| This is pretty striking 06:48 - Jul 19 with 3777 views | Herbivore |
In the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash I vividly recall us being told that we were all in this together and that we would all share in the pain of austerity equally. It seems that those who ultimately had the most responsibility for the crash in 2008 are the only ones to have seen improvements in their real terms pay since. What a kick in the teeth that those who crashed the economy have been allowed to coin it since, whilst those who had to pick up the pieces are now significantly worse off than they were in 2008.
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| This is pretty striking on 06:59 - Jul 19 with 2910 views | DJR |
But they're Masters of the Universe, as Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities would have it!
I imagine though that Premier League footballers would be way off the scale, but they never seem to come in for any criticism at all. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 7:01]
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| This is pretty striking on 07:18 - Jul 19 with 2830 views | Keno |
What did you expect from a wunch like that |  |
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| This is pretty striking on 07:21 - Jul 19 with 2808 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| This is pretty striking on 06:59 - Jul 19 by DJR |
But they're Masters of the Universe, as Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities would have it!
I imagine though that Premier League footballers would be way off the scale, but they never seem to come in for any criticism at all. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 7:01]
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Why would Premier League footballers come in for any criticism? They neither set their wages or caused the problem. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| This is pretty striking on 07:29 - Jul 19 with 2780 views | redrickstuhaart |
Its an odd graph.
Finance and business is a huge category. Business, arguably, is almost anything private sector. |  | | |
| This is pretty striking on 07:29 - Jul 19 with 2773 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| This is pretty striking on 06:59 - Jul 19 by DJR |
But they're Masters of the Universe, as Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities would have it!
I imagine though that Premier League footballers would be way off the scale, but they never seem to come in for any criticism at all. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 7:01]
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Yeah, no one is ever critical of how much footballers earn |  |
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| This is pretty striking on 07:37 - Jul 19 with 2736 views | DJR |
| This is pretty striking on 07:21 - Jul 19 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why would Premier League footballers come in for any criticism? They neither set their wages or caused the problem. |
Because it's evidence of a country and system with vast disparities in income and wealth.
The UK ranks poorly when it comes to economic inequality as the following shows, and sadly neither party plans to increase taxes on the wealthy, which might make society more equal and give much needed funds to crumbling public services.
https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945 | | | |
| This is pretty striking on 07:54 - Jul 19 with 2670 views | Herbivore |
| This is pretty striking on 07:29 - Jul 19 by redrickstuhaart |
Its an odd graph.
Finance and business is a huge category. Business, arguably, is almost anything private sector. |
The private sector is separated out, I'm guessing that is an average of the sectors it includes whereas business is sector specific and likely covers things like insurance, pensions etc. Could do with an explainer, I agree, but regardless it's still rather stark. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 12:20]
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| This is pretty striking on 08:04 - Jul 19 with 2616 views | DJR |
| This is pretty striking on 07:54 - Jul 19 by Herbivore |
The private sector is separated out, I'm guessing that is an average of the sectors it includes whereas business is sector specific and likely covers things like insurance, pensions etc. Could do with an explainer, I agree, but regardless it's still rather stark. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 12:20]
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If you look at the ONS data, the category appears to be financial and business services, so business services perhaps includes things like accountancy and legal firms, although I can find no actual definition. I would imagine insurance and pensions would be covered by financial services. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 8:06]
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| This is pretty striking on 08:26 - Jul 19 with 2520 views | WD19 |
| This is pretty striking on 07:54 - Jul 19 by Herbivore |
The private sector is separated out, I'm guessing that is an average of the sectors it includes whereas business is sector specific and likely covers things like insurance, pensions etc. Could do with an explainer, I agree, but regardless it's still rather stark. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 12:20]
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I suspect the story still stands, but it would have been nice to see this from 2007 (or some date immediately before the crash) rather than taking a low point for finance as the baseline. Is the increase recovery or real increase.
I suspect the latter, but would be good to see that cleanly.
A comment for the Guardian obvs, not you. |  | | |
| This is pretty striking on 09:32 - Jul 19 with 2411 views | Darth_Koont |
All makes perfect economic sense ...
Finance and business is a sector that gives politicians and parties friends/donors with deep pockets and wide networks.
Whereas representing the man in the street is a basic salary that will limit your career chances and earning potential. And you get paid that salary and expenses whether you represent the public or not.
Mug’s game. |  |
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| This is pretty striking on 09:43 - Jul 19 with 2361 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| This is pretty striking on 07:37 - Jul 19 by DJR |
Because it's evidence of a country and system with vast disparities in income and wealth.
The UK ranks poorly when it comes to economic inequality as the following shows, and sadly neither party plans to increase taxes on the wealthy, which might make society more equal and give much needed funds to crumbling public services.
https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945 |
No it's evidence of market forces. Is the UK any different to any other country (of a decent standard of football) when it comes to player wages?
I agree with increasing taxes on the wealthy generally, just think footballers is an odd group to lambast. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| This is pretty striking on 09:52 - Jul 19 with 2301 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is pretty striking on 08:26 - Jul 19 by WD19 |
I suspect the story still stands, but it would have been nice to see this from 2007 (or some date immediately before the crash) rather than taking a low point for finance as the baseline. Is the increase recovery or real increase.
I suspect the latter, but would be good to see that cleanly.
A comment for the Guardian obvs, not you. |
if you take ons total pay data for the financial and business service sector from its pre-crisis peak (feb 2008) and compare it to now, and then deflate it by rpi over the same period, then total real pay in that sector fell over that total period by 20%. clearly that start date emphasises the extent of any fall.
if you take a more typical start date - mar 2007 - and do the same calculation the real pay fall for the sector is 7.5%.
so the start date you choose** shapes the story you tell.
edit: and the price index you use. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 9:56]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is pretty striking on 10:02 - Jul 19 with 2253 views | DJR |
| This is pretty striking on 09:43 - Jul 19 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No it's evidence of market forces. Is the UK any different to any other country (of a decent standard of football) when it comes to player wages?
I agree with increasing taxes on the wealthy generally, just think footballers is an odd group to lambast. |
I suppose I go back to a time when I knocked on a door on Broke Hall estate during bob-a-job and Colin Harper (a First Division regular) answered the door.
Everything in those days was more egalitarian.
And it's interesting that CEOs get stick for salaries which are nothing like those of footballers. | | | |
| This is pretty striking on 11:07 - Jul 19 with 2138 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| This is pretty striking on 10:02 - Jul 19 by DJR |
I suppose I go back to a time when I knocked on a door on Broke Hall estate during bob-a-job and Colin Harper (a First Division regular) answered the door.
Everything in those days was more egalitarian.
And it's interesting that CEOs get stick for salaries which are nothing like those of footballers. |
CEOs get more stick for bonuses even when their businesses are failing.
You seem to be ignoring my points. Footballers don't set the price of footballer wages - that's the clubs desperately trying to outbid each other even it bankrupts themselves - and footballers have little to do with the state of the economy (unlike the CEOs of the country's biggest businesses). | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| This is pretty striking on 11:14 - Jul 19 with 2077 views | DJR |
| This is pretty striking on 11:07 - Jul 19 by The_Flashing_Smile |
CEOs get more stick for bonuses even when their businesses are failing.
You seem to be ignoring my points. Footballers don't set the price of footballer wages - that's the clubs desperately trying to outbid each other even it bankrupts themselves - and footballers have little to do with the state of the economy (unlike the CEOs of the country's biggest businesses). |
Whatever the reasons, unlike Peter Mandelson, I'm not intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich. And I don't like the way football has gone generally, when it comes to money, which means, for example, that the season after next many Ipswich games will be shifted from a Saturday.
But we can obviously agree to disagree. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:18]
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| This is pretty striking on 11:16 - Jul 19 with 2067 views | WD19 |
| This is pretty striking on 11:07 - Jul 19 by The_Flashing_Smile |
CEOs get more stick for bonuses even when their businesses are failing.
You seem to be ignoring my points. Footballers don't set the price of footballer wages - that's the clubs desperately trying to outbid each other even it bankrupts themselves - and footballers have little to do with the state of the economy (unlike the CEOs of the country's biggest businesses). |
At risk of being pedantic, CEO's don't set their own salaries either.....and don't have the security of long contracts if they decide they cant be bothered anymore. | | | |
| This is pretty striking on 11:17 - Jul 19 with 2051 views | WeWereZombies |
I wonder what that graph would look like if one or more of the banks in trouble had been allowed to go into insolvency proceedings (as almost any other business would have done) back in 2008/ It was obvious even at the time that the sector was never going to completely sober up. |  |
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| This is pretty striking on 11:19 - Jul 19 with 2027 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is pretty striking on 11:14 - Jul 19 by DJR |
Whatever the reasons, unlike Peter Mandelson, I'm not intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich. And I don't like the way football has gone generally, when it comes to money, which means, for example, that the season after next many Ipswich games will be shifted from a Saturday.
But we can obviously agree to disagree. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:18]
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I hope you'll make an exception for us all on here. This time next year Rodney, we'll all be millionaires (that benchmark probably needs updating now, as it'll only cover energy bills for a couple of years soon).
yeah, personally thing it's obscene the money in the game. But hey ho, people are prepared to pay a lot for their consumption of the game via Sky/BT Sports and all the other pay to watch routes will seem to have now. We reap what we sow and all that. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:19]
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| This is pretty striking on 11:27 - Jul 19 with 1990 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Since 2010 UK private sector real terms pay has fallen 3pc. In the same period MP real time pay fell only 0.6pc. We are all in it together… | | | |
| This is pretty striking on 11:33 - Jul 19 with 1975 views | blueasfook |
The usual stats massaging from the Grauniad designed to sucker in those who want to see the worst in every situation.
Congrats, they got you. |  |
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| This is pretty striking on 11:35 - Jul 19 with 1956 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| This is pretty striking on 11:14 - Jul 19 by DJR |
Whatever the reasons, unlike Peter Mandelson, I'm not intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich. And I don't like the way football has gone generally, when it comes to money, which means, for example, that the season after next many Ipswich games will be shifted from a Saturday.
But we can obviously agree to disagree. [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:18]
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We're not really disagreeing, you've just shifted your point. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| This is pretty striking on 11:36 - Jul 19 with 1940 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is pretty striking on 11:33 - Jul 19 by blueasfook |
The usual stats massaging from the Grauniad designed to sucker in those who want to see the worst in every situation.
Congrats, they got you. |
You can easily ignore the predictions that middle income Brits are going to be worse off than middle income Slovenians by next year, and middle income Poles by the end of the decade, then ?
[edit] Those predictions are from DJR's Financial Times link (for clarity.) [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:37]
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| This is pretty striking on 11:36 - Jul 19 with 1937 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| This is pretty striking on 11:16 - Jul 19 by WD19 |
At risk of being pedantic, CEO's don't set their own salaries either.....and don't have the security of long contracts if they decide they cant be bothered anymore. |
I didn't say CEO's do set their own salaries. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| This is pretty striking on 11:39 - Jul 19 with 1913 views | chicoazul |
| This is pretty striking on 11:36 - Jul 19 by WeWereZombies |
You can easily ignore the predictions that middle income Brits are going to be worse off than middle income Slovenians by next year, and middle income Poles by the end of the decade, then ?
[edit] Those predictions are from DJR's Financial Times link (for clarity.) [Post edited 19 Jul 2023 11:37]
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What’s wrong with that? Is there something so awful about the middle classes of Slovenia?
English exceptionalism and the class system is the true curse of this country. Many of you don’t even notice it most of the time. |  |
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| This is pretty striking on 11:48 - Jul 19 with 1887 views | WeWereZombies |
| This is pretty striking on 11:39 - Jul 19 by chicoazul |
What’s wrong with that? Is there something so awful about the middle classes of Slovenia?
English exceptionalism and the class system is the true curse of this country. Many of you don’t even notice it most of the time. |
Well I didn't say there was anything wrong with it (although I reflected at the time that I typed that someone might have an issue, perhaps mach rather than you..., but also that Eastern European countries are at a time of the cycle where state support is still strong and they have our level of dissonance to look forward to by the middle of the century.) The theme of this thread does seem to be that leviathan economies like the United States, with its in my opinion over demanding consumer engine, and the United Kingdom, with its disproportionately large banking and financial services sector, do not serve up that great a lifestyle for anyone but the richest. | |
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