| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension 18:37 - Sep 1 with 9170 views | RIPbobby |
Makes you sick that he does not see out his term and causes another £200k+ bi election. Total scum. Clearly did not care for the union. Takes the money and runs. |  | | |  |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 13:35 - Sep 2 with 959 views | Benters |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 11:43 - Sep 2 by Swansea_Blue |
I was replying to DJR and haven’t gone hard on Benters at all. My one and only reply to Benters was to politely point out that Reform don’t represent change. I don’t see what’s wrong with that 🤷♂️ [Post edited 2 Sep 11:50]
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You can say what you like buh I couldn’t care less.
Ashton In. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 13:39 - Sep 2 with 954 views | Benters |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 10:08 - Sep 2 by ArnoldMoorhen |
You could go a bit easier on Benters at the moment. He is stuck at home recovering from major surgery and unable to do the things he loves, and being a lot more civil than I would manage under those circumstances. |
That’s a very kind thing for you to say,but there’s no need.
The LBF and LAS are like pain killers to me.
But thank you for the kindness shown.
BB.
TGM. | |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:16 - Sep 2 with 910 views | balcombeblue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 13:27 - Sep 2 by DJR |
A few observations.
1. My British friend in Paris (whom I am due to meet this week) speaks highly of French public services. He is now retired but it is the state of the NHS in particular which means he would never return to this country.
2. You are right about what the government stood on, and a rise would in any event fly in the face of Burnham's pledge on the cost of living.
3. There was no mandate because the media (including the BBC) accepted without question the coalition narrative that the recession in the UK was caused by Labour government overspending, rather than being a worldwide consequence of the banking crisis caused by sub-prime loans in the US and linked derivatives. [Post edited 2 Sep 13:34]
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As always, some considered points in your post.
1. Healthcare is a very tricky comparison to make. I have some inside track due to my French partner. The French system does have very different outcomes by social group, which is what we get in the UK I suppose. I would be supportive of moving to a system like the French, whereby better off people pay at the point of consumption, but could you imagine how politically unpalatable that would be? Better off people get more access and more choice in France, again I doubt that would wash, particularly on the left.
3. Labour did borrow to spend before the crash, but that didn't cause the crash. I would argue that it led to sustained borrowing which continued way into the next parliament. I made the point in a post 3 weeks or so ago. Quickly check out a graph of UK/French/German growth from 1990-2025. It really is all much of a muchness. But the UK did a little better than France and Germany under the coalition and then it was all much of a muchness again after Brexit.
The political narratives of 'Tory austerity caused slow growth' or 'Labour overspent' are generally rubbish. What is true now though is that spending levels are not sustainable. |  | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:30 - Sep 2 with 881 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:16 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
As always, some considered points in your post.
1. Healthcare is a very tricky comparison to make. I have some inside track due to my French partner. The French system does have very different outcomes by social group, which is what we get in the UK I suppose. I would be supportive of moving to a system like the French, whereby better off people pay at the point of consumption, but could you imagine how politically unpalatable that would be? Better off people get more access and more choice in France, again I doubt that would wash, particularly on the left.
3. Labour did borrow to spend before the crash, but that didn't cause the crash. I would argue that it led to sustained borrowing which continued way into the next parliament. I made the point in a post 3 weeks or so ago. Quickly check out a graph of UK/French/German growth from 1990-2025. It really is all much of a muchness. But the UK did a little better than France and Germany under the coalition and then it was all much of a muchness again after Brexit.
The political narratives of 'Tory austerity caused slow growth' or 'Labour overspent' are generally rubbish. What is true now though is that spending levels are not sustainable. |
Your conclusions do not follow.
Spending now is unsustainable but that is a demographic issue which we need to acknowledge and work with. The economic impact of services cut to the bone already is significant and is the responsibility of prior administrations and austerity. Spending is necessary so we need to find ways of sustaining it. Throwing in the towel will make it all worse. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:47 - Sep 2 with 851 views | bartyg |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:16 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
As always, some considered points in your post.
1. Healthcare is a very tricky comparison to make. I have some inside track due to my French partner. The French system does have very different outcomes by social group, which is what we get in the UK I suppose. I would be supportive of moving to a system like the French, whereby better off people pay at the point of consumption, but could you imagine how politically unpalatable that would be? Better off people get more access and more choice in France, again I doubt that would wash, particularly on the left.
3. Labour did borrow to spend before the crash, but that didn't cause the crash. I would argue that it led to sustained borrowing which continued way into the next parliament. I made the point in a post 3 weeks or so ago. Quickly check out a graph of UK/French/German growth from 1990-2025. It really is all much of a muchness. But the UK did a little better than France and Germany under the coalition and then it was all much of a muchness again after Brexit.
The political narratives of 'Tory austerity caused slow growth' or 'Labour overspent' are generally rubbish. What is true now though is that spending levels are not sustainable. |
What did we gain from austerity? Reducing spending gave us short term growth, but there was no long term vision. The best time for us to borrow to invest was 15 years ago, the second best time is now. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:52 - Sep 2 with 828 views | balcombeblue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:47 - Sep 2 by bartyg |
What did we gain from austerity? Reducing spending gave us short term growth, but there was no long term vision. The best time for us to borrow to invest was 15 years ago, the second best time is now. |
We have no room for further borrowing now. There is very little confidence from lenders that governments won't default, hence the rising cost. | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:53 - Sep 2 with 826 views | balcombeblue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:30 - Sep 2 by redrickstuhaart |
Your conclusions do not follow.
Spending now is unsustainable but that is a demographic issue which we need to acknowledge and work with. The economic impact of services cut to the bone already is significant and is the responsibility of prior administrations and austerity. Spending is necessary so we need to find ways of sustaining it. Throwing in the towel will make it all worse. |
Which conclusions don't follow?
You can't divorce the reality of the cost of borrowing against how much you want to spend. | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:21 - Sep 2 with 783 views | bartyg |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:52 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
We have no room for further borrowing now. There is very little confidence from lenders that governments won't default, hence the rising cost. |
I guess we'll all just die then. | |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:34 - Sep 2 with 743 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:53 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
Which conclusions don't follow?
You can't divorce the reality of the cost of borrowing against how much you want to spend. |
Read what I wrote. Spending is necessary so we must sustain it. The conclusion that it isn't sustainable ignores that and is plainly not correct. We not only can but should sustain it. The key is how we do so. Cutting will make things worse not better. | |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:34 - Sep 2 with 742 views | StokieBlue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:52 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
We have no room for further borrowing now. There is very little confidence from lenders that governments won't default, hence the rising cost. |
Increased borrowing costs are a function of risk and general economic conditions but I don't see any specific evidence that people think large economies are close to defaulting.
In fact the current CDS spread for the UK is below where it was earlier in the year by ~15%.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:45 - Sep 2 with 712 views | balcombeblue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:34 - Sep 2 by redrickstuhaart |
Read what I wrote. Spending is necessary so we must sustain it. The conclusion that it isn't sustainable ignores that and is plainly not correct. We not only can but should sustain it. The key is how we do so. Cutting will make things worse not better. |
I did read it. I just couldn't interpret it. Must be a bit thick.
Your statement about sustainable v necessary is a logical fallacy. Just because something is necessary doesn't mean it's sustainable. The government were right in 2024 that growth is a means of getting out of the doom loop. But they have no plan for growth. Further nationalisation will counteract that even further. | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:55 - Sep 2 with 689 views | balcombeblue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:34 - Sep 2 by StokieBlue |
Increased borrowing costs are a function of risk and general economic conditions but I don't see any specific evidence that people think large economies are close to defaulting.
In fact the current CDS spread for the UK is below where it was earlier in the year by ~15%.
SB |
Agreed on defaulting, we can always print money to get ourselves out of a default situation. Unlike the Eurozone!
The default percentage is something like a 1 in 200 scenario, but it's how this changes with perception that's important. That risk will rise, hence will the cost of borrowing, if the gilt market considers the risk to rise.
the CDS jumped in March, but has been coming since. Although overall it's a very small probability. | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 16:04 - Sep 2 with 677 views | NthQldITFC |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 11:43 - Sep 2 by Swansea_Blue |
I was replying to DJR and haven’t gone hard on Benters at all. My one and only reply to Benters was to politely point out that Reform don’t represent change. I don’t see what’s wrong with that 🤷♂️ [Post edited 2 Sep 11:50]
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'My one and only reply to Benters was to politely point out that Reform don’t represent change' - unless you call £5,000,000 loose change, I suppose.
Farage is a con man. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 16:12 - Sep 2 with 658 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 15:45 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
I did read it. I just couldn't interpret it. Must be a bit thick.
Your statement about sustainable v necessary is a logical fallacy. Just because something is necessary doesn't mean it's sustainable. The government were right in 2024 that growth is a means of getting out of the doom loop. But they have no plan for growth. Further nationalisation will counteract that even further. |
Deary me. The logical fallacy is yours. If it is necessary we must find ways to sustain it. Your conclusion was that because there is limited growth we can't sustain it. But we can,. You just don't like the idea of taxes paying for services in an ageing population.
You concluded that because there is insufficient funds the only answer is to cut. Which is not true. | |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 16:28 - Sep 2 with 624 views | balcombeblue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 16:12 - Sep 2 by redrickstuhaart |
Deary me. The logical fallacy is yours. If it is necessary we must find ways to sustain it. Your conclusion was that because there is limited growth we can't sustain it. But we can,. You just don't like the idea of taxes paying for services in an ageing population.
You concluded that because there is insufficient funds the only answer is to cut. Which is not true. |
If really isn't. Rising cost of borrowing can't be sustained without action.
You've bypassed logic by attacking me Ad Hominem (the 'you don't like taxes bit'), you've then straw manned my argument by telling me my conclusion! I said borrowing will become increasingly unsustainable, which is what the markets are saying.
I didn't explicitly say we should cut, although there is only one other lever in a low growth economy, so good luck with that one.
I'm slightly surprised you didn't bung in something about Farage! | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:00 - Sep 2 with 587 views | Pendejo |
At least he lasted more than 49 days, & she's still getting PM pension...
Starmer's party turned on him, why should he hang around?
Farage on the other hand deliberately stalled a HoC inquiry for the sake of one big publicity stunt, all publicity is good publicity, even if your only "credible" opponent is a bod in a bin costume. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:05 - Sep 2 with 578 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 16:28 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
If really isn't. Rising cost of borrowing can't be sustained without action.
You've bypassed logic by attacking me Ad Hominem (the 'you don't like taxes bit'), you've then straw manned my argument by telling me my conclusion! I said borrowing will become increasingly unsustainable, which is what the markets are saying.
I didn't explicitly say we should cut, although there is only one other lever in a low growth economy, so good luck with that one.
I'm slightly surprised you didn't bung in something about Farage! |
Someone thinks they know about fallacies and have the buzzwords to hand, but lacks the insight to apply them well...
The discussion wasn't about rising cost of borrowing. It was about spending. So you have equivocated to avoid the point I made.
Secondly, your "ad hominem" is not one because it is not attacking you as a person to damage the argument, but a proposed reason for your failure to consider the point properly (and subsequent fallacious conclusions). It is directly relevant to the argument, not a personal attack separate form them.
Thirdly you claim a straw man when you clearly claimed and concluded that current spending was not sustainable (ergo current spending must be reduced). The point I make for the third time, is that it IS sustainable, but will require funding, probably via taxes. Realistically, given the demographics, that is a new reality we will need to adjust to. | |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:10 - Sep 2 with 568 views | SchancheITFC |
Absolutely agree | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:17 - Sep 2 with 555 views | flykickingbybgunn |
I would just like to make what I hope will be taken as a non political point.
If an MP wants to resign their seat and cause a by-election then they should pay the cost.
Clearly that should not apply to ill health etc.
Also if an MP moves to another party, that should cause a by-election too. |  | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:22 - Sep 2 with 543 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 14:16 - Sep 2 by balcombeblue |
As always, some considered points in your post.
1. Healthcare is a very tricky comparison to make. I have some inside track due to my French partner. The French system does have very different outcomes by social group, which is what we get in the UK I suppose. I would be supportive of moving to a system like the French, whereby better off people pay at the point of consumption, but could you imagine how politically unpalatable that would be? Better off people get more access and more choice in France, again I doubt that would wash, particularly on the left.
3. Labour did borrow to spend before the crash, but that didn't cause the crash. I would argue that it led to sustained borrowing which continued way into the next parliament. I made the point in a post 3 weeks or so ago. Quickly check out a graph of UK/French/German growth from 1990-2025. It really is all much of a muchness. But the UK did a little better than France and Germany under the coalition and then it was all much of a muchness again after Brexit.
The political narratives of 'Tory austerity caused slow growth' or 'Labour overspent' are generally rubbish. What is true now though is that spending levels are not sustainable. |
Re your excellent points re health care. I think we have defaulted to a kind of French system. NHS dentistry barely exists, such that 60% of UK adults have not used the system in 2 years. Going private for certain surgical procedures is now the norm for anyone who can afford, e.g. replacements knees, hips etc. Private GP surgeries are becoming more prevalent as the free sector us using more & more unqualified physicians / assistants. In work, a lot of people have access to private health care. | | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:23 - Sep 2 with 528 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 11:26 - Sep 2 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Also important to note:
Brazil was absolutely key to Britain retaking the Falkland Islands. Maintaining positive military co-operation with Rio is a strategic move.
Not my priority, but there are always multiple factors at play in any of these international deals. |
You're confusing brazil with Chile. Brazil officially declared neutrality. Brazil even impounded one of our bombers when it ran out of fuel and forced to land in Rio. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:27 - Sep 2 with 520 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 10:08 - Sep 2 by ArnoldMoorhen |
You could go a bit easier on Benters at the moment. He is stuck at home recovering from major surgery and unable to do the things he loves, and being a lot more civil than I would manage under those circumstances. |
2 downvotes for a post asking for civillity. | |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:34 - Sep 2 with 504 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:27 - Sep 2 by GlasgowBlue |
2 downvotes for a post asking for civillity. |
The shoot the refugees coming through the tunnel type civility? |  | | |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:41 - Sep 2 with 483 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:34 - Sep 2 by reusersfreekicks |
The shoot the refugees coming through the tunnel type civility? |
.. which was a wind-up posted about 15 years ago, if not more. |  |
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| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:58 - Sep 2 with 466 views | Ryorry |
| Starmer quitting as an MP now he has his PM pension on 17:17 - Sep 2 by flykickingbybgunn |
I would just like to make what I hope will be taken as a non political point.
If an MP wants to resign their seat and cause a by-election then they should pay the cost.
Clearly that should not apply to ill health etc.
Also if an MP moves to another party, that should cause a by-election too. |
Reading this & some of the replies on the thread, I was about to point out that none of us knows the state of KS' health.
For all anybody on here knows, he could be suffering from burnout or anything else, but dutifully chose to stay in place until a suitable time for a break occurred.
Reminds me of the disrespect some on here showed to KM when he chose to take a break, arrogantly ascribing all sorts of motives to him which they couldn't possibly have known. | |
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