| Perfect time for a wealth tax? 08:40 - Mar 26 with 3819 views | NthQldITFC |
Is now the perfect time for a wealth tax?
The government has a big majority.
The electorate, whilst holding a range of ideological viewpoints, are fully aware of the state this country has been allowed to get in to by successive governments.
The need to fund infrastructure rebuilding and maintenance (where applicable) is massive.
The need to keep public services running, and to optimise them and make them more efficient whilst providing adequate funding for a 21st century country is crucial to the security, wellbeing and future potential of the country.
Both of the above are hugely beneficial to people of all wealth levels.
The old scare story of places that wealth will 'run away' to don't look particularly appealing at the moment; the US is a nuthouse potentially about to implode, Europe is in the same boat as the UK, as are the likes of Canada and Australia perhaps.
Is this the perfect opportunity to make a fundamental change, utilising the strife of today and the risk we can all see ahead as a backboard to bounce off and to redefine who we are as a nation. We have made so many technological advances that a comfortable and happy basic existence for everybody in this country would be easy to achieve if we were just prepared to share a little. Could we even see some kind of social market economy emerge where the sum of happiness and real wealth - health and happiness of people and of our environment - sees some actual growth?
Democracy still works here - while we have, use it, and agitate for change.
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:43 - Mar 26 with 2376 views | Keno |
Whilst I don’t disagree in theory in practice it would difficult to implement in the UK for several, not least how incompetent HMRC are |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:48 - Mar 26 with 2349 views | bluelagos |
In principal - if you set it high enough - say wealth over £5-10m - and it was say 1-2% a year...
How much would it actually generate? (asking cos I don't know)
Any unintended consequences? (Some super wealthy people leaving?)
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For me - I'd go for plenty more wealthy consumption taxes. You want a second home - you can pay x10 on the council tax and 25% stamp duty. (not for renting out)
You want a £100k+ car - you can pay £10k a year road tax
You want to fly - an escalator where flight taxes start at £100 a trip and increase by 10 every return trip.
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All of these would need to be properly assessed of course, but raising taxes from those who can afford it seems way better than going after benefit claimants. |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:51 - Mar 26 with 2324 views | bsw72 |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:43 - Mar 26 by Keno |
Whilst I don’t disagree in theory in practice it would difficult to implement in the UK for several, not least how incompetent HMRC are |
Not to mention that the popular 2% on those with over £10m in assets would be difficult to actually enforce.
Only yesterday Paul Johnson, head of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, described the major difficulties with implementing a wealth tax in the UK. The fact that no country has managed to make such a tax both effective and efficient, largely due to the complexities of valuing assets and the risk of wealthy individuals moving their money—or themselves—abroad. These challenges make enforcement difficult as these individuals can afford some pretty effective accountants and lawyers. |  | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:03 - Mar 26 with 2257 views | _clive_baker_ |
We need to do something. The rich are getting richer and every other sucker is going to keep feeling the pinch. |  | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:04 - Mar 26 with 2254 views | bluelagos |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:51 - Mar 26 by bsw72 |
Not to mention that the popular 2% on those with over £10m in assets would be difficult to actually enforce.
Only yesterday Paul Johnson, head of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, described the major difficulties with implementing a wealth tax in the UK. The fact that no country has managed to make such a tax both effective and efficient, largely due to the complexities of valuing assets and the risk of wealthy individuals moving their money—or themselves—abroad. These challenges make enforcement difficult as these individuals can afford some pretty effective accountants and lawyers. |
Which is why I'd advocate taxing their consumption.
E.g. Stamp duty of 20% of the value of house sales over £5m - with no exemptions - that gets round the teams of tax accountants/lawyers. | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:06 - Mar 26 with 2245 views | NedPlimpton |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:48 - Mar 26 by bluelagos |
In principal - if you set it high enough - say wealth over £5-10m - and it was say 1-2% a year...
How much would it actually generate? (asking cos I don't know)
Any unintended consequences? (Some super wealthy people leaving?)
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For me - I'd go for plenty more wealthy consumption taxes. You want a second home - you can pay x10 on the council tax and 25% stamp duty. (not for renting out)
You want a £100k+ car - you can pay £10k a year road tax
You want to fly - an escalator where flight taxes start at £100 a trip and increase by 10 every return trip.
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All of these would need to be properly assessed of course, but raising taxes from those who can afford it seems way better than going after benefit claimants. |
Agree and Labour have already started chipping away at things like this with the VAT on private schools, abolishing non-don status etc. Still a very very long way to go though
Most councils are also significantly increasing council tax on second homes, and stamp duty increases are coming as well |  | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:09 - Mar 26 with 2215 views | NthQldITFC |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 08:51 - Mar 26 by bsw72 |
Not to mention that the popular 2% on those with over £10m in assets would be difficult to actually enforce.
Only yesterday Paul Johnson, head of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, described the major difficulties with implementing a wealth tax in the UK. The fact that no country has managed to make such a tax both effective and efficient, largely due to the complexities of valuing assets and the risk of wealthy individuals moving their money—or themselves—abroad. These challenges make enforcement difficult as these individuals can afford some pretty effective accountants and lawyers. |
I have no expertise whatsoever in this field (as I'm sure is obvious from my writings), but I am absolutely convinced of two things:
1. That there are pragmatic ways to put such a tax into practice if the will is actually there and the lawyers' instinct to complicate and prevaricate is stamped down upon.
2. Precision and nitty gritty is not necessarily required - set the bands, make the assessment, if the assessment is challenged move them down to the next lowest band and allow them to contest the difference through legal channels if they wish to (and wish to risk their lawyers' fees), meanwhile the bulk has already been paid and put to good use.
3. Bullsh!t excuses will always be made.
That's three things, but take two from me and I'll swallow the other one. | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:10 - Mar 26 with 2197 views | itfcjoe |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:04 - Mar 26 by bluelagos |
Which is why I'd advocate taxing their consumption.
E.g. Stamp duty of 20% of the value of house sales over £5m - with no exemptions - that gets round the teams of tax accountants/lawyers. |
But they don't consume, they accumulate |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:11 - Mar 26 with 2176 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
In reality it would be difficult to enforce, intangible assets can easily be moved offshore, or some wealthy might not have the liquidity to actually pay it. I always liked the mansion tax idea, it’s a physical asset, everyone needs somewhere to live. If they don’t want to pay the tax they can sell it to someone who does. Punitive taxes on those who own more than two homes (I.e the baby boomers who bought council houses for a fiver, made huge gains, and now hoard 5 buy to let flats.
But as with everything, I suspect the amount raised wouldn’t touch the sides. There’s also a very wealthy land and property owning class *Royal family cough* who contribute very little to the economy living mainly off passive income. They aren’t leaving since they own swathes of the country - tax’em. |  | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:11 - Mar 26 with 2179 views | bluelagos |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:06 - Mar 26 by NedPlimpton |
Agree and Labour have already started chipping away at things like this with the VAT on private schools, abolishing non-don status etc. Still a very very long way to go though
Most councils are also significantly increasing council tax on second homes, and stamp duty increases are coming as well |
I'll get pelters - but I'd ditch the triple lock on pensions.
Protecting the income of wealthy pensions when we are cutting benefits to the poorest?
Keep the triple lock for pensioners with an income under 25k. For those with >25k I'd limit it to RPI. | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:14 - Mar 26 with 2149 views | soupytwist |
There's plenty of talk about the topic at the moment. I think it's a superficially attractive idea but examples from other countries that have tried to implement something similar are not positive.
If the government wants to use its decent majority to do something big on tax it should really go for it - land value tax, reform CGT and IHT (so the farmers don't feel picked on) and other things.
Article about both sides of the argument - https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/economics/tax/68233/is-it-time-for-weal |  | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:18 - Mar 26 with 2107 views | bluelagos |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:10 - Mar 26 by itfcjoe |
But they don't consume, they accumulate |
They'll accumulate a lot less if you tax what they spend!
Property is one thing they invest in - and you could do the same with shares/dividends.
Dividend income over x - at double the rate for us plebs.
And why on earth people worry inheritance tax - no one ever pays a penny. The estate does and then some people get less "free money" passed onto them than they would have got.
If people object to not being able to pass on all their assets - then just spend it - or give it away. | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:28 - Mar 26 with 2057 views | bsw72 |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:04 - Mar 26 by bluelagos |
Which is why I'd advocate taxing their consumption.
E.g. Stamp duty of 20% of the value of house sales over £5m - with no exemptions - that gets round the teams of tax accountants/lawyers. |
Once you are at the 8 figure value of assets, they are rarely held in the individual’s name. A lot of property is used as leveraged debt to fund other activities/ investments, often in offshore companies etc. While they are still liable for taxes such as stamp duty, it makes it incredibly complex to chase down these numbers.
I’m all for the wealth tax, I just don’t see it generating anywhere near the revenue that has been published, but it would be a start.
I am pretty sure if a wealth tax was an effective means of taxation we would see in in place in other established G7 nations, the fact it is not suggests overwhelming complexity or fear of driving these wealthy individuals to other geographies which will have a much lower impact on their personal wealth.
The global nature of financial markets and the ability to move wealth at the click of a button makes enforcement of tax and other punitive financial measures on the wealthy completely ineffective. | | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:34 - Mar 26 with 2003 views | NthQldITFC |
What about the timing? It's now or never isn't it with the way things are going? And likely to be reciprocated in like-minded countries around the world? We can't go on down the road we are on - nobody wins. | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:35 - Mar 26 with 1989 views | Keno |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:06 - Mar 26 by NedPlimpton |
Agree and Labour have already started chipping away at things like this with the VAT on private schools, abolishing non-don status etc. Still a very very long way to go though
Most councils are also significantly increasing council tax on second homes, and stamp duty increases are coming as well |
I wish the USA had a Non-Don policy | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:40 - Mar 26 with 1960 views | TractorWood |
Public services and bodies are not underfunded. They are badly run. That's the reality and even a labour gov knows it. Hence the cuts.
More tax will further stall the economy and be inevitably wasted at present, until public bodies are properly reformed. |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:42 - Mar 26 with 1946 views | bsw72 |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:18 - Mar 26 by bluelagos |
They'll accumulate a lot less if you tax what they spend!
Property is one thing they invest in - and you could do the same with shares/dividends.
Dividend income over x - at double the rate for us plebs.
And why on earth people worry inheritance tax - no one ever pays a penny. The estate does and then some people get less "free money" passed onto them than they would have got.
If people object to not being able to pass on all their assets - then just spend it - or give it away. |
If it was as simple as that, it would be in place already.
I spent 4 years working in the Wealth Managememt, Provate Client Services division of a large US investment bank, in tech admittedly, but you still start to understand more about the business you have to support.
The complexity of how wealth is managed across a multinational spread of companies and trusts to minimise tax liability is simply staggering, and the financial institutions that support these activities can spend absolute top dollar on the best staff to make it happen, versus what th gvmt can afford to employ. There is a certain irony that the income tax for these lawyers, accountants and fund managers is already contributing significantly to the UK coffers. | | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:44 - Mar 26 with 1911 views | NedPlimpton |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:40 - Mar 26 by TractorWood |
Public services and bodies are not underfunded. They are badly run. That's the reality and even a labour gov knows it. Hence the cuts.
More tax will further stall the economy and be inevitably wasted at present, until public bodies are properly reformed. |
My experience of working in government bodies is that they are both underfunded and badly run!
Salaries are so far behind the private sector that you can't attract top talent so decisions aren't being made to industry leading standards.
We should invest in our public servants before challenging them to make budget cuts | | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:52 - Mar 26 with 1813 views | BlueBadger |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:40 - Mar 26 by TractorWood |
Public services and bodies are not underfunded. They are badly run. That's the reality and even a labour gov knows it. Hence the cuts.
More tax will further stall the economy and be inevitably wasted at present, until public bodies are properly reformed. |
Cuts are not being imposed on public services, they are being imposed on individuals who depend on public services. Making these individuals will not make the set ices run more efficiently. If anything, they will compound issues within acute medical and mental health services, home care and policing as vulnerable individuals will now be even more vulnerable. |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:56 - Mar 26 with 1788 views | homer_123 |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:18 - Mar 26 by bluelagos |
They'll accumulate a lot less if you tax what they spend!
Property is one thing they invest in - and you could do the same with shares/dividends.
Dividend income over x - at double the rate for us plebs.
And why on earth people worry inheritance tax - no one ever pays a penny. The estate does and then some people get less "free money" passed onto them than they would have got.
If people object to not being able to pass on all their assets - then just spend it - or give it away. |
This assumes their spend is taxable income. Which for the majority of high wealth net worth individuals, it's not. |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 10:00 - Mar 26 with 1772 views | TractorWood |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 09:52 - Mar 26 by BlueBadger |
Cuts are not being imposed on public services, they are being imposed on individuals who depend on public services. Making these individuals will not make the set ices run more efficiently. If anything, they will compound issues within acute medical and mental health services, home care and policing as vulnerable individuals will now be even more vulnerable. |
All mileage will vary, right. The Gov seem to claim post pandemic these benefits are propping up systemic economic activity that can be improved.
There are clearly some who need it desperately and some who probably could work. However, on the latter the wider infrastructure is obviously crap so it just becomes whackamole of inadequate services run by incompetent public bodies who aren't joined up. | |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 10:01 - Mar 26 with 1763 views | Mullet |
The Saxe Coburgs will never allow it as they have so much to lose. We’ve just given Charles enough dough to pay 100k+ PIP instead apparently, as an increase not a total.
There’s a lot that needs to change but too many of the population would resist it thinking they wouldn’t benefit from it. |  |
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 10:15 - Mar 26 with 1658 views | BlueBadger |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 10:00 - Mar 26 by TractorWood |
All mileage will vary, right. The Gov seem to claim post pandemic these benefits are propping up systemic economic activity that can be improved.
There are clearly some who need it desperately and some who probably could work. However, on the latter the wider infrastructure is obviously crap so it just becomes whackamole of inadequate services run by incompetent public bodies who aren't joined up. |
'People should starve because service cos aren't up to scratch' isn't a GREAT look, I'd suggest. [Post edited 26 Mar 10:23]
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| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 10:26 - Mar 26 with 1605 views | Churchman |
My understanding is that while morally right, wealth taxes don’t tend to bring in more actual money. Those who have it just shift it elsewhere. Whether that’s anecdotal or true, I really don’t know. Research required.
What I would do is try and close the tax gap and get those who don’t, to pay their dues. I’d increase Income tax by 1p in the £, possibly 2p. At the same time I’d raise the threshold for people who pay IT, or introduce another band to protect the most vulnerable.
Lastly I don’t see why people on reasonable retirement income shouldn’t continue to pay National Insurance. How about those with declared incomes of say £35k pa? While I’d prefer not to, I’d be ok with paying it given the need.
Money raised. NI to Social care, income tax to Defence. Without it in a dangerous world we won’t have to worry about NHS, education or anything else.
Sorted! |  | | |
| Perfect time for a wealth tax? on 10:34 - Mar 26 with 1581 views | baxterbasics |
I wouldn't object to a 'wealth tax' if there is a way to do it that:
is enforceable
won't just see those affected find creative ways to avoid it, or move it all elsewhere
actually raises significant revenue, and isn't just a token to appear 'fair' or punish the well off
Am yet to see a credible policy suggestion. It's very difficult, which is why it hasn't happened yet.
The burden is always going to rest on the shoulders of us PAYE suckers. And SMEs. |  |
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