| Cat among the pigeons 19:55 - Jul 4 with 2573 views | GlasgowBlue |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 07:19 - Jul 5 with 1791 views | gazzer1999 |
Well this post aged well, no responses? I wonder why? |  | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:22 - Jul 5 with 1777 views | itfcjoe |
It’s the only play, they can now start attacking the Tories on how badly Brexit is going without the comeback |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 07:24 - Jul 5 with 1766 views | Dubtractor |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:19 - Jul 5 by gazzer1999 |
Well this post aged well, no responses? I wonder why? |
I think probably because the media had been briefing on this all day, so by the time he announced it, it wasn't news at all.
I don't agree with the approach necessarily, but can understand it. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 07:27 - Jul 5 with 1752 views | gazzer1999 |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:22 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
It’s the only play, they can now start attacking the Tories on how badly Brexit is going without the comeback |
And there was me thinking it was to appease the red wall voters who voted for Brexit. | | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:28 - Jul 5 with 1739 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
The problem with using focus groups to set your agenda is that you end up being constantly behind the curve! I'm not sure he believes anything. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 07:46 - Jul 5 with 1671 views | Churchman |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:24 - Jul 5 by Dubtractor |
I think probably because the media had been briefing on this all day, so by the time he announced it, it wasn't news at all.
I don't agree with the approach necessarily, but can understand it. |
I understand what he is saying and actually agree with the principles of it. The problem I have is the how do you move things forward bit.
It requires willingness on both sides to do that. Once the current government is kicked out, I suspect and hope the hostility and rhetoric will ease. I hope so because the current state of hostilities is beneficial to nobody. |  | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:49 - Jul 5 with 1628 views | Lord_Lucan |
It's a good strategy
"Make Brexit Work"
He can win some Brexiters back with this - he just needs to keep repeating it and make it a brain worm.
Make Brexit work
Make Brexit work. [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 7:56]
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| Cat among the pigeons on 07:55 - Jul 5 with 1605 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:46 - Jul 5 by Churchman |
I understand what he is saying and actually agree with the principles of it. The problem I have is the how do you move things forward bit.
It requires willingness on both sides to do that. Once the current government is kicked out, I suspect and hope the hostility and rhetoric will ease. I hope so because the current state of hostilities is beneficial to nobody. |
I guess it’s more coherent that’s his original policy of negotiating a deal, then voting against the deal that he negotiated…
Hopefully the Lib Dems will campaign for rejoining the single market. |  | | |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 07:58 - Jul 5 with 1586 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:55 - Jul 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I guess it’s more coherent that’s his original policy of negotiating a deal, then voting against the deal that he negotiated…
Hopefully the Lib Dems will campaign for rejoining the single market. |
.......And that's how the Lib Dems have to play it - solid campaign for rejoining.
We then have clear choices. | |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 08:02 - Jul 5 with 1573 views | Steve_M |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:22 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
It’s the only play, they can now start attacking the Tories on how badly Brexit is going without the comeback |
Probably but I do wish that Labour could be bolder on pointing out how the specific form of Brexit chosen by Johnson and the ERG is the most damaging one for the country.
I suppose the unsaid part is about not attempting to rejoin the Single Market or Customs Union within the next Parliament; over time anything is possible. More important is to move the EU debate on to one about managing our ongoing relationship with the enormous trading bloc on our doorstep. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 08:16 - Jul 5 with 1474 views | Keno |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:58 - Jul 5 by Lord_Lucan |
.......And that's how the Lib Dems have to play it - solid campaign for rejoining.
We then have clear choices. |
surely the Lib Dems cant come up with a worse position than the last general election [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 8:16]
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| Cat among the pigeons on 08:17 - Jul 5 with 1466 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:58 - Jul 5 by Lord_Lucan |
.......And that's how the Lib Dems have to play it - solid campaign for rejoining.
We then have clear choices. |
But tactical voting! Tory win incoming! | |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 08:25 - Jul 5 with 1413 views | itfcjoe |
| Cat among the pigeons on 07:27 - Jul 5 by gazzer1999 |
And there was me thinking it was to appease the red wall voters who voted for Brexit. |
There is no appetite in this country to redo Brexit bar a small amount of people who want to rip it up
I wish it never happened, plenty do- but it had happened and it needs to work as best it can | |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 08:42 - Jul 5 with 1331 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:25 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
There is no appetite in this country to redo Brexit bar a small amount of people who want to rip it up
I wish it never happened, plenty do- but it had happened and it needs to work as best it can |
Making it work has to involve reopening free-trade with our nearest partners, which means something very close to the Norway option. | | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:58 - Jul 5 with 1258 views | BloomBlue |
He has simply accepted the hardest brexiteers have won the arguement and there is no going back.
A lot of what he said yesterday I didn't think offered anything special other than we can negotiate better than the government, but that assumes the EU will accept anything he wants. For example he stated product and food standards won't drop below the current standards but didn't commit to increasing them if the EU increases them, would the EU accept that in the future they currently won't. Which is the same problem as with the original negotiations if he did commit to following the same standards he upsets the brexiteers and if he doesn't he upsets the EU. I don't see what difference he offers
LibDems approach will be interesting as their party policy is to join the single market and Starmer has now said Kabour definitely won't. |  | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:00 - Jul 5 with 1247 views | hype313 |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:25 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
There is no appetite in this country to redo Brexit bar a small amount of people who want to rip it up
I wish it never happened, plenty do- but it had happened and it needs to work as best it can |
Nothing I've seen so far suggests it can work, or have the capable people in Government to make the best of the situation.
It's a mess, and Bojo doesn't have a clue how any of it works, but it was a good soundbite to get into number ten, so for him, it's worked. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 09:02 - Jul 5 with 1237 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:58 - Jul 5 by BloomBlue |
He has simply accepted the hardest brexiteers have won the arguement and there is no going back.
A lot of what he said yesterday I didn't think offered anything special other than we can negotiate better than the government, but that assumes the EU will accept anything he wants. For example he stated product and food standards won't drop below the current standards but didn't commit to increasing them if the EU increases them, would the EU accept that in the future they currently won't. Which is the same problem as with the original negotiations if he did commit to following the same standards he upsets the brexiteers and if he doesn't he upsets the EU. I don't see what difference he offers
LibDems approach will be interesting as their party policy is to join the single market and Starmer has now said Kabour definitely won't. |
What do you mean, "hardest brexoteers have won the argument"?
You mean, convinced a certain number of people to vote for it in a referendum?
Other than that, I have not seen any credible sustainable pro-Brexit arguments other than we don't want to upset anybody who we might want to vote for us.. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 09:11 - Jul 5 with 1180 views | Churchman |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:25 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
There is no appetite in this country to redo Brexit bar a small amount of people who want to rip it up
I wish it never happened, plenty do- but it had happened and it needs to work as best it can |
Agree with this. It is noticeable that trade with the EU has fallen over time. In 2006, UK exports to the EU accounted for 54% of all exports, falling to 42% in 2020. The share of all UK imports accounted for by the EU fell from a high of 58% in 2002 to 50% in 2020.
This has of course worsened since 2020, particularly U.K. exports where the EU has imposed the hardest border controls regime it can. It chose to do that for political reasons, not pragmatic ones. It didn’t have to do that, it chose to. People will say it’s a problem of the UKs making, they deserve their punishment and I get that, but it misses the point.
The EU and U.K. both suffer and I see no victory in suffering less than your political enemy when you don’t have to suffer at all. In the short term, Macron can point to the U.K. and cry failure, but in the long term, if business between the U.K. and EU diminishes, who benefits?
This is why I hope when Johnson’s crowd are gone, the relationship eases and more practical solutions are found. It’s possible to do, but not at the moment. | | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:13 - Jul 5 with 1166 views | MattinLondon |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:25 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
There is no appetite in this country to redo Brexit bar a small amount of people who want to rip it up
I wish it never happened, plenty do- but it had happened and it needs to work as best it can |
But how will it get better? The UK won’t be able to cheery-pick what it wants - it’ll simply carry on like it is. Simply passing the buck onto the young…like the environment and a lot of other good awful things which the politicians are too cowardly to fix properly. [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 9:16]
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| Cat among the pigeons on 09:16 - Jul 5 with 1153 views | BloomBlue |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:02 - Jul 5 by Ewan_Oozami |
What do you mean, "hardest brexoteers have won the argument"?
You mean, convinced a certain number of people to vote for it in a referendum?
Other than that, I have not seen any credible sustainable pro-Brexit arguments other than we don't want to upset anybody who we might want to vote for us.. |
That's what I mean, he doesn't want to upset the brexiteers who might vote for him so they have won then arguement.
I'm not talking about the arguement about positives / negatives of leaving the EU but if Starmer's stance 3 years ago was staying in the EU and now he conceds he wont go back then those arguing 3 years not to go back have won that arguement as far as Starmer is concerned | | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:18 - Jul 5 with 1129 views | giant_stow |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:13 - Jul 5 by MattinLondon |
But how will it get better? The UK won’t be able to cheery-pick what it wants - it’ll simply carry on like it is. Simply passing the buck onto the young…like the environment and a lot of other good awful things which the politicians are too cowardly to fix properly. [Post edited 5 Jul 2022 9:16]
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My problem with looking to roll back Brexit is what would we return to? If it were the same deal, fine, but if the cost of return was Euro membership, no ta. This is partly why it was such a disaster to leave our sweet deal in the first place. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 09:19 - Jul 5 with 1118 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:16 - Jul 5 by BloomBlue |
That's what I mean, he doesn't want to upset the brexiteers who might vote for him so they have won then arguement.
I'm not talking about the arguement about positives / negatives of leaving the EU but if Starmer's stance 3 years ago was staying in the EU and now he conceds he wont go back then those arguing 3 years not to go back have won that arguement as far as Starmer is concerned |
I’m not sure whether it’s that, or it cuts off the only campaign angle the Tories have. Could be one, the other or both. The Tories literally have nothing else unless to campaign on unless they make stuff up (like the 40 ‘new’ hospitals lie). |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 09:22 - Jul 5 with 1076 views | LeoMuff |
| Cat among the pigeons on 08:25 - Jul 5 by itfcjoe |
There is no appetite in this country to redo Brexit bar a small amount of people who want to rip it up
I wish it never happened, plenty do- but it had happened and it needs to work as best it can |
Surely the best of both worlds is single market access, we are technically out of the EU but retaining the main benefits, Irish problem solved. |  |
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| Cat among the pigeons on 09:35 - Jul 5 with 1014 views | MattinLondon |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:18 - Jul 5 by giant_stow |
My problem with looking to roll back Brexit is what would we return to? If it were the same deal, fine, but if the cost of return was Euro membership, no ta. This is partly why it was such a disaster to leave our sweet deal in the first place. |
I have no problem with adapting the Euro. I doubt whether the country will go straight back into the EU, more likely rejoin the single market and the customs Union as I think big business etc will demand it. | | | |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:51 - Jul 5 with 911 views | Blueschev |
| Cat among the pigeons on 09:11 - Jul 5 by Churchman |
Agree with this. It is noticeable that trade with the EU has fallen over time. In 2006, UK exports to the EU accounted for 54% of all exports, falling to 42% in 2020. The share of all UK imports accounted for by the EU fell from a high of 58% in 2002 to 50% in 2020.
This has of course worsened since 2020, particularly U.K. exports where the EU has imposed the hardest border controls regime it can. It chose to do that for political reasons, not pragmatic ones. It didn’t have to do that, it chose to. People will say it’s a problem of the UKs making, they deserve their punishment and I get that, but it misses the point.
The EU and U.K. both suffer and I see no victory in suffering less than your political enemy when you don’t have to suffer at all. In the short term, Macron can point to the U.K. and cry failure, but in the long term, if business between the U.K. and EU diminishes, who benefits?
This is why I hope when Johnson’s crowd are gone, the relationship eases and more practical solutions are found. It’s possible to do, but not at the moment. |
"the EU has imposed the hardest border controls regime it can. It chose to do that for political reasons, not pragmatic ones. It didn’t have to do that, it chose to." The UK is now subject to the same border controls as any other third country. We chose that by leaving the customs union. Anybody who thought it would be any different didn't know what they were talking about, which was most of the morons who campaigned to leave. |  | | |
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