| Labour/Starmer 13:32 - Jul 23 with 8591 views | DJR |
The last thread about Labour got pulled but it didn't run its course, so fingers crossed.
The comments below the line on this article are overwhelmingly hostile to Labour/Starmer, and these are Guardian readers.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/23/labour-stumble-uxbridge-sh
I read in the Times today that Labour's Director of Strategy, Deborah Mattinson is behind the volte face on ULEZ, but she is a polling/PR guru with an apparent obsession with the Red Wall, having written a book about it. And it looks like she is behind the rightward drift of Labour more generally.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/londoners-diary-tensions-labour-
My view is that the loss in Uxbridge was down more to a lack of enthusiasm for Labour, rather than ULEZ (something Ben Kentish on LBC thought too) but it is convenient to blame ULEZ, and throw Sadiq Khan under a bus, because it takes the heat off any inadequacies of Labour, whether in relation to its campaign in Uxbridge or the Labour offering more generally. I might add that Mattinson has, according to the Times, been at war for some months with Khan over ULEZ, so is no doubt seizing on this as the reason for defeat to strengthen her side of the argument.
The problem it seems to me is that pursuing the Red Wall to the point of obsession merely ends up with voters in other parts of the country, or in other demographics, feeling totally underwhelmed by Labour, which brings with it the risk of apathy and low turnout for Labour, something that a voter in Uxbridge suggested was the case. After all, it is very surprising, after all that Johnson has done, for there not to have been a much bigger backlash there against the Tories.
[Post edited 23 Jul 2023 13:37]
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| Labour/Starmer on 13:41 - Jul 23 with 3929 views | GlasgowBlue |
The electorate are so underwhelmed that Labour has had a twenty plus point lead for well over a year and the swing on Thursday, if repeated at a general election, would see Starmer as the next Prime Minister.
Take a look at the opinion polls the week before Starmer was elected Labour leader.
Ps. It wasn’t a loss in Uxbridge. It was a Tory seat that Labour failed to win. |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 13:48 - Jul 23 with 3912 views | giant_stow |
John Grace made an interesting if uncomfortable point the other day on the Uxbridge result:
"Carla Denyer, co-leader of the Green party, was cock-a-hoop. “Our 893 votes in Uxbridge made all the difference. Without us, Labour would have sneaked home. So I am delighted to say that the Green party has effectively made sure that none of the main parties will in future campaign on green issues. Going backwards is a massive step forward. Still, by 2030 there might not be much of the planet left anyway.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/21/sunak-starmer-and-davey-triumph |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 13:51 - Jul 23 with 3884 views | DJR |
| Labour/Starmer on 13:41 - Jul 23 by GlasgowBlue |
The electorate are so underwhelmed that Labour has had a twenty plus point lead for well over a year and the swing on Thursday, if repeated at a general election, would see Starmer as the next Prime Minister.
Take a look at the opinion polls the week before Starmer was elected Labour leader.
Ps. It wasn’t a loss in Uxbridge. It was a Tory seat that Labour failed to win. |
"if repeated at an election".
Don't forget the latest Observer poll shows Labour 17% ahead, but with Reform UK on 10% many of whom could return to the Tories come a general election, when the economy could be in a much better position than now, and we will have had a year or so more of the culture wars, where Labour tends to keep its head down.
Of course it certainly looks, as it stands, that Labour will be the biggest party, but if they seize power with so much apathy, it doesn't in my view augur well for them once in government. And in my view offering a more positive programme is likely to enthuse people, and perhaps push them to an absolute majority.
Anyway, even centrists like Andrew Rawnsley and Alistair Campbell are, like me, calling for Labour to be more bold.
Incidentally, the polls for Labour weren't much good for Labour a year or so ago (when there were doubts about Starmer), and in my view it is largely the fact that the Tories have self-destructed that has put Labour in the position they are now.
And aren't losing and failing to win in a single election the same thing, especially when Labour were the overwhelming favourites? [Post edited 23 Jul 2023 14:05]
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| Labour/Starmer on 14:14 - Jul 23 with 3796 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
You would think in the Selby election that absolutely anybody inclined to vote Labour will have done so and yet they only picked up 3,000 more votes while the tories lost 21,000. People need a vision to get behind and Starmer has nothing to offer. |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 14:29 - Jul 23 with 3759 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:14 - Jul 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You would think in the Selby election that absolutely anybody inclined to vote Labour will have done so and yet they only picked up 3,000 more votes while the tories lost 21,000. People need a vision to get behind and Starmer has nothing to offer. |
You’re comparing apples with oranges. The turnout for a by election is always far lower than the turnout for a general election, so the numbers cast for each party will be reflected in that.
To put it in real context: at the 2019 Gerald election, Labour polled just 24.6% of those who voted. On Thursday Labour polled 46%. Almost double. | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 14:30 - Jul 23 with 3760 views | Ryorry |
"Oh no, not again".
Everyone on here knows exactly where everyone else stands, no-one's going to change their minds, I've made the point endless times about the need to be pragmatic (no point in having wonderful policies to smash the electorate over the head with if you don't appeal to enough of them in enough places for them to vote you into power).
So I'll save myself the time engaging in the usual circular debate & spend it on making soup instead, sorry! (about 7Kg of veg to peel & chop). |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 14:31 - Jul 23 with 3750 views | jaykay |
| Labour/Starmer on 13:51 - Jul 23 by DJR |
"if repeated at an election".
Don't forget the latest Observer poll shows Labour 17% ahead, but with Reform UK on 10% many of whom could return to the Tories come a general election, when the economy could be in a much better position than now, and we will have had a year or so more of the culture wars, where Labour tends to keep its head down.
Of course it certainly looks, as it stands, that Labour will be the biggest party, but if they seize power with so much apathy, it doesn't in my view augur well for them once in government. And in my view offering a more positive programme is likely to enthuse people, and perhaps push them to an absolute majority.
Anyway, even centrists like Andrew Rawnsley and Alistair Campbell are, like me, calling for Labour to be more bold.
Incidentally, the polls for Labour weren't much good for Labour a year or so ago (when there were doubts about Starmer), and in my view it is largely the fact that the Tories have self-destructed that has put Labour in the position they are now.
And aren't losing and failing to win in a single election the same thing, especially when Labour were the overwhelming favourites? [Post edited 23 Jul 2023 14:05]
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did reform uk put up any candidates in the 3 by elections ? |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Labour/Starmer on 15:12 - Jul 23 with 3679 views | Zapers |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:30 - Jul 23 by Ryorry |
"Oh no, not again".
Everyone on here knows exactly where everyone else stands, no-one's going to change their minds, I've made the point endless times about the need to be pragmatic (no point in having wonderful policies to smash the electorate over the head with if you don't appeal to enough of them in enough places for them to vote you into power).
So I'll save myself the time engaging in the usual circular debate & spend it on making soup instead, sorry! (about 7Kg of veg to peel & chop). |
Thank goodness for your common sense Ryorry, enjoy your soup, sounds delicious! |  | | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 15:14 - Jul 23 with 3674 views | DJR |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:31 - Jul 23 by jaykay |
did reform uk put up any candidates in the 3 by elections ? |
They did in Selby and Somerton and Frome, where they each got about 3.4% of the vote.
I imagine they are the sort of people who once voted for UKIP, and supported Johnson, and they may be a bit peed off at the moment, so less inclined to vote. But I imagine they would vote Tory, if they voted at all, and could well be stirred up to vote Tory again at the next election, unless the Tories completely self-destruct. | | | |
| Labour/Starmer on 15:22 - Jul 23 with 3660 views | DJR |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:30 - Jul 23 by Ryorry |
"Oh no, not again".
Everyone on here knows exactly where everyone else stands, no-one's going to change their minds, I've made the point endless times about the need to be pragmatic (no point in having wonderful policies to smash the electorate over the head with if you don't appeal to enough of them in enough places for them to vote you into power).
So I'll save myself the time engaging in the usual circular debate & spend it on making soup instead, sorry! (about 7Kg of veg to peel & chop). |
That's fair enough, Ryorry, but I started a new thread because the previous thread was deleted when, in the light of three by-elections it still had some legs in it.
I suppose my amazement with things is that Labour have turned three very good election results into internecine warfare, which just plays into the hands of the Tories. I also hadn't fully appreciated the role of a little-known pollster in all that is going on.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/23/sadiq-khan-to-press-ahead-wi
Finally, my view is that the general thread would be a dull place if we can't discuss political developments, and I suppose I have more skin in the game, and reasons to be disappointed, as a party member.
But in future, I'll rein it in, and only respond to threads that others raise, if I feel inclined, rather than starting them. After all, the recent pulling of a thread, did make me seriously consider whether I should just give up commenting at all.
And maybe my time would also be better spent making soup. [Post edited 23 Jul 2023 15:26]
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| Labour/Starmer on 15:34 - Jul 23 with 3632 views | You_Bloo_Right |
As it's the man's birthday, how about an apposite quote from Raymon Chandler?
“Police business is a hell of a problem. It’s a good deal like politics. It asks for the highest type of men, and there’s nothing in it to attract the highest type of men. So we have to work with what we get...” |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 15:43 - Jul 23 with 3594 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:29 - Jul 23 by GlasgowBlue |
You’re comparing apples with oranges. The turnout for a by election is always far lower than the turnout for a general election, so the numbers cast for each party will be reflected in that.
To put it in real context: at the 2019 Gerald election, Labour polled just 24.6% of those who voted. On Thursday Labour polled 46%. Almost double. |
"You would think in the Selby election that absolutely anybody inclined to vote Labour will have done so......" | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 15:45 - Jul 23 with 3585 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:30 - Jul 23 by Ryorry |
"Oh no, not again".
Everyone on here knows exactly where everyone else stands, no-one's going to change their minds, I've made the point endless times about the need to be pragmatic (no point in having wonderful policies to smash the electorate over the head with if you don't appeal to enough of them in enough places for them to vote you into power).
So I'll save myself the time engaging in the usual circular debate & spend it on making soup instead, sorry! (about 7Kg of veg to peel & chop). |
You are letting all of your multi tasking sisters down Ryorry. | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 15:46 - Jul 23 with 3586 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour/Starmer on 15:22 - Jul 23 by DJR |
That's fair enough, Ryorry, but I started a new thread because the previous thread was deleted when, in the light of three by-elections it still had some legs in it.
I suppose my amazement with things is that Labour have turned three very good election results into internecine warfare, which just plays into the hands of the Tories. I also hadn't fully appreciated the role of a little-known pollster in all that is going on.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/23/sadiq-khan-to-press-ahead-wi
Finally, my view is that the general thread would be a dull place if we can't discuss political developments, and I suppose I have more skin in the game, and reasons to be disappointed, as a party member.
But in future, I'll rein it in, and only respond to threads that others raise, if I feel inclined, rather than starting them. After all, the recent pulling of a thread, did make me seriously consider whether I should just give up commenting at all.
And maybe my time would also be better spent making soup. [Post edited 23 Jul 2023 15:26]
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This is the difference between Labour and the Tories - Labour have excellent results but it sees them panic and look inwardly, Tories have terrible results and it emboldens them.
The scars run deep in the party, even when 20 points ahead of the polls |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 16:23 - Jul 23 with 3497 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour/Starmer on 13:48 - Jul 23 by giant_stow |
John Grace made an interesting if uncomfortable point the other day on the Uxbridge result:
"Carla Denyer, co-leader of the Green party, was cock-a-hoop. “Our 893 votes in Uxbridge made all the difference. Without us, Labour would have sneaked home. So I am delighted to say that the Green party has effectively made sure that none of the main parties will in future campaign on green issues. Going backwards is a massive step forward. Still, by 2030 there might not be much of the planet left anyway.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/21/sunak-starmer-and-davey-triumph |
Once again the sheer naivety, if not plain stupidity of the Greens is pn display.
The message that others have learnt from the Uxbridge by election is that if you campaign against 'green ishooos' a with with the Tory Party in this case............ you can get elected. And this wooly minded simpleton is their leader.
These vcrnks mirror the global cdebate, with their selfih view on housing in the UK. We already have somewhere decent to live so we can afford to oppose the same for thise not in our position.
That is the view of many thitrd world countries where they see the 'west' as having fcked up the planet in the first place not telling them they have to 'rein in' te consumption of the world's resoiurces.
And as to campaigning on green ishoooos' that is meaningless, if like Johnson they are forgotten once power is obtained, or like with the PR loons, they can be conveniently dumped so as to form a coalition.
The Scots nats should have called for another election rather than get into bed with the Greens whereby policies that were not voted for are foistered onto the populace by a party that only had !.29 of the constituency vote and 8% of the regional vote.
Not as some fairer democratic process, but to keep the Scots Nats in power. Government decided, as stated previously, not by voters but by a back room horse trading. A coalition with Labour will not deliver a muddy brown bunch of policies - bet red ones with a small corner of green representing a few concessions, which often annoy voters of the part of the coalition.
I suspect the Greens will poll higher than before, as with the Libdems in 2010, where they had made all manner of promises on the assumption they would not have to implement them. | | | |
| Labour/Starmer on 16:36 - Jul 23 with 3475 views | ronnyd |
| Labour/Starmer on 14:30 - Jul 23 by Ryorry |
"Oh no, not again".
Everyone on here knows exactly where everyone else stands, no-one's going to change their minds, I've made the point endless times about the need to be pragmatic (no point in having wonderful policies to smash the electorate over the head with if you don't appeal to enough of them in enough places for them to vote you into power).
So I'll save myself the time engaging in the usual circular debate & spend it on making soup instead, sorry! (about 7Kg of veg to peel & chop). |
Yum, sounds great, i'll post you a container to fill.  | | | |
| Labour/Starmer on 16:38 - Jul 23 with 3472 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour/Starmer on 13:48 - Jul 23 by giant_stow |
John Grace made an interesting if uncomfortable point the other day on the Uxbridge result:
"Carla Denyer, co-leader of the Green party, was cock-a-hoop. “Our 893 votes in Uxbridge made all the difference. Without us, Labour would have sneaked home. So I am delighted to say that the Green party has effectively made sure that none of the main parties will in future campaign on green issues. Going backwards is a massive step forward. Still, by 2030 there might not be much of the planet left anyway.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/21/sunak-starmer-and-davey-triumph |
depressingly lots of voters, including lots of key swing voters, won't support 'green' policies if they involve cost or inconvenience. i suspect that is going to increasingly be the tory attack line over the next 12 months. labour definitely needs to address the inequities involved in something like ulez. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour/Starmer on 17:43 - Jul 23 with 3361 views | DJR |
| Labour/Starmer on 15:46 - Jul 23 by itfcjoe |
This is the difference between Labour and the Tories - Labour have excellent results but it sees them panic and look inwardly, Tories have terrible results and it emboldens them.
The scars run deep in the party, even when 20 points ahead of the polls |
Absolutely, although I also don't get the impression Starmer has behind him people of the same quality as Blair (eg. Alastair Campbell). And who can forget their rapid rebuttal unit?
Indeed, Joe Twyman the founder of Deltapoll was on LBC this afternoon and suggested the reason for Labour not winning the seat was likely to be the fact that Brunel University, in the centre of the constituency, is on holiday. Why not make this the reason for the defeat, rather than blaming the defeat on an issue which is likely to come back to haunt Labour?
[Post edited 23 Jul 2023 17:55]
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| Labour/Starmer on 18:09 - Jul 23 with 3292 views | BlueBadger |
| Labour/Starmer on 17:43 - Jul 23 by DJR |
Absolutely, although I also don't get the impression Starmer has behind him people of the same quality as Blair (eg. Alastair Campbell). And who can forget their rapid rebuttal unit?
Indeed, Joe Twyman the founder of Deltapoll was on LBC this afternoon and suggested the reason for Labour not winning the seat was likely to be the fact that Brunel University, in the centre of the constituency, is on holiday. Why not make this the reason for the defeat, rather than blaming the defeat on an issue which is likely to come back to haunt Labour?
[Post edited 23 Jul 2023 17:55]
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Probably worth reminding everyone here that in 2020, no-one thought Starmer was a potential PM. At best, he was thought of as someone to detoxify Labour after the Corbyn fiasco and look realistically compete in 2029. |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 19:13 - Jul 23 with 3210 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour/Starmer on 18:09 - Jul 23 by BlueBadger |
Probably worth reminding everyone here that in 2020, no-one thought Starmer was a potential PM. At best, he was thought of as someone to detoxify Labour after the Corbyn fiasco and look realistically compete in 2029. |
Yep. At best he was thought of as a Kinnock type figure. Now he has gone from Kinnock, John Smith to Tony Blair in just two years.
On a side note, rumour has it your new boss is going to be Michael Gove. Bet you're thrilled. | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 20:46 - Jul 23 with 3111 views | HARRY10 |
If the cars in this expanded zone are only 10% of the total, then in the grand scheme of things they are not that great a problem, and the tax will be borne in the main by lower income voters who cannot afford the latest 'green' car.
How much carbon does a 'naughty ' car kick out compared to master Sunaks private jet, Airfix One ? Toxic fumes are like British fish, they have no recognition of boundaries. And it should be noted that possibly the biggest causes of air pollution in this area is the M25, which is conveniently just outside the expanded area
Those living in inner London often do not use a car, as there is little space to park one at home or where ever you are going to. Public transport is more than adequate and you get accustomed to walking to the bus stop/tube station. The same cannot be said of this expanded area.
I fully understand, and agree, with the thought underpinning this idea. But taxes need to be seen to be fair. Remember the Poll Tax. I suspect that most journeys in this area are taken as there is very little choice, so you will not reduce car use, but simply penalise voters with older cars. Much as with parking charges at hospitals.
Perhaps better would be to come up with figures that show where air pollutants come from in this area and highlight ways to reduce those causes rather than this blanket tax. | | | |
| Labour/Starmer on 20:55 - Jul 23 with 3102 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour/Starmer on 15:43 - Jul 23 by BanksterDebtSlave |
"You would think in the Selby election that absolutely anybody inclined to vote Labour will have done so......" |
So at the 2019 General Election, the turnout was 56,418 (71.7%). On Thursday, the turnout was 35,886 (44.8%).
By your logic, if anybody inclined to vote Labour would have done so on Thursday. So the missing 18,552 votes will be distributed between every other party but Labour.
Don't be so bloody silly. | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 21:16 - Jul 23 with 3068 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour/Starmer on 20:55 - Jul 23 by GlasgowBlue |
So at the 2019 General Election, the turnout was 56,418 (71.7%). On Thursday, the turnout was 35,886 (44.8%).
By your logic, if anybody inclined to vote Labour would have done so on Thursday. So the missing 18,552 votes will be distributed between every other party but Labour.
Don't be so bloody silly. |
I think it is a perfect illustration of how uninspired by Labour people are. If you lived in Selby wouldn't you have got out to vote for them?!? | |
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| Labour/Starmer on 21:17 - Jul 23 with 3062 views | Mullet |
I think there's little saving Sadiq Khan from the bus as it were. The levels of bile, racism and outright lies he's tarred with over everything means the noise around him is deceptive. In the same way we are told Londoners absolutely loved Boris, when the reality was much of the commentary came from non-Londoners etc.
Starmer has to appeal to those who might not vote Labour every time. The petulance and division of the self-proclaimed "left" of the supporters who still can't accept Corbyn was a sh1t leader are very tedious.
Whilst I don't think KS has played a blinder at every turn, he's dealing with an opposition who are so genuinely unhinged it's hard to entirely know what to make of them. What he has done which is incredibly clever is not give them too many soundbites or sound footholds with which to attack him with any credibility.
For all the "smear" crybabying done by the Corbynistas, it's laughable they don't recognise Keir has been smart enough not to play into the hands of the media and the cranks and become easily dismissed or styled as the "hard left" threat like Jezza was. People couldn't dream of a non-Tory dynasty for decades after 2019, yet he's been there picking at threads every PMQ as the Boris sh1theap came tumbling down.
Just having a Labour government will be massive for this country. Hurtling from the far-right Tory mess we are in to the exact opposite would be a disaster. It will need managing carefully and bridgebuilding across the electorate thanks to all the robbery and corruption allowed in the past decade and a bit. |  |
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| Labour/Starmer on 21:42 - Jul 23 with 2964 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour/Starmer on 21:17 - Jul 23 by Mullet |
I think there's little saving Sadiq Khan from the bus as it were. The levels of bile, racism and outright lies he's tarred with over everything means the noise around him is deceptive. In the same way we are told Londoners absolutely loved Boris, when the reality was much of the commentary came from non-Londoners etc.
Starmer has to appeal to those who might not vote Labour every time. The petulance and division of the self-proclaimed "left" of the supporters who still can't accept Corbyn was a sh1t leader are very tedious.
Whilst I don't think KS has played a blinder at every turn, he's dealing with an opposition who are so genuinely unhinged it's hard to entirely know what to make of them. What he has done which is incredibly clever is not give them too many soundbites or sound footholds with which to attack him with any credibility.
For all the "smear" crybabying done by the Corbynistas, it's laughable they don't recognise Keir has been smart enough not to play into the hands of the media and the cranks and become easily dismissed or styled as the "hard left" threat like Jezza was. People couldn't dream of a non-Tory dynasty for decades after 2019, yet he's been there picking at threads every PMQ as the Boris sh1theap came tumbling down.
Just having a Labour government will be massive for this country. Hurtling from the far-right Tory mess we are in to the exact opposite would be a disaster. It will need managing carefully and bridgebuilding across the electorate thanks to all the robbery and corruption allowed in the past decade and a bit. |
Next election for London Mayor is less than 10 months away can you see anyone other than Khan being the official Labour candidate?
Don't believe Starmer needs to appeal anyone other than traditional Labour voters. Corbyn failed because he scared too many traditional Labour voters away and just as importantly unintentionally persuade waivering Tory voters they had to vote out of fear of a Corbyn government.
The winners next time will be the Party that get their support to vote, the losers will be the party that fails to do so. |  |
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