| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that 13:53 - Feb 24 with 3061 views | homer_123 |
no one is really going to stop Russia?
I mean, no one stepped in when Crimea was annexed - even global sanctions are not going to cut it.
It's clear there is no appetite for anything other than weapons support for the Ukraine. Very difficult to not see anything other than a fully taken over Ukraine with a puppet government. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:09 - Feb 24 with 2508 views | Vaughan8 |
I'm not expert but I saw on the news that I think the fact is, if Russia aren't invading a NATO country, NATO aren't going to send any miliary help, so its Ukraine on their own.
And did Russia do some Deal with China to help again NATO sanctions? [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 14:10]
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:14 - Feb 24 with 2471 views | Steve_M |
Militarily then probably no. Had this been limited to 'just' those territories that Russian proxies have effectively controlled since 2014 then I suspect the reaction would be fairly similar to Crimea - sanctions but nothing too punishing. Russian public opinion was rather more in favour of those wars than seems to be the case now despite the repression of independent media that has continued since.
That this is basically an attempt to impose a pro-Putin government by force, and thus occupy the country, then I'm not sure that sanctions will be as limited as back in 2014. Frankly, the calculation being made is that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and even Finland are vulnerable now. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:16 - Feb 24 with 2447 views | J2BLUE |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:09 - Feb 24 by Vaughan8 |
I'm not expert but I saw on the news that I think the fact is, if Russia aren't invading a NATO country, NATO aren't going to send any miliary help, so its Ukraine on their own.
And did Russia do some Deal with China to help again NATO sanctions? [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 14:10]
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NATO and Ukraine is a bit like Sitters and those divs a few years ago.
We're near them, but not with them.
"We are standing side by side with Ukraine". No we aren't. I know we can't and i'm not suggesting we can but we clearly aren't standing with Ukraine. |  |
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| Basically we are going to..... on 14:17 - Feb 24 with 2427 views | Bloots |
....take away their Cashpoint cards.
That'll learn 'em. |  |
| "Great to see you back on here mate, I was considering deactivating my account if you hadn’t returned" - TWTD User (Aug 2025) |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:18 - Feb 24 with 2429 views | homer_123 |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:14 - Feb 24 by Steve_M |
Militarily then probably no. Had this been limited to 'just' those territories that Russian proxies have effectively controlled since 2014 then I suspect the reaction would be fairly similar to Crimea - sanctions but nothing too punishing. Russian public opinion was rather more in favour of those wars than seems to be the case now despite the repression of independent media that has continued since.
That this is basically an attempt to impose a pro-Putin government by force, and thus occupy the country, then I'm not sure that sanctions will be as limited as back in 2014. Frankly, the calculation being made is that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and even Finland are vulnerable now. |
Your last sentence is telling, given that sanctions are not going to have an affect - if this isn't stopped now, then when?
China is a significant player here - the 'only' way I see sanctions having any kind of 'real term' affect is if China actively supports them - even if they don't publicly. Without that - Russia will be able to ride out any US/ EU/ UK etc sanctions.
Your point is then telling isn't it - that lays open that whole section to Russia. | |
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| Basically we are going to..... on 14:18 - Feb 24 with 2420 views | homer_123 |
| Basically we are going to..... on 14:17 - Feb 24 by Bloots |
....take away their Cashpoint cards.
That'll learn 'em. |
What about their Tesco Clubcards? | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:19 - Feb 24 with 2417 views | homer_123 |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:16 - Feb 24 by J2BLUE |
NATO and Ukraine is a bit like Sitters and those divs a few years ago.
We're near them, but not with them.
"We are standing side by side with Ukraine". No we aren't. I know we can't and i'm not suggesting we can but we clearly aren't standing with Ukraine. |
The UK is certainly supplying arms and Germany look like their position is changing - so, we are certainly not an utterly passive by-stander.
What are the implications if we don't do anything to actually stop Putin? What are the implications if we do? | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:20 - Feb 24 with 2407 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Best we can hope for is mass dissent in Russia. Cutting them off from international credit, collapse of the rouble, and a run on the banks. Moscow stock exchange fell 46pc earlier - Putin may not care, but hopefully people won’t be too pleased. | | | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:23 - Feb 24 with 2380 views | J2BLUE |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:19 - Feb 24 by homer_123 |
The UK is certainly supplying arms and Germany look like their position is changing - so, we are certainly not an utterly passive by-stander.
What are the implications if we don't do anything to actually stop Putin? What are the implications if we do? |
I never said we were entirely passive. We certainly aren't but we are not standing shoulder to shoulder with them.
Not that it really matters. At this point being a pedantic pr1ck about language is missing the point so I will stop! | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:24 - Feb 24 with 2365 views | chicoazul |
Yes. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:28 - Feb 24 with 2350 views | Churchman |
Of course they are not. Russia is militarily extremely powerful.
My view is that Ukraine will collapse pretty quickly and it’s leaders/dissidents will be dead or in a gulag before Easter. The rush will be on by then to normalise relations with Putin to guarantee that oil and gas keeps flowing.
Has anybody severed diplomatic ties with Russia? Nope. Only Ukraine. Funny that. Putin has made threats against the west and he has shown he will carry threats out. It’s his ace card.
The big question is not where Russia goes next after swallowing Ukraine, but when. He won’t stop and I don’t think anyone can or has the will to stop him, especially if he orientates further towards China who have their own designs. |  | | |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:29 - Feb 24 with 2337 views | Trequartista |
They have nuclear weapons. That is the bottom line and is what makes comparisons with Chamberlain and appeasement redundant.
The question is not whether NATO will intervene in Ukraine, the question is will we risk the destruction of London, Paris or Berlin to save Riga, Tallinn or Vilnius should they be next in line. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:31 - Feb 24 with 2299 views | chicoazul |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:28 - Feb 24 by Churchman |
Of course they are not. Russia is militarily extremely powerful.
My view is that Ukraine will collapse pretty quickly and it’s leaders/dissidents will be dead or in a gulag before Easter. The rush will be on by then to normalise relations with Putin to guarantee that oil and gas keeps flowing.
Has anybody severed diplomatic ties with Russia? Nope. Only Ukraine. Funny that. Putin has made threats against the west and he has shown he will carry threats out. It’s his ace card.
The big question is not where Russia goes next after swallowing Ukraine, but when. He won’t stop and I don’t think anyone can or has the will to stop him, especially if he orientates further towards China who have their own designs. |
Food prices will go up. Lotta food comes out of Ukraine. Bread basket of the east and all that. | |
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| Basically we are going to..... on 14:33 - Feb 24 with 2278 views | blueasfook |
| Basically we are going to..... on 14:17 - Feb 24 by Bloots |
....take away their Cashpoint cards.
That'll learn 'em. |
Vlad has now had his Amazon Prime account suspended, so he is going to have to wait a day or two more for his packages. That'll make him think twice about warmongering. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:34 - Feb 24 with 2272 views | pointofblue |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:20 - Feb 24 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Best we can hope for is mass dissent in Russia. Cutting them off from international credit, collapse of the rouble, and a run on the banks. Moscow stock exchange fell 46pc earlier - Putin may not care, but hopefully people won’t be too pleased. |
I don’t see why we don’t act in the same way as we did with the apartheid in South Africa; basically cut them off completely.
Oh yes, gas. | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:45 - Feb 24 with 2226 views | N2_Blue |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:20 - Feb 24 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Best we can hope for is mass dissent in Russia. Cutting them off from international credit, collapse of the rouble, and a run on the banks. Moscow stock exchange fell 46pc earlier - Putin may not care, but hopefully people won’t be too pleased. |
doesn't really matter though. Russia is all but a dictatorship in name, polls are rigged. it's nigh impossible to protest and 0% chance of a military coup so Putin can p*ss off his nation as it will only be the people that suffer the effect of the sanctions but he'll carry on with whatever he wants to do.
The sanctions will have zero effect on his assault on Ukraine unfortunately. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:47 - Feb 24 with 2221 views | Steve_M |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:18 - Feb 24 by homer_123 |
Your last sentence is telling, given that sanctions are not going to have an affect - if this isn't stopped now, then when?
China is a significant player here - the 'only' way I see sanctions having any kind of 'real term' affect is if China actively supports them - even if they don't publicly. Without that - Russia will be able to ride out any US/ EU/ UK etc sanctions.
Your point is then telling isn't it - that lays open that whole section to Russia. |
Yep, and also why just a few more sanctions won't be enough. Which increases the possibility that properly hitting oligarchs and Russian state-controlled entities is a real choice this time.
I don't think we should be totally pessimistic here, not yet anyway. | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:49 - Feb 24 with 2206 views | homer_123 |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:23 - Feb 24 by J2BLUE |
I never said we were entirely passive. We certainly aren't but we are not standing shoulder to shoulder with them.
Not that it really matters. At this point being a pedantic pr1ck about language is missing the point so I will stop! |
Wasn't having a pop J2! | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:49 - Feb 24 with 2212 views | blueasfook |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:29 - Feb 24 by Trequartista |
They have nuclear weapons. That is the bottom line and is what makes comparisons with Chamberlain and appeasement redundant.
The question is not whether NATO will intervene in Ukraine, the question is will we risk the destruction of London, Paris or Berlin to save Riga, Tallinn or Vilnius should they be next in line. |
Article 5 says ALL NATO states will come to the aid of a member state that is attacked. We'd be committed to go in. Otherwise what is the point of NATO. Any NATO state gets attacked, its kicking off in a big way. | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:51 - Feb 24 with 2196 views | pointofblue |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:49 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Article 5 says ALL NATO states will come to the aid of a member state that is attacked. We'd be committed to go in. Otherwise what is the point of NATO. Any NATO state gets attacked, its kicking off in a big way. |
And why Russia have acted now. If they had waited until Ukraine had joined NATO then they would have had a much bigger battle on their hands. | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:38 - Feb 24 with 2042 views | Trequartista |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 14:49 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Article 5 says ALL NATO states will come to the aid of a member state that is attacked. We'd be committed to go in. Otherwise what is the point of NATO. Any NATO state gets attacked, its kicking off in a big way. |
Yes we all know the rules, i’m wondering how committed we will be to them when push comes to shove. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 15:39]
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:45 - Feb 24 with 1993 views | pointofblue |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:38 - Feb 24 by Trequartista |
Yes we all know the rules, i’m wondering how committed we will be to them when push comes to shove. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 15:39]
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We’d hope that the deterrent is enough. The truth is America’s response would be key. If they decide to turn a blind eye, or just increase sanctions, then the rest of NATO won’t get involved and will crumble as an agency. | |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:52 - Feb 24 with 1945 views | Churchman |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:45 - Feb 24 by pointofblue |
We’d hope that the deterrent is enough. The truth is America’s response would be key. If they decide to turn a blind eye, or just increase sanctions, then the rest of NATO won’t get involved and will crumble as an agency. |
If you look at it from an American perspective, why should they get involved? For decades the west has hung off America’s military capability without doing much to help itself. Most European countries don’t pay the min agreed 2% GDP towards their own defence.
Why should America pick up the tab forever? It’s an argument used by that nut job Trump, but from their perspective it has validity if a country is turning inwards, as America is. | | | |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:58 - Feb 24 with 1913 views | ghostofescobar |
And 14,000 to 15,000 people have died (a quarter of them civilians), with perhaps another 30,000 injured since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. That's close to 50,000 killed or injured in modern day Europe due to a single, ongoing conflict, and yet not an awful lot has been said or done about it. I find that quite shocking. Putin invaded Ukraine (Crimea) in 2014 and we (the west) did little then. We may do more now by way of sanctions, but you are right, the physical invasion is not going to be fought by anyone else other than Ukrainians. |  |
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| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 16:02 - Feb 24 with 1882 views | pointofblue |
| Isn't the cold hard reality of the Ukraine situation that on 15:52 - Feb 24 by Churchman |
If you look at it from an American perspective, why should they get involved? For decades the west has hung off America’s military capability without doing much to help itself. Most European countries don’t pay the min agreed 2% GDP towards their own defence.
Why should America pick up the tab forever? It’s an argument used by that nut job Trump, but from their perspective it has validity if a country is turning inwards, as America is. |
In all honesty, if that is the case then the best thing America could do is withdraw from NATO. | |
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