| The North/South divide 08:11 - May 4 with 3957 views | DJR |
My trip to Barnsley involved diesel-powered trains on both the St Pancras-Sheffield line and the Sheffield-Barnsley line.
By way of contrast in terms of investment, my trip to the Exeter game on Saturday took in part of the brand-spanking new Elizabeth Line, which cost around £20 billion.
No wonder many people in the North are not happy with the state of affairs, especially given all the other large public investment projects concentrated in the South East (eg. the Olympics, Channel Tunnel rail link etc). [Post edited 4 May 2023 8:24]
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| The North/South divide on 08:27 - May 4 with 3516 views | GeoffSentence |
It's more a London-Rest Of The Country divide than a north south one really.
If I had my way, London would be right at the bottom of the queue for infrastructure investment right now, just enough to maintain what they have.
Everywhere else could do with some shiny new things. |  |
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| The North/South divide on 08:29 - May 4 with 3510 views | SaleAway |
Weird how London ( read the City) gets all the tax breaks too, isn't it? Almost like they don't give a *** about anyone else. |  |
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| The North/South divide on 08:43 - May 4 with 3462 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 08:27 - May 4 by GeoffSentence |
It's more a London-Rest Of The Country divide than a north south one really.
If I had my way, London would be right at the bottom of the queue for infrastructure investment right now, just enough to maintain what they have.
Everywhere else could do with some shiny new things. |
My view is that investment in and close to London ripples out to the Home Counties, although not necessarily to its outer limits such as north Essex and east Kent. | | | |
| The North/South divide on 09:22 - May 4 with 3353 views | giant_stow |
| The North/South divide on 08:29 - May 4 by SaleAway |
Weird how London ( read the City) gets all the tax breaks too, isn't it? Almost like they don't give a *** about anyone else. |
Not that I disagree that the balance of infrastructure spending is tilted too far towards London, what tax breaks does it get? As far as I remember reading, the tax take from London (inc businesses) basically funds the rest of the country. |  |
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| The North/South divide on 10:03 - May 4 with 3231 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 09:22 - May 4 by giant_stow |
Not that I disagree that the balance of infrastructure spending is tilted too far towards London, what tax breaks does it get? As far as I remember reading, the tax take from London (inc businesses) basically funds the rest of the country. |
To a large extent, this is due to the fact that the UK is far too dependent on financial services (which is not the sign of a balanced and healthy economy), but those in the City, and the wealthy in the South East, also do pretty well with things like the low levels of tax on dividends and capital gains, as well as the fact that expensive properties pay relatively little in terms of council tax, compared to what would have been the case for rates. [Post edited 4 May 2023 10:04]
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| The North/South divide on 10:25 - May 4 with 3164 views | giant_stow |
| The North/South divide on 10:03 - May 4 by DJR |
To a large extent, this is due to the fact that the UK is far too dependent on financial services (which is not the sign of a balanced and healthy economy), but those in the City, and the wealthy in the South East, also do pretty well with things like the low levels of tax on dividends and capital gains, as well as the fact that expensive properties pay relatively little in terms of council tax, compared to what would have been the case for rates. [Post edited 4 May 2023 10:04]
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Those advantages are shared by the wealthy all around the country though. Is there anything specific to London? | |
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| The North/South divide on 10:35 - May 4 with 3143 views | StokieBlue |
It's absolutely correct that the rest of the country should be getting more funding for infrastructure, especially some new networks across the North to link the larger cities.
The line you took to Barnsley is electrified on the section you cite, however it isn't electrified the whole way which is pretty embarrassing for a country with our economy. Apparently it's being worked on but there is no excuse for these lines not to be entirely electrified already.
https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/piling-starts-on-next-phase-of-the-midland-main-li
However, it's also worth noting that the Elizabeth line was probably needed as well, there were over 70m journeys in the first 6 months of it opening and that was before the expanded sections opened out to Reading etc which has increased the number of passengers.
Whether it was needed as much as other improvements elsewhere is debatable but I guess the decision was taken 20 years ago. Also worth noting that nearly 15% of the UK population lives within the M25.
Ideally the railways would be nationalised, ticket prices reduced and properly funded with regards to infrastructure.
SB |  | | |
| The North/South divide on 10:53 - May 4 with 3099 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 10:25 - May 4 by giant_stow |
Those advantages are shared by the wealthy all around the country though. Is there anything specific to London? |
Much higher house prices and wages etc, which means there are many more of them in London and the South East.
As regards high house prices, which trickle down the generations, it doesn't even require much effort.
I remember, as a solicitor, comparing the price of a flat in Knigthtsbridge which had been sold in 1977 for the same price my parents had paid in the same year for a detached house on Broke Hall estate in Ipswich. These days that flat in London would be likely to be worth a couple of million. [Post edited 4 May 2023 11:13]
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| The North/South divide on 10:59 - May 4 with 3053 views | TractorWood |
I hear you.
However, to me it is not North South it is simply does it start or finish in London. If not, it will be unreliable, expensive and infrequent.
SB is right about the Elizabeth line. It was desperately needed. The central line in the mornings and evenings was becoming ridiculous. [Post edited 4 May 2023 11:00]
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| The North/South divide on 11:01 - May 4 with 3031 views | Darth_Koont |
| The North/South divide on 10:03 - May 4 by DJR |
To a large extent, this is due to the fact that the UK is far too dependent on financial services (which is not the sign of a balanced and healthy economy), but those in the City, and the wealthy in the South East, also do pretty well with things like the low levels of tax on dividends and capital gains, as well as the fact that expensive properties pay relatively little in terms of council tax, compared to what would have been the case for rates. [Post edited 4 May 2023 10:04]
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Indeed.
The UK is one of if not the most centralised societies and economies in the OECD. That imbalance aided and abetted by the dominance of financial services that needs a financial capital like London to orbit around has largely screwed over the regions.
But there are precious few solutions to address that. Or incentives for politicians considering the major parties are bankrolled by the same corporate interests and donors, and cheer-led by London-centric media who prefer their own houses going up in value than seeing wealth redistributed further away. |  |
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| The North/South divide on 11:09 - May 4 with 2989 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 10:35 - May 4 by StokieBlue |
It's absolutely correct that the rest of the country should be getting more funding for infrastructure, especially some new networks across the North to link the larger cities.
The line you took to Barnsley is electrified on the section you cite, however it isn't electrified the whole way which is pretty embarrassing for a country with our economy. Apparently it's being worked on but there is no excuse for these lines not to be entirely electrified already.
https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/piling-starts-on-next-phase-of-the-midland-main-li
However, it's also worth noting that the Elizabeth line was probably needed as well, there were over 70m journeys in the first 6 months of it opening and that was before the expanded sections opened out to Reading etc which has increased the number of passengers.
Whether it was needed as much as other improvements elsewhere is debatable but I guess the decision was taken 20 years ago. Also worth noting that nearly 15% of the UK population lives within the M25.
Ideally the railways would be nationalised, ticket prices reduced and properly funded with regards to infrastructure.
SB |
It's not clear to me when electrification to Sheffield will be completed, but digging about it looks like bimode transport (presumably diesel and electric trains) appears to be part of the plan, presumably because of the cost of replacing all the rolling stock. [Post edited 4 May 2023 11:11]
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| The North/South divide on 11:15 - May 4 with 2944 views | StokieBlue |
| The North/South divide on 11:09 - May 4 by DJR |
It's not clear to me when electrification to Sheffield will be completed, but digging about it looks like bimode transport (presumably diesel and electric trains) appears to be part of the plan, presumably because of the cost of replacing all the rolling stock. [Post edited 4 May 2023 11:11]
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That cost should be paid by the privatised companies though, they lease the rolling stock and should be made to use some of their profits to upgrade to better stock where needed.
SB | | | |
| The North/South divide on 11:34 - May 4 with 2886 views | Churchman |
| The North/South divide on 10:35 - May 4 by StokieBlue |
It's absolutely correct that the rest of the country should be getting more funding for infrastructure, especially some new networks across the North to link the larger cities.
The line you took to Barnsley is electrified on the section you cite, however it isn't electrified the whole way which is pretty embarrassing for a country with our economy. Apparently it's being worked on but there is no excuse for these lines not to be entirely electrified already.
https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/piling-starts-on-next-phase-of-the-midland-main-li
However, it's also worth noting that the Elizabeth line was probably needed as well, there were over 70m journeys in the first 6 months of it opening and that was before the expanded sections opened out to Reading etc which has increased the number of passengers.
Whether it was needed as much as other improvements elsewhere is debatable but I guess the decision was taken 20 years ago. Also worth noting that nearly 15% of the UK population lives within the M25.
Ideally the railways would be nationalised, ticket prices reduced and properly funded with regards to infrastructure.
SB |
Agree with all of this.
Infrastructure is everything, yet oddly it’s something the tories have never believed in.
Crossrail was a must. I also think there needs to be a north/south version. And of course there needs expansion and upgrade connections right across the country (excluding Scotland of course ……only joking!).
Yes it costs money, but that’s a fraction of the revenue it generates. How stupid is it to connect the largest container port in the U.K. (Felixstowe is larger than the next two put together) with Mickey Mouse A roads, one of which is permanent roadworks? Madness. One runway at Heathrow, a Thames crossing at Dartford from which all the profits go to France and is almost permanently queued.
People talk about the environment, but how good is it then to have vehicles stationary there so much of the time. So get rid of motor vehicles. And replace with what? How does the country function if you do that? It doesn’t any more than people sit in queues for a Sunday drive laugh.
If you want the country to function, invest in infrastructure - all of it. We don’t have the money. Find the money. They do just that if they have to.
Illogical rant of the day complete. Back to Town in 25’! |  | | |
| The North/South divide on 11:50 - May 4 with 2857 views | giant_stow |
| The North/South divide on 10:53 - May 4 by DJR |
Much higher house prices and wages etc, which means there are many more of them in London and the South East.
As regards high house prices, which trickle down the generations, it doesn't even require much effort.
I remember, as a solicitor, comparing the price of a flat in Knigthtsbridge which had been sold in 1977 for the same price my parents had paid in the same year for a detached house on Broke Hall estate in Ipswich. These days that flat in London would be likely to be worth a couple of million. [Post edited 4 May 2023 11:13]
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high house prices are are both a blessing and a curse. Again it comes down to whether you're wealthy or not and if you're not, forget about buying even the tiniest place in London. | |
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| The North/South divide on 12:18 - May 4 with 2745 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 11:50 - May 4 by giant_stow |
high house prices are are both a blessing and a curse. Again it comes down to whether you're wealthy or not and if you're not, forget about buying even the tiniest place in London. |
I look on them much more as a curse.
In my view, a fair degree of the growth this country has achieved in the last twenty years or so has been down to the spending (eg. on extensions, cars etc) that higher house prices have given rise to, and so masked the fact that our real growth is pretty anaemic. [Post edited 4 May 2023 12:24]
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| The North/South divide on 12:26 - May 4 with 2699 views | jontysnut |
The absolute shambles that is Trans Pennine Express wouldn't be tolerated in the South East. |  | | |
| The North/South divide on 12:29 - May 4 with 2684 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 11:15 - May 4 by StokieBlue |
That cost should be paid by the privatised companies though, they lease the rolling stock and should be made to use some of their profits to upgrade to better stock where needed.
SB |
With the fragmented rail system we have, and supposedly less use, it is arguable whether that will happen.
There is a reason the Office of Rail Regulation was once jokingly known as Off Rails. [Post edited 4 May 2023 12:33]
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| The North/South divide on 13:14 - May 4 with 2578 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 12:26 - May 4 by jontysnut |
The absolute shambles that is Trans Pennine Express wouldn't be tolerated in the South East. |
And adverse weather only matters, and becomes a crisis, if it's in the South East. [Post edited 4 May 2023 13:15]
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| The North/South divide on 13:14 - May 4 with 2572 views | Freddies_Ears |
The lack of joined-up planning in UK is horrendous. For example, stopping HS2 at Old Oak Common rather than continuing to Euston has been flagged as a pinch point for the Elizabeth line, to the extent that it will not be able to meet the demand from a full HS2 train having to change for Central London.
The OP's wider point re North is spot on too. Massive underinvestment, and a govt that simply does not care. | | | |
| The North/South divide on 15:52 - May 4 with 2361 views | Ftnfwest |
My trips to Northern city centres usually tend to end on a shiny new tram system we can only dream of down here (apart from the rubbish one in Croydon) |  | | |
| The North/South divide on 16:17 - May 4 with 2314 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 15:52 - May 4 by Ftnfwest |
My trips to Northern city centres usually tend to end on a shiny new tram system we can only dream of down here (apart from the rubbish one in Croydon) |
According to the following, the last tram system to open in England was in 2004, so there clearly hasn't been much recent spending on them, and there certainly isn't one in Liverpool or Leeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_tramway_and_light_rail_systems_in_t
Incidentally, in this article, DLR is also mentioned, presumably on the basis that a light railway system is not dissimilar to a tramway system. [Post edited 4 May 2023 16:18]
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| The North/South divide on 16:34 - May 4 with 2256 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The North/South divide on 12:18 - May 4 by DJR |
I look on them much more as a curse.
In my view, a fair degree of the growth this country has achieved in the last twenty years or so has been down to the spending (eg. on extensions, cars etc) that higher house prices have given rise to, and so masked the fact that our real growth is pretty anaemic. [Post edited 4 May 2023 12:24]
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I think that’s part of the reason the govt keep the property prices inflated with stamp duty holidays and help to buy etc.
My entire local economy consists of people who lucked out on buying discounted council houses in Dagenham and the like, and move out and buy a big house, a brand new mercedes, a Staffie and a WHU tattoo. | | | |
| The North/South divide on 16:53 - May 4 with 2223 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
And yet so many people demand the Scrapping of HS2.....which admittedly does start in London but is one the biggest infrastructure investments to extend outside of London |  |
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| The North/South divide on 17:01 - May 4 with 2209 views | DJR |
| The North/South divide on 16:53 - May 4 by BlueandTruesince82 |
And yet so many people demand the Scrapping of HS2.....which admittedly does start in London but is one the biggest infrastructure investments to extend outside of London |
I think the issue with HS2 is that the vast sums of money could have been better spent in improving transport links more generally outside London, especially given the fact that HS2 will not go to Liverpool, for example, and does nothing for trans-Pennine links. | | | |
| The North/South divide on 17:15 - May 4 with 2180 views | jontysnut |
| The North/South divide on 16:17 - May 4 by DJR |
According to the following, the last tram system to open in England was in 2004, so there clearly hasn't been much recent spending on them, and there certainly isn't one in Liverpool or Leeds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_tramway_and_light_rail_systems_in_t
Incidentally, in this article, DLR is also mentioned, presumably on the basis that a light railway system is not dissimilar to a tramway system. [Post edited 4 May 2023 16:18]
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Liverpool has got a bit of an underground where Merseyrail services make it fairly easy to get about the city. Birmingham has extended its tram system. Leeds is one of the biggest cities in Europe without a tram/light railway. It's too expensive, of course. No HST either. 2 hours to get to Birmingham, same to Liverpool. The cross country trains that eventually turn up are short, cramped and crowded. Want to get a quick train or tram from Leeds station to the airport? forget it. Get on a bus and queue in traffic. I was in Zaragoza recently. Probably smaller than Leeds but with a quick, cheap and frequent tram line linking key parts of the city, including the football ground. Transport ministers of every stripe should be embarrassed. | | | |
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