| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? 19:01 - Jun 20 with 2617 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
I used to think the criticism of Southgate was harsh, but I totally get it now after seeing how football should be played for two and a half years.
England are brimming with talent but play so slowly, so negatively, so boringly. I've been peeling potatoes while watching this, and that was more interesting than the pedestrian yawnfest on the pitch. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 19:09 - Jun 20 with 2553 views | Swansea_Blue |
Totally. There aren’t many fans who get the chance to watch the football we have lately, especially coming through the Championship. Leeds and S’ton this year in fairness. Nobody last year - Burnley were dull and attritional, Sheff U and Luton not much better. Swansea did it under Martinez, Rogers and Laudrup - they carried from L1 to Championship to PL and Europe. That’s our template (as are Burley’s boys). |  |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 19:19 - Jun 20 with 2511 views | Asa |
I've said for a while that Southgate is very, very lucky.
In reality, a semi-final, last eight and a final is pretty much what you'd expect from a team that should, on paper, be consistently one of the best four or five teams in a tournament.
England have achieved what they probably should just on the law of averages. Southgate's stock has been massively over-exaggerated because for so many years the very same team of often world class players got nowhere near finals and semi-finals when they should have done.
In every England match the other team looks better organized. We beat so many of them because the gulf between our players and there players is so vast. Whenever we are remotely tested we fail.
Croatia in 2018. Big test. Go ahead and fail. First big team after we scraped past Colombia and beat Sweden.
Italy in 2021. Big test. Go ahead and fail. We'd got there by getting the weak side of the draw and Ukraine and Denmark in what was basically a home tournament. Yes we beat Germany, but the talk pre-tournament was about the worst German side for years.
France in 2022. Big test. Fail again. After beating Senegal.
For a country that has the best, or amongst the best leagues in the world, and a team that is never less than probably third or fourth favourite, we have a World Cup win over 50 years ago at home, a semi-final at home and a final at home in all those tournaments.
Italy 90 and Russia 18 are the only other time we've even got to the last four.
Our record against any nation that's deemed to be a top nation in any meaningful game is worse than Town's record on Sky pre-McKenna! We have the odd win over Germany in 2000, Argentina in 2002 etc in group games but nothing at all against anyone of note when it matters. That goes back to what? 1966?! Almost sixty bloody years!
Germany 70, Argentina 86, West Germany 90, Germany 96, Argentina 98, Brazil 02, Portugal 04, Portugal 06, Germany 10, Italy 12, Croatia 18, Italy 21, France 22.
That's defeat in EVERY single game we've played in a winner takes all match against a similarly really strong side going back to 1966. It's an unreal record. That's ignoring losses to the likes of Iceland, crashing out in 1988, 2000 and 2014 in the group stages, not qualifying in 74, 78, 94, 08 etc.
Even if you decide to be generous and say that Germany 21 were a good side, which they weren't in my view, it was a 'home' match at Wembley.
All of this underperformance has fooled people into thinking Southgate is better than he is. He's an average manager that stifles some of the best players around and makes us incredibly dull to watch, easy to work out and unable to get any kind of edge against any side that is remotely close to our level. I honestly think if you give Southgate a Premier League side around 6th - 8th in terms of quality, they finish about 15th.
Yet we rock up to every tournament supposedly as favourites. Absolutely hilarious. [Post edited 20 Jun 2024 19:46]
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 22:27 - Jun 20 with 2258 views | Stewart27 |
I view Denmark as one of the dullest teams I’ve ever seen at major tournaments. Absolutely dreadful. Always wearing the same kit. Always playing at 5pm in a nondescript stadium.
Today we made them look like peak Germany.
It was an absolutely disgusting performance. | | | |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 23:02 - Jun 20 with 2179 views | peterleeblue |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 19:19 - Jun 20 by Asa |
I've said for a while that Southgate is very, very lucky.
In reality, a semi-final, last eight and a final is pretty much what you'd expect from a team that should, on paper, be consistently one of the best four or five teams in a tournament.
England have achieved what they probably should just on the law of averages. Southgate's stock has been massively over-exaggerated because for so many years the very same team of often world class players got nowhere near finals and semi-finals when they should have done.
In every England match the other team looks better organized. We beat so many of them because the gulf between our players and there players is so vast. Whenever we are remotely tested we fail.
Croatia in 2018. Big test. Go ahead and fail. First big team after we scraped past Colombia and beat Sweden.
Italy in 2021. Big test. Go ahead and fail. We'd got there by getting the weak side of the draw and Ukraine and Denmark in what was basically a home tournament. Yes we beat Germany, but the talk pre-tournament was about the worst German side for years.
France in 2022. Big test. Fail again. After beating Senegal.
For a country that has the best, or amongst the best leagues in the world, and a team that is never less than probably third or fourth favourite, we have a World Cup win over 50 years ago at home, a semi-final at home and a final at home in all those tournaments.
Italy 90 and Russia 18 are the only other time we've even got to the last four.
Our record against any nation that's deemed to be a top nation in any meaningful game is worse than Town's record on Sky pre-McKenna! We have the odd win over Germany in 2000, Argentina in 2002 etc in group games but nothing at all against anyone of note when it matters. That goes back to what? 1966?! Almost sixty bloody years!
Germany 70, Argentina 86, West Germany 90, Germany 96, Argentina 98, Brazil 02, Portugal 04, Portugal 06, Germany 10, Italy 12, Croatia 18, Italy 21, France 22.
That's defeat in EVERY single game we've played in a winner takes all match against a similarly really strong side going back to 1966. It's an unreal record. That's ignoring losses to the likes of Iceland, crashing out in 1988, 2000 and 2014 in the group stages, not qualifying in 74, 78, 94, 08 etc.
Even if you decide to be generous and say that Germany 21 were a good side, which they weren't in my view, it was a 'home' match at Wembley.
All of this underperformance has fooled people into thinking Southgate is better than he is. He's an average manager that stifles some of the best players around and makes us incredibly dull to watch, easy to work out and unable to get any kind of edge against any side that is remotely close to our level. I honestly think if you give Southgate a Premier League side around 6th - 8th in terms of quality, they finish about 15th.
Yet we rock up to every tournament supposedly as favourites. Absolutely hilarious. [Post edited 20 Jun 2024 19:46]
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Great Post.
However this goes back longer than Southgate.
Svebmn had the supposed golden generation and yet it was quarter finals every time. Beaten as soon as we came up against anything decent. |  | | |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 07:48 - Jun 21 with 1752 views | Vic |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 19:19 - Jun 20 by Asa |
I've said for a while that Southgate is very, very lucky.
In reality, a semi-final, last eight and a final is pretty much what you'd expect from a team that should, on paper, be consistently one of the best four or five teams in a tournament.
England have achieved what they probably should just on the law of averages. Southgate's stock has been massively over-exaggerated because for so many years the very same team of often world class players got nowhere near finals and semi-finals when they should have done.
In every England match the other team looks better organized. We beat so many of them because the gulf between our players and there players is so vast. Whenever we are remotely tested we fail.
Croatia in 2018. Big test. Go ahead and fail. First big team after we scraped past Colombia and beat Sweden.
Italy in 2021. Big test. Go ahead and fail. We'd got there by getting the weak side of the draw and Ukraine and Denmark in what was basically a home tournament. Yes we beat Germany, but the talk pre-tournament was about the worst German side for years.
France in 2022. Big test. Fail again. After beating Senegal.
For a country that has the best, or amongst the best leagues in the world, and a team that is never less than probably third or fourth favourite, we have a World Cup win over 50 years ago at home, a semi-final at home and a final at home in all those tournaments.
Italy 90 and Russia 18 are the only other time we've even got to the last four.
Our record against any nation that's deemed to be a top nation in any meaningful game is worse than Town's record on Sky pre-McKenna! We have the odd win over Germany in 2000, Argentina in 2002 etc in group games but nothing at all against anyone of note when it matters. That goes back to what? 1966?! Almost sixty bloody years!
Germany 70, Argentina 86, West Germany 90, Germany 96, Argentina 98, Brazil 02, Portugal 04, Portugal 06, Germany 10, Italy 12, Croatia 18, Italy 21, France 22.
That's defeat in EVERY single game we've played in a winner takes all match against a similarly really strong side going back to 1966. It's an unreal record. That's ignoring losses to the likes of Iceland, crashing out in 1988, 2000 and 2014 in the group stages, not qualifying in 74, 78, 94, 08 etc.
Even if you decide to be generous and say that Germany 21 were a good side, which they weren't in my view, it was a 'home' match at Wembley.
All of this underperformance has fooled people into thinking Southgate is better than he is. He's an average manager that stifles some of the best players around and makes us incredibly dull to watch, easy to work out and unable to get any kind of edge against any side that is remotely close to our level. I honestly think if you give Southgate a Premier League side around 6th - 8th in terms of quality, they finish about 15th.
Yet we rock up to every tournament supposedly as favourites. Absolutely hilarious. [Post edited 20 Jun 2024 19:46]
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I hear you ASA, but then the same should be said for all the other managers since ‘66.
I find it interesting that when you lay this team against the ones of the 90’s and 00’s not many of this team would get into those teams. For all the hype the players now really aren’t that much better than before. So while I join the the criticism of last nights performance (it was inexcusable for me) it’s nothing new and the pile on on Southgate is a bit unfair, imho. |  |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 08:14 - Jun 21 with 1682 views | Buhrer |
My 13 year old daughter learnt last night that football can actually be boring. We spent most of the game imagining how much more entertaining we'd have found it even just having Leif on the bench. |  | | |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 08:41 - Jun 21 with 1613 views | Churchman |
Spot on Flash.
It’s hard not to make comparisons between that dross and McKenna’s team, even if we have been at lower levels. It’s the approach and attitude that’s so different and to most of the international teams out there.
What I notice with McKenna’s team, and top teams like Arsenal and MC, is that the players seem to by and large enjoy it; look ‘on it’ and sure of what they’re trying to do even if it doesn’t always work.
When I look at the England team, they look largely miserable and confused. Even in the line up they look like prisoners waiting to go out on the chain gang. There’s no freedom, no joy in them.
I hope you peeled those potatoes quicker than England played. If not I guess you’re still peeling them. |  | | |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 08:46 - Jun 21 with 1599 views | NthQldITFC |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 08:41 - Jun 21 by Churchman |
Spot on Flash.
It’s hard not to make comparisons between that dross and McKenna’s team, even if we have been at lower levels. It’s the approach and attitude that’s so different and to most of the international teams out there.
What I notice with McKenna’s team, and top teams like Arsenal and MC, is that the players seem to by and large enjoy it; look ‘on it’ and sure of what they’re trying to do even if it doesn’t always work.
When I look at the England team, they look largely miserable and confused. Even in the line up they look like prisoners waiting to go out on the chain gang. There’s no freedom, no joy in them.
I hope you peeled those potatoes quicker than England played. If not I guess you’re still peeling them. |
That's it. I think most of the magic of a football manager is to get the group psychology right in the first place, and then robust to setbacks. Of course it helps if you're tactically astute, decisive and dynamic in games (KMc) because you can minimise those setbacks. We have it all at the moment, England, not so much. |  |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 08:57 - Jun 21 with 1558 views | EddyJ |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 07:48 - Jun 21 by Vic |
I hear you ASA, but then the same should be said for all the other managers since ‘66.
I find it interesting that when you lay this team against the ones of the 90’s and 00’s not many of this team would get into those teams. For all the hype the players now really aren’t that much better than before. So while I join the the criticism of last nights performance (it was inexcusable for me) it’s nothing new and the pile on on Southgate is a bit unfair, imho. |
I think you have to look at the quality of our team relative to the other "big" countries.
Sven's golden generation were up against the Ronaldo/Rivaldo/Ronaldinho Brazil team, the Buffon/Totti/Maldini/Pirlo Italy team and the Zidane/Viera/Henry France teams. Germany, Netherlands, Portugal and Argentina were also pretty strong.
Southgate's golden generation have had very little competition. Spain and Germany are rebuilding after their own golden generations. Brazil haven't done much. Italian football is in a lull after peaking in the 90s. Argentina won the world cup due to lack of serious competition. The only teams peaking during the Southgate era are France, Belgium and Croatia. The latter two of whom we should have the resources to beat out anyway.
The international nature of the big domestic leagues makes international football a more level playing field. | | | |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 09:03 - Jun 21 with 1515 views | ElephantintheRoom |
It’s incredible isn’t it? Almost 60 years of failure and it’s always the manager’s fault.
It’s been fairly obvious that the wheels had dropped off the England team a year ago - at the very time the hype meter was being dialled up to 11 by the media. Perhaps proven good eggs like Maguire, Hendo and the Yorkshire Pirlo were slightly better at international football than they were given credit for at the time. And an ageing Kane, out of position Foden, overrated Saka and Bellingham aren’t that great together | |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 09:04 - Jun 21 with 1502 views | _clive_baker_ |
Certainly have. Its obviously a lot easier to implement a style of football and tactical direction and patterns through repetition at club level day in day out, rather than sporadic International meet ups, but this England side looks like a group of strangers to me. We were so poor in possession last night which can happen, but out of possession our shape and press was woeful, we didn't look like we knew who was pressing and when, as a result we're far too easy to play against and rarely turn over possession high up the pitch, which with the quality of our attacking players is exactly where we need it. As a consequence just about any chances we're going to create will have to be from back to front and against stubborn and well organised opposition is going to be difficult to do. I'm not a fan of XG stats particularly but we must be at about 1 combined across both matches, we've been so unthreatening.
Ultimately I just don't think Southgate has or ever will be a top coach, he's an FA yes man who has a decent enough record on paper, but it's true that we've generally not had an answer against the upper levels of opposition under him. We'll get through this group despite our tactical frailties by virtue of having some individual quality, but I'm not holding out too much hope of progressing past the top sides on this evidence. |  | | |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 09:06 - Jun 21 with 1492 views | Rimsy |
I said in an earlier thread, Southgate doesn't have the tactical nous to lead England. We should have won 2 or 3 of the last tournaments and with a more adept man at the helm we would have. Kane more or less said last night, they didn't know what they were supposed to be doing with or without the ball. These players are being asked to play totally a differently style to their week in week out club football. Often out of position. That all falls on the coach and he's not up to it. |  |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 09:06 - Jun 21 with 1487 views | Kieran_Knows |
He should've gone after Qatar with his head held 'relatively' high .... although I'm not sure you could call the last 3 tournaments any great success, given the failures in each game we went out/lost in. |  |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 10:15 - Jun 21 with 1351 views | textbackup |
Holy sht…. We agree on something 😂
But you are so correct. I was feeling shattered anyway after the 2 seasons we’ve had, and getting all exited for England really didnt interested me, but as you do you start to get the feeling… but watching that lastnight, Jesus Christ.
It’s so far from what we do as a team. If both teams set up against in each other in a game, I honestly think we’d win. |  |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 10:49 - Jun 21 with 1254 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 10:15 - Jun 21 by textbackup |
Holy sht…. We agree on something 😂
But you are so correct. I was feeling shattered anyway after the 2 seasons we’ve had, and getting all exited for England really didnt interested me, but as you do you start to get the feeling… but watching that lastnight, Jesus Christ.
It’s so far from what we do as a team. If both teams set up against in each other in a game, I honestly think we’d win. |
I know what you mean, as well, about the 'feeling shattered and not getting excited for England' bit. Have hardly watched any of the build up, been doing other things while watching (i.e. the aforementioned peeling potatoes) and have even had to ask a mate who a couple of the England players are.
I think it's a mix of Ipswich being great the last couple of years playing a breathless style of football - the opposite of England - and England letting me down for... well my whole life really. I just don't care about them anymore (yet).
I say yet, but it's going to take a big turn around from what we've seen in the first two games to get me onboard again. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 11:12 - Jun 21 with 1167 views | textbackup |
| We've been spoilt with McKennaball haven't we? on 10:49 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I know what you mean, as well, about the 'feeling shattered and not getting excited for England' bit. Have hardly watched any of the build up, been doing other things while watching (i.e. the aforementioned peeling potatoes) and have even had to ask a mate who a couple of the England players are.
I think it's a mix of Ipswich being great the last couple of years playing a breathless style of football - the opposite of England - and England letting me down for... well my whole life really. I just don't care about them anymore (yet).
I say yet, but it's going to take a big turn around from what we've seen in the first two games to get me onboard again. |
Hand on heart didn’t know who the CB was, or who he played for. But he’s impressed me, heart sank when he got caught in possession lastnight as he didn’t deserve to be the fall guy (had it resulted in a goal)
The euros I’ve enjoyed, I love watching the lesser nations when they play one another, their chance to get a result, and its blood and thunder.
Final group game is huge now, probably only need a point, but he’s got to find a style and system that suits them players. Completely chalk and cheese to what most of them play for their clubs. It can’t be THAT difficult to work out, can it?!
We are watching lightening quick Saka pass it back to rice/TAA/Walker and just stand still… why isn’t he then bombing down the line (even if he doesn’t get it, it’s an option) that surely has to be an instruction from the coach. Because attack minded players don’t just stand still.
Anyway, rant over. I love KM. Wes burns, Sam Morsy and Cam Burgess | |
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