| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition 20:04 - Jun 23 with 2000 views | Darth_Koont |
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/23/keir-starmer-labour-lose-o
We’ve basically got an opposition who are more concerned with cementing their establishment credentials (and future careers) than addressing the real issues of the UK in 2021. And those issues are getting bigger and tougher globally, let alone in the UK which was already slipping backwards.
Pull your fingers out.
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:11 - Jun 23 with 1659 views | Coastalblue |
Not read the article yet, but will. I listened to PMQ's today and it seemed like whilst BJ seemed to just want to answer everything with 'we've achieved the best vaccine roll out in Europe', hanging his hat on the one thing they have completely ballsed up, Starmer just sounded like there was zero conviction in his questions.
I know there's a lot more to being a decent leader of the opposition than sounding good but he doesn't inspire a huge amount of confidence in the way he comes across.
This has to be one of the worst PM's we've ever had, a bumbling fool, it can't be that hard to take him to task and show him for what he is. |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:19 - Jun 23 with 1623 views | Clapham_Junction |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:11 - Jun 23 by Coastalblue |
Not read the article yet, but will. I listened to PMQ's today and it seemed like whilst BJ seemed to just want to answer everything with 'we've achieved the best vaccine roll out in Europe', hanging his hat on the one thing they have completely ballsed up, Starmer just sounded like there was zero conviction in his questions.
I know there's a lot more to being a decent leader of the opposition than sounding good but he doesn't inspire a huge amount of confidence in the way he comes across.
This has to be one of the worst PM's we've ever had, a bumbling fool, it can't be that hard to take him to task and show him for what he is. |
The problem with British (or rather English) politics is that even if someone did take him to task, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to many of the people that vote for the Tories. |  | | |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:21 - Jun 23 with 1617 views | pointofblue |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:11 - Jun 23 by Coastalblue |
Not read the article yet, but will. I listened to PMQ's today and it seemed like whilst BJ seemed to just want to answer everything with 'we've achieved the best vaccine roll out in Europe', hanging his hat on the one thing they have completely ballsed up, Starmer just sounded like there was zero conviction in his questions.
I know there's a lot more to being a decent leader of the opposition than sounding good but he doesn't inspire a huge amount of confidence in the way he comes across.
This has to be one of the worst PM's we've ever had, a bumbling fool, it can't be that hard to take him to task and show him for what he is. |
There is a slight issue in that Johnson is Teflon - nothing sticks with him. I also suspect the Tories will throw him out once the pandemic is out of the way so it will be interesting to see who replaces him and, if he’s still in place, whether. Starmer can have any impact against them.
I fully agree with the article though. I guess the key thing to keep the base on board whilst luring in some of the older generation. |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:59 - Jun 23 with 1559 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Good read.
"According to figures from the latest round of the British Election Study, most low-income workers actually voted for Labour in 2019; if we leave aside retirees, the only income group where the Conservatives led Labour was those earning over £100k. Without the votes of pensioners, Labour would have led the Conservatives by three percentage points."
"So the party’s issue is not that it has “lost the working class” or failed to appeal to aspirational voters; it has lost pensioners whose material circumstances, alongside demographic shifts, have created an almost impenetrable Tory base." |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 21:52 - Jun 23 with 1492 views | Gogs |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:59 - Jun 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Good read.
"According to figures from the latest round of the British Election Study, most low-income workers actually voted for Labour in 2019; if we leave aside retirees, the only income group where the Conservatives led Labour was those earning over £100k. Without the votes of pensioners, Labour would have led the Conservatives by three percentage points."
"So the party’s issue is not that it has “lost the working class” or failed to appeal to aspirational voters; it has lost pensioners whose material circumstances, alongside demographic shifts, have created an almost impenetrable Tory base." |
But what are the further demographics of those voters, i.e. what's the age/income vote split in the 'red wall' seats the Tories gained? Those numbers mean very little if Labour had a massive share of the vote amongst younger lower-income voters in safe Labour seats in London and other major cities. I have no idea what those numbers are but without them you can't really read too much into that New Statesman study |  | | |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 06:40 - Jun 24 with 1361 views | GaryCooper |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:59 - Jun 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Good read.
"According to figures from the latest round of the British Election Study, most low-income workers actually voted for Labour in 2019; if we leave aside retirees, the only income group where the Conservatives led Labour was those earning over £100k. Without the votes of pensioners, Labour would have led the Conservatives by three percentage points."
"So the party’s issue is not that it has “lost the working class” or failed to appeal to aspirational voters; it has lost pensioners whose material circumstances, alongside demographic shifts, have created an almost impenetrable Tory base." |
Do you believe that the working class are all low income? |  | | |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 07:36 - Jun 24 with 1307 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 06:40 - Jun 24 by GaryCooper |
Do you believe that the working class are all low income? |
What have my beliefs got to do with this report which is clearly based on income levels?
Edit....are you 'aspirational' Gary? [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 7:39]
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:36 - Jun 24 with 1218 views | GaryCooper |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 07:36 - Jun 24 by BanksterDebtSlave |
What have my beliefs got to do with this report which is clearly based on income levels?
Edit....are you 'aspirational' Gary? [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 7:39]
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Sorry, am I correct in reading that the report is grouping low income with working class? | | | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:40 - Jun 24 with 1212 views | tractordownsouth |
Despite my views on him, I think Zarb-Cousin has a point about positivity. Detoxifying the brand post-Corbyn was always going to take longer than a year, but maybe now is the time to be try and move on from it rather than overcomponsating by being too cautious. By keeping Corbyn out of the PLP that's quite a clear signal in itself. I know what a lot of the policies are, but for people who aren't politically engaged I can see why they'd struggle. It would be nice to see Starmer champion a single issue for a while - perhaps the cladding scandal?
I do have a couple of issues with it though. It's true that those 2019 policies poll well individually, but that's a whole different kettle of fish to a popular manifesto. I think a committment to greater public spending, but without committment to middle class giveaways like tuition fees, is a good position to start from. Additionally, I don't think it's fair for Zarb to moan about Starmer trashing the Corbyn era when he and his ilk spent the entire Corbyn leadership disregarding the achievments of the last Labour government. As Ed Miliband found out, if you spend your time telling the public how bad a Labour government is, don't expect them to vote for one. |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:42 - Jun 24 with 1209 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:36 - Jun 24 by GaryCooper |
Sorry, am I correct in reading that the report is grouping low income with working class? |
If I remember correctly only those earning over 100k and pensioners were majority Conservative voters. Income was definitely used to define social class. | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:44 - Jun 24 with 1203 views | Pinewoodblue |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:36 - Jun 24 by GaryCooper |
Sorry, am I correct in reading that the report is grouping low income with working class? |
The article actually says that , when you look at voting by earnings bands, Labour have the biggest share of the vote in all wage bands below £100,000.
In truth the article simply gets excuses in early for Labour losing next weeks by-election. |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:56 - Jun 24 with 1178 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
How do these Election Studies find out the professions and incomes of voters, or is it guesswork? Very few people divulge their income/wealth/poverty to anyone. I suppose they can be taken as a guide but I would not put too much faith in them. | | | |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 09:43 - Jun 24 with 1139 views | mutters |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:19 - Jun 23 by Clapham_Junction |
The problem with British (or rather English) politics is that even if someone did take him to task, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to many of the people that vote for the Tories. |
That is so true across the political spectrum. There are voters who will blindly vote for the Conservatives no matter what they do and conversely, there are people who will never vote for them no matter what they do. I know personally people who will never vote labour due to their high tax rate regime of the 70s, likewise, I know those who will never vote blue because of Thatcher! Neither has any relevancy these days but their positions are so firmly entrenched and won't change no matter what its embarrassing.... people need to review what's happening now not what happened years ago. |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 09:52 - Jun 24 with 1127 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:59 - Jun 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Good read.
"According to figures from the latest round of the British Election Study, most low-income workers actually voted for Labour in 2019; if we leave aside retirees, the only income group where the Conservatives led Labour was those earning over £100k. Without the votes of pensioners, Labour would have led the Conservatives by three percentage points."
"So the party’s issue is not that it has “lost the working class” or failed to appeal to aspirational voters; it has lost pensioners whose material circumstances, alongside demographic shifts, have created an almost impenetrable Tory base." |
So basically it's Facters' fault? |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:03 - Jun 24 with 1115 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 20:11 - Jun 23 by Coastalblue |
Not read the article yet, but will. I listened to PMQ's today and it seemed like whilst BJ seemed to just want to answer everything with 'we've achieved the best vaccine roll out in Europe', hanging his hat on the one thing they have completely ballsed up, Starmer just sounded like there was zero conviction in his questions.
I know there's a lot more to being a decent leader of the opposition than sounding good but he doesn't inspire a huge amount of confidence in the way he comes across.
This has to be one of the worst PM's we've ever had, a bumbling fool, it can't be that hard to take him to task and show him for what he is. |
You'd want Starmer as PM over Johnson in a heartbeat, if it's just about the person. Especially now during a period that requires grown ups to be leading. And I think Starmer has shown him up in PMQs, from what I've seen anyway.
Also, what always puts me off Labour is all the baggage that comes with them. There's always been someone or something that is just grates with me. Be it some of the union types or crackpots like Galloway back in the day. The weirdness around Corbyn, antisemitism ding dong, etc. | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:06 - Jun 24 with 1107 views | HARRY10 |
Be grateful they are only 'ishooos', and nor problems, as the latter might suggest cause and responsibility
Rather than having them sanitised by a bit of vacuous newspeak. | | | |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:15 - Jun 24 with 1091 views | chicoazul |
Koonters you keep mentioning the real issues but you never tell us what they are. |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:23 - Jun 24 with 1074 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:03 - Jun 24 by Swansea_Blue |
You'd want Starmer as PM over Johnson in a heartbeat, if it's just about the person. Especially now during a period that requires grown ups to be leading. And I think Starmer has shown him up in PMQs, from what I've seen anyway.
Also, what always puts me off Labour is all the baggage that comes with them. There's always been someone or something that is just grates with me. Be it some of the union types or crackpots like Galloway back in the day. The weirdness around Corbyn, antisemitism ding dong, etc. |
" ...what always puts me off Labour is all the baggage that comes with them."
Is this not true of the Conservatives and, perhaps less so, the Lib Dems too?
ERG/CRG/1922 committee/Hunt, T etc
"Orange Bookers" vs Beveridge Group/Alistair Carmichael |  |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:33 - Jun 24 with 1065 views | Darth_Koont |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 08:40 - Jun 24 by tractordownsouth |
Despite my views on him, I think Zarb-Cousin has a point about positivity. Detoxifying the brand post-Corbyn was always going to take longer than a year, but maybe now is the time to be try and move on from it rather than overcomponsating by being too cautious. By keeping Corbyn out of the PLP that's quite a clear signal in itself. I know what a lot of the policies are, but for people who aren't politically engaged I can see why they'd struggle. It would be nice to see Starmer champion a single issue for a while - perhaps the cladding scandal?
I do have a couple of issues with it though. It's true that those 2019 policies poll well individually, but that's a whole different kettle of fish to a popular manifesto. I think a committment to greater public spending, but without committment to middle class giveaways like tuition fees, is a good position to start from. Additionally, I don't think it's fair for Zarb to moan about Starmer trashing the Corbyn era when he and his ilk spent the entire Corbyn leadership disregarding the achievments of the last Labour government. As Ed Miliband found out, if you spend your time telling the public how bad a Labour government is, don't expect them to vote for one. |
Were they trashing New Labour or was it that the Labour government didn’t objectively do enough in its 13 years of power?
Of course they were better than the Tories but they dropped the ball on widening inequalities and the chance to establish anything like a modern, social democratic narrative. As soon as they left, the UK was ripe for austerity and a return to small government because that was actually never effectively countered by Labour. In fact, it was largely embraced.
We needed to shift from the neoliberal path (and the imperialist one too with Iraq and foreign policy another blot on New Labour’s copy book) but we cemented that direction of travel. Anyone who continuously banged on or still bangs on about Blairism being the right path is clearly a cult member and they certainly haven’t seen how that’s lost Labour support since 1997.
The Labour right is taking the party towards electoral oblivion. But at least they’re doing it at a rate of knots so sooner rather than later something credible and valuable can emerge in its place. | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:44 - Jun 24 with 1051 views | Darth_Koont |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:15 - Jun 24 by chicoazul |
Koonters you keep mentioning the real issues but you never tell us what they are. |
Oh p!ss off. 😀
You’re really saying that I haven’t been banging on about 4+ million children in poverty, structural inequalities based on region and race, an unbalanced financial services-heavy economy, too low taxation, too little investment in local and public services, no real focus on green industries and tech, too little preparation for automation and AI, democratic reform, media reform ... ? | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:46 - Jun 24 with 1040 views | chicoazul |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:44 - Jun 24 by Darth_Koont |
Oh p!ss off. 😀
You’re really saying that I haven’t been banging on about 4+ million children in poverty, structural inequalities based on region and race, an unbalanced financial services-heavy economy, too low taxation, too little investment in local and public services, no real focus on green industries and tech, too little preparation for automation and AI, democratic reform, media reform ... ? |
But apart from all that. | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 11:00 - Jun 24 with 1022 views | Darth_Koont |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:46 - Jun 24 by chicoazul |
But apart from all that. |
Well, I suppose I’d be left with banging on about the trade and foreign policy mess. Or how centralised, self-interested power has fractured the Union, arguably beyond repair.
But they’re just small details at this stage. | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 11:17 - Jun 24 with 989 views | CoachRob |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:33 - Jun 24 by Darth_Koont |
Were they trashing New Labour or was it that the Labour government didn’t objectively do enough in its 13 years of power?
Of course they were better than the Tories but they dropped the ball on widening inequalities and the chance to establish anything like a modern, social democratic narrative. As soon as they left, the UK was ripe for austerity and a return to small government because that was actually never effectively countered by Labour. In fact, it was largely embraced.
We needed to shift from the neoliberal path (and the imperialist one too with Iraq and foreign policy another blot on New Labour’s copy book) but we cemented that direction of travel. Anyone who continuously banged on or still bangs on about Blairism being the right path is clearly a cult member and they certainly haven’t seen how that’s lost Labour support since 1997.
The Labour right is taking the party towards electoral oblivion. But at least they’re doing it at a rate of knots so sooner rather than later something credible and valuable can emerge in its place. |
Have you heard about the New Liberals in Australia?
Could this sort of platform be the basis of a new progressive alliance?
Labour seems to have run out of road, I have no idea where they stand on climate change - the single most important issue (see forecasts and drought metrics for Western USA).
https://www.thenewliberals.net.au |  | | |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 11:40 - Jun 24 with 964 views | tractordownsouth |
| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 10:33 - Jun 24 by Darth_Koont |
Were they trashing New Labour or was it that the Labour government didn’t objectively do enough in its 13 years of power?
Of course they were better than the Tories but they dropped the ball on widening inequalities and the chance to establish anything like a modern, social democratic narrative. As soon as they left, the UK was ripe for austerity and a return to small government because that was actually never effectively countered by Labour. In fact, it was largely embraced.
We needed to shift from the neoliberal path (and the imperialist one too with Iraq and foreign policy another blot on New Labour’s copy book) but we cemented that direction of travel. Anyone who continuously banged on or still bangs on about Blairism being the right path is clearly a cult member and they certainly haven’t seen how that’s lost Labour support since 1997.
The Labour right is taking the party towards electoral oblivion. But at least they’re doing it at a rate of knots so sooner rather than later something credible and valuable can emerge in its place. |
I don’t think anyone is suggesting Blairism is the path to go down - I’m certainly not and neither is the current leadership or membership. Corbynism clearly isn’t the way to go either. There seems to be this idea from some that anything to the left of Blair is Corbynite and anything to the right of Corbyn is Blairite. The reality of the Uk’s political system is that it should be somewhere in the middle.
Iraq was certainly a disaster and has rightly tarnished Blair’s legacy but of course there were also successes in Kosovo. The behaviour of Corbyn in the aftermath of that - signing an early day motion casting doubt over the extent of the war crimes, after he’d voted against intervening to stop them -- was pretty disgraceful. To simply dismiss any intervention as “imperialism” is an extremely privileged position to take. There’s nothing moral about turning away when there’s a genocide going on. | |
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| This is spot on about Starmer and his so-called opposition on 12:12 - Jun 24 with 926 views | SouperJim |
It's ok, John Bercow will lead New Labour 2.0 to victory. |  |
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