that wrong? |
Correct and 12% in aggregate after we scored.
I agree, totally a Tuchel choice and probably pound for pound that last 40 mins was the worst coaching performance I think I've ever seen when you consider his own experience and the quality of players at his disposal.
I always had the feeling with Gareth he never actually wanted us to sit deep, it just happened and he was a bit of a rabbit in headlights without the skill set to turn it around thereafter.
With TT last night, as you say, that was a "choice" and his post match comments left a very sour taste denying that was his instructions. Despite bringing on four defenders... | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:16 - Jul 16 with 950 views | mellowblue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:58 - Jul 16 by Vaughan8 |
I don't agree.
He got lauded as a tactical genius when hanging on vs Mexico and Norway, but now it's the players fault?
Whether he thought the players could attack again or press anymore, but when he took Gordon off for Konsa, that was him making a choice, and that was to defend for 25 mins.
The guy having a free header from 6-8 yeards out at the end is the players "fault", Tuchel can't solve that, b ut his tactics put us under a lot of pressure.
I think I heard we had 7.5% possession after the Konsa for Gordon sub. is that correct or did I hear that wrong? |
Tactical genius, crap, it is one thing hanging on with Allardyce/McCarthy level tactics with 10 mins to go, another thing with 25 mins. Timing was all wrong and he should have gone head to head and bolster midfield but with Henderson out and maybe Mainoo not trusted with no minutes playing, maybe squad was light there. Rice being off-colour and Bellingham not so dominant was unlucky. Also I would have had Rashford for Gordon or Kane, to at least to run around and give us the chance to counter attack and ease pressure when possible. Rashford has come off a pretty good season with Barca in that role. As for Toney, should not have bothered coming on and should not have made the squad . I would not pick anybody playing in the Saudi league. | | | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:21 - Jul 16 with 938 views | DJR |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:43 - Jul 16 by Mullet |
Bless you for talking like that’s an endorsement! |
People have different opinions, that's the beauty of life.  |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:31 - Jul 16 with 898 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:21 - Jul 16 by DJR |
People have different opinions, that's the beauty of life. |
Not all opinions should be treated equally though :) | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:21 - Jul 16 with 829 views | Blueschev |
I'm not really sure it was either camps fault. For the last 20 minutes the players looked completely knackered against the world champions. Not surprising given that they had travelled 14000 miles during the tournament. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:32 - Jul 16 with 811 views | SWLondonBlue93 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:07 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell |
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Cool. Former players from many nations have come out and said the substitutions and tactics were ridiculous. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:37 - Jul 16 with 800 views | Trequartista |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 13:07 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell |
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Sure the players were exhausted - but these were the midfielders and forwards, defenders don't really get exhausted in the same way. So it was on the manager to bring on midfielders and forwards that weren't exhausted. Instead he brought on more defenders. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:52 - Jul 16 with 787 views | Dubtractor |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:37 - Jul 16 by Trequartista |
Sure the players were exhausted - but these were the midfielders and forwards, defenders don't really get exhausted in the same way. So it was on the manager to bring on midfielders and forwards that weren't exhausted. Instead he brought on more defenders. |
Exactly. Tuchel's response to us going into our shell was to encourage us further in to it.
And one twitter account agreeing with the OP is great, but there will be thousands arguing the opposite point. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:10 - Jul 16 with 744 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
I think even Tuchel himself knew he got it wrong. His first interview after the final whistle he went straight onto the defensive talking about "millions of managers out there" who think they could do better, before he'd have even seen the nature of any criticism.
That, to me, says he knew it was down to his choices.
Also, I think the players just aren't good enough. They did well enough up until the goal, closing Argentina down quickly. But that high press was always going to knacker them out, so Argentina just waited... and then started picking us off when we were running on fumes. Like for like subs would've helped some of that, but he threw on a load of defenders and sat back instead. Even Big Mick would've called that "bonkers". |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:13 - Jul 16 with 735 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 14:52 - Jul 16 by Dubtractor |
Exactly. Tuchel's response to us going into our shell was to encourage us further in to it.
And one twitter account agreeing with the OP is great, but there will be thousands arguing the opposite point. |
Yep - he doubled down on what was going wrong.
Took our entire midfield off, he ignored the blueprint of how we actually scored and it was what they were scared of.
He's let the players and fans down in our biggest moment. | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:15 - Jul 16 with 733 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:10 - Jul 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I think even Tuchel himself knew he got it wrong. His first interview after the final whistle he went straight onto the defensive talking about "millions of managers out there" who think they could do better, before he'd have even seen the nature of any criticism.
That, to me, says he knew it was down to his choices.
Also, I think the players just aren't good enough. They did well enough up until the goal, closing Argentina down quickly. But that high press was always going to knacker them out, so Argentina just waited... and then started picking us off when we were running on fumes. Like for like subs would've helped some of that, but he threw on a load of defenders and sat back instead. Even Big Mick would've called that "bonkers". |
Your last paragraph has nothing to do with whether the players were good enough or not.
We were plenty good enough for 60 minutes and sure we tired, as you’d expect but that’s why you have an elite level coach and 20+ players in a squad.
Also, how many of the Argentine players would get in our team? The goalkeeper and Messi. Players were plenty good enough, how we lost yesterday has nothing to do with the ability of them or otherwise. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:19 - Jul 16 with 727 views | hype313 |
When DaveU is giving you an upvote, you know you've lost the argument. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:27 - Jul 16 with 698 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:13 - Jul 16 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Yep - he doubled down on what was going wrong.
Took our entire midfield off, he ignored the blueprint of how we actually scored and it was what they were scared of.
He's let the players and fans down in our biggest moment. |
And then tried gaslight everyone with his post match remarks.
Really unedifying all round. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:27 - Jul 16 with 694 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:15 - Jul 16 by nrb1985 |
Your last paragraph has nothing to do with whether the players were good enough or not.
We were plenty good enough for 60 minutes and sure we tired, as you’d expect but that’s why you have an elite level coach and 20+ players in a squad.
Also, how many of the Argentine players would get in our team? The goalkeeper and Messi. Players were plenty good enough, how we lost yesterday has nothing to do with the ability of them or otherwise. |
Disagree. Running about a lot only gets you so far. We closed them down but we created very little of note ourselves.
Saying only Messi and the keeper would get in our team is laughable. They were better than us all over the pitch, and once running about stopped working (because we were knackered) it told. Messi didn't send all those crosses in, force the saves, hit the post and score the goals. | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:34 - Jul 16 with 664 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:27 - Jul 16 by nrb1985 |
And then tried gaslight everyone with his post match remarks.
Really unedifying all round. |
It's not like we were even defending well, completely disrupted chaos.
The idea that Burn was going to be a similar answer to the Mexicans aimlessly throwing a few balls into the box, would be the same against the holders and Messi in space is just unfathomable [Post edited 16 Jul 15:40]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:58 - Jul 16 with 613 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:27 - Jul 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Disagree. Running about a lot only gets you so far. We closed them down but we created very little of note ourselves.
Saying only Messi and the keeper would get in our team is laughable. They were better than us all over the pitch, and once running about stopped working (because we were knackered) it told. Messi didn't send all those crosses in, force the saves, hit the post and score the goals. |
Who else would start for us from the two lineups?
Nobody is disagreeing they deserved to win last night. I’m disagreeing fundamentally with your assessment the players weren’t good enough. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 17:07 - Jul 16 with 534 views | jasondozzell |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:27 - Jul 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Disagree. Running about a lot only gets you so far. We closed them down but we created very little of note ourselves.
Saying only Messi and the keeper would get in our team is laughable. They were better than us all over the pitch, and once running about stopped working (because we were knackered) it told. Messi didn't send all those crosses in, force the saves, hit the post and score the goals. |
I agree. Argentina had more technical ability in their side. They stayed calm and kept playing. We did not.
We collapsed immediately after our goal and not when Tuchel made the subs.
We couldn't live with their pressure.
I think at 1-0 up you could almost see us shrink because no one wanted to be the one to screw it up.
Also feel the first half has been ignored. They did a number on us and they controlled the tempo.
We lacked belief and technical ability when we needed it. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 18:22 - Jul 16 with 475 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 15:58 - Jul 16 by nrb1985 |
Who else would start for us from the two lineups?
Nobody is disagreeing they deserved to win last night. I’m disagreeing fundamentally with your assessment the players weren’t good enough. |
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Apart from a few individual bits of brilliance, I don't think we've looked that good throughout the tournament. We scraped by Congo, making their first appearance at a world cup for 52 years, due to Kane. Were held 0-0 by Ghana.
All the knockout wins were by the odd goal.
The players aren't good enough, IMO, versus the very top teams.
We don't have a Yamal, or Mbappe, or Messi. These types of players. We're neat and tidy and work hard, but there's not a huge amount of flair.
Argentina, whilst on the wane, were still well ahead of us in every department. You could probably swap any of their team with their equivalents in our team. | |
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