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So I know Burnham is against the move to Tier 3 status due to the financial help not being enough but he's gone really strong on it, virtually driving a north/south wedge on the issue. He today cited decreasing cases which is true (490 per 100k down from 540) but they are still very high (London is on about 120) and it's also quite a simplistic way of looking at things given unknown numbers of tests and people not testing.
I spent a couple of weeks in Manchester up until the other day visiting a friend and there’s a fair few people up there that believe that if Manchester was London, there’s no way the government would be so strong on a lockdown.
Some good points were made tbf but I can’t remember a good deal of it.
I spent a couple of weeks in Manchester up until the other day visiting a friend and there’s a fair few people up there that believe that if Manchester was London, there’s no way the government would be so strong on a lockdown.
Some good points were made tbf but I can’t remember a good deal of it.
Manchester has over 3 times as many cases per 100,000.
I am sure that if London was on 500 cases then Khan would be pushing for tier 3 and I am sure it would be implemented.
SB
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:54 - Oct 18 with 3093 views
I spent a couple of weeks in Manchester up until the other day visiting a friend and there’s a fair few people up there that believe that if Manchester was London, there’s no way the government would be so strong on a lockdown.
Some good points were made tbf but I can’t remember a good deal of it.
The big problem is that cases are rising everywhere, my mate in Cambridge said that hospital admissions are rising fast and Cambridge will soon be at tier 2, a national lock down will stop Cambridge going into tier 3. Why wait until an area is in deep poo before taking action? Prevention is better than cure.
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:54 - Oct 18 with 3086 views
Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:54 - Oct 18 by vapour_trail
I know you haven’t.
The govt are going large on burnham though, so better not to play their tune. It’s Manchester et al vs Johnson’s govt. not burnham.
They’re spinning it to make it easier to apportion blame.
The situation up there is of course, critical.
Fair enough, I've not been following as closely as some others I assume.
Still, why would the political body of the city be against tier 3 given the situation which you've described as critical?
I know there are financial issues but surely they can continue to be sorted out over the next day or two after moving up?
I do agree in principle with them that anyone forced to close due to tier 3 should be fully compensated - they are closing for the benefit of the country as a whole.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:57 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue
Fair enough, I've not been following as closely as some others I assume.
Still, why would the political body of the city be against tier 3 given the situation which you've described as critical?
I know there are financial issues but surely they can continue to be sorted out over the next day or two after moving up?
I do agree in principle with them that anyone forced to close due to tier 3 should be fully compensated - they are closing for the benefit of the country as a whole.
SB
It appears to be entirely financial.
Don’t know about you but if I was negotiating with this government, I’d be taking nothing for granted. They’re fundamentally dishonest with complete disdain for the rule of law.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:57 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue
Fair enough, I've not been following as closely as some others I assume.
Still, why would the political body of the city be against tier 3 given the situation which you've described as critical?
I know there are financial issues but surely they can continue to be sorted out over the next day or two after moving up?
I do agree in principle with them that anyone forced to close due to tier 3 should be fully compensated - they are closing for the benefit of the country as a whole.
SB
I've always liked Burnham but I have been a bit bemused by his stance on this.
I've yet to read his reasoning though tbf and can only assume he is acting under some local pressure.
It wouldn't be my take on it as things stand and it seems rather irresponsible. I don't know what back-up they have in that area in the way of the Nightingale set up.
Edit: When the people who have to pick up the pieces come out and say things like this then it's wise to at listen: "A senior doctor in Manchester said the city’s rapid rise in Covid patients, and expectations the increase will continue as winter brings its usual payload of breathing problems, was “terrifying”.
I see Burnham's point about the lack of support forthcoming and he's right if trade is to be turned away then it's imperative the Government steps up. It cannot be both ways.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 21:00 - Oct 18 by vapour_trail
It appears to be entirely financial.
Don’t know about you but if I was negotiating with this government, I’d be taking nothing for granted. They’re fundamentally dishonest with complete disdain for the rule of law.
Certainly can't argue with your last sentence but I just think it can be worked out over the next week after tier 3 is imposed.
If not then that 82% capacity is going to be 100% capacity before they have it agreed and this stance is going to affect their fellow Mancunians adversely.
SB
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 21:15 - Oct 18 with 3009 views
Burnham has been disrespected and smeared by this government long before this pandemic. There is a very clear bot/troll campaign similar to Khan but not based on the same stereotype quite.
Throughout it he's found out information from the media, not before it. He's been shut out. Today he's made some very eloquent points and one of them is about the lopsided manner in which the North is being treated. When London was at a higher point, we got national measures and support, but not now.
It might be because the money has run out, but he's gone for very clever rhetoric towards th Thatcher era and is playing well to people who feel that the Tories simply can't be trusted. That data is being manipulated across the country to make it appear better and the focus of this is "down south" in their seats.
Whatever happens, this is going to split the country massively if Boris doesn't finally start leading. I actually think Burnham is incredibly impressive and may one day have a shot at PM, but this is beyond bold and maybe signifies the desperation of what's happening.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 21:10 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue
Certainly can't argue with your last sentence but I just think it can be worked out over the next week after tier 3 is imposed.
If not then that 82% capacity is going to be 100% capacity before they have it agreed and this stance is going to affect their fellow Mancunians adversely.
SB
Appreciate that, but I only see one side genuinely fighting for the residents of the north west.
I wouldn’t sign up to anything with this administration that wasn’t guaranteed. They’re con men.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:57 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue
Fair enough, I've not been following as closely as some others I assume.
Still, why would the political body of the city be against tier 3 given the situation which you've described as critical?
I know there are financial issues but surely they can continue to be sorted out over the next day or two after moving up?
I do agree in principle with them that anyone forced to close due to tier 3 should be fully compensated - they are closing for the benefit of the country as a whole.
SB
No doubt part of it is financial but it’s also a reaction to this back of a fag packet approach from the government.
Even the CMO stood at a press conference and said tier 3 alone won’t work. The North is being asked/forced to effectively trial this approach, that doesn’t seem to be evidence based in any way, and sacrifice their businesses and economy in the process as a result of the Government’s refusal to support properly.
Let’s not forget that many of us here have been living under local restrictions for months already and they haven’t worked.
There is a strong suspicion that we will be under tier 3 indefinitely and with no clarity about how/when to move out of it. I’m sure if the cases were anything like at this level down south then a national lockdown would be in place (and lifted again when appropriate for London, as happened first time).
I’m not at all sure Burnham has this right but the frustration up here runs deep and is exacerbated by an obvious and complete lack of trust in anything this government says or does.
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 09:25 - Oct 19 with 2572 views
He's a self-serving chancer seizing an open goal to raise his profile.... but he does have a point...and it's a bandwagon that local tories have juped on too.
If you read the Grauniad a bit further down you'll find the globa anaysis of healthcare stats.
The UK comes out worst in Europe for life expectancy, worst for life expectancy whilst living with an unpleasant disease and kept off bottom spot by Malta for child mortality. In just about every measurable parameter the UK is worst in Europe for health.... which kind of explains why Covid was such a big hitter in the UK - and is smiting the North again.
And no lockdown will help against the underlying reasons for high covid incidence and mortality
Manchester tier 3 issues on 20:57 - Oct 18 by StokieBlue
Fair enough, I've not been following as closely as some others I assume.
Still, why would the political body of the city be against tier 3 given the situation which you've described as critical?
I know there are financial issues but surely they can continue to be sorted out over the next day or two after moving up?
I do agree in principle with them that anyone forced to close due to tier 3 should be fully compensated - they are closing for the benefit of the country as a whole.
SB
Tier 3 is a sticking plaster approach, symptomatic of this governments piecemeal, make it up as you go along, approach to covid.
Andy Burnham, and the rest of the Manchester politicians are against it for a number of reasons.
1. The governments own health officials have said it won't work 2. Looking after public health isn't just avoiding covid, its about managing covid, whilst still making sure people have enough to live. 3. If we go into tier 3 - how are we getting out? What comes next?
This government hates having it pointed out to them when they do something without a plan - the problem is, that is pretty much everything they do. They've been absolutely useless at engaging with local government, who are probably in the best position to manage local outbreaks, and the locals have had enough. Its not just about money - its about doing something that will work, rather than something the latest focus group came up with.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 10:37 - Oct 19 by SaleAway
Tier 3 is a sticking plaster approach, symptomatic of this governments piecemeal, make it up as you go along, approach to covid.
Andy Burnham, and the rest of the Manchester politicians are against it for a number of reasons.
1. The governments own health officials have said it won't work 2. Looking after public health isn't just avoiding covid, its about managing covid, whilst still making sure people have enough to live. 3. If we go into tier 3 - how are we getting out? What comes next?
This government hates having it pointed out to them when they do something without a plan - the problem is, that is pretty much everything they do. They've been absolutely useless at engaging with local government, who are probably in the best position to manage local outbreaks, and the locals have had enough. Its not just about money - its about doing something that will work, rather than something the latest focus group came up with.
[Post edited 19 Oct 2020 10:40]
One thing that I don’t really comprehend is he keeps saying they want the same Furlough conditions to apply. Surely had they moved to Tier 3 by now they would have had 2 weeks on that basis, which may have been sufficient to get a grip. Seems strange that Labour nationally are calling for a 2 week circuit breaker, which will have more strict controls, but Burnham seems resistant to a lower level of imposition.
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 11:52 - Oct 19 with 2434 views
Manchester tier 3 issues on 11:42 - Oct 19 by longtimefan
One thing that I don’t really comprehend is he keeps saying they want the same Furlough conditions to apply. Surely had they moved to Tier 3 by now they would have had 2 weeks on that basis, which may have been sufficient to get a grip. Seems strange that Labour nationally are calling for a 2 week circuit breaker, which will have more strict controls, but Burnham seems resistant to a lower level of imposition.
The point is that no one thinks that tier 3 will solve the problems... whereas a circuit breaker is probably more likely to have an effect.
Essentially, Manchester is saying that we should do the circuit breaker first, with proper support... rather than subjecting everyone to tier 3 for some indeterminate amount of time, until government pivots again, and puts the circuit breaker into action once they realise tier 3 has not had the effect that they want.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 11:52 - Oct 19 by SaleAway
The point is that no one thinks that tier 3 will solve the problems... whereas a circuit breaker is probably more likely to have an effect.
Essentially, Manchester is saying that we should do the circuit breaker first, with proper support... rather than subjecting everyone to tier 3 for some indeterminate amount of time, until government pivots again, and puts the circuit breaker into action once they realise tier 3 has not had the effect that they want.
I find it difficult to understand Burnham’s stance. He has just said , on Sky, he isn’t going to roll over for a Cheque.
It is beginning to look, to me, that the only difference between the Liverpool and Manchester Mayors is one of them has seen a brother die from COVID, the other hasn’t.
Surely the number one priority is to curb the spread of the virus and protect the public.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 21:00 - Oct 18 by vapour_trail
It appears to be entirely financial.
Don’t know about you but if I was negotiating with this government, I’d be taking nothing for granted. They’re fundamentally dishonest with complete disdain for the rule of law.
Burnham has turned down an extra £100m saying it isn’t about the money now.
A dangerous stand off that will just lead to people dying because both sides want to appear to have ‘won’
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 14:43 - Oct 19 with 2289 views
Manchester tier 3 issues on 13:16 - Oct 19 by Pinewoodblue
I find it difficult to understand Burnham’s stance. He has just said , on Sky, he isn’t going to roll over for a Cheque.
It is beginning to look, to me, that the only difference between the Liverpool and Manchester Mayors is one of them has seen a brother die from COVID, the other hasn’t.
Surely the number one priority is to curb the spread of the virus and protect the public.
2 things here.
1. the peak in Manchester has passed
2. tier 3 restrictions won't address the main issues, which are school, university and in-home transmissions.
Manchester tier 3 issues on 14:43 - Oct 19 by SaleAway
2 things here.
1. the peak in Manchester has passed
2. tier 3 restrictions won't address the main issues, which are school, university and in-home transmissions.
If the peak has past why are the hospitals about to run out of capacity (as per the original link)?
That chart is also skewed by university positives a few weeks ago, it would be interesting to see the graph without that factored in.
As an aside and solely playing devils advocate:
If it's not right to impose tier 3 on Manchester as is Burnham's position how is it right that he insists on imposing a lockdown on the country which would include places like Suffolk which has less than 1/10th the cases of Manchester?
For the record I am not saying he is wrong, I think we will go for a national lockdown but doesn't Suffolk then become the next Manchester complaining about restrictions?
The worry is that the standoff will mean more people in hospitals which will mean they reach capacity and then people start dying because the NHS is stretched.
SB
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Manchester tier 3 issues on 15:00 - Oct 19 with 2259 views
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