| The case against proportional representation in one word....... 07:31 - Jul 5 with 5392 views | BlueNomad |
Reform |  | | |  |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:33 - Jul 5 with 3355 views | unbelievablue |
Would they get more votes under PR, or less? |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:34 - Jul 5 with 3349 views | Keno |
Ahem why is pr ‘suddenly’ an issue?
So of us have been saying it for years |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:51 - Jul 5 with 3277 views | Vegtablue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:33 - Jul 5 by unbelievablue |
Would they get more votes under PR, or less? |
14.3% of the votes, 0.6% of the seats presently.
Unlikely their percentage of the vote would have reduced by 13.7% under PR aha. Reform's huge underrepresentation in Parliament no doubt strengthens the case for voting system reform, as it should. I believe the Greens will receive a surge in votes once we become more democratic. |  | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:54 - Jul 5 with 3245 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
The representation of extreme views has always been the main argument against it ... that and the potential for shared governance (hung parliaments). The problem is that lack of representation often pushes more support for extreme views. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:56 - Jul 5 with 3221 views | GlasgowBlue |
Getting a result you don’t like isn’t a reason to continue with an undemocratic electoral system. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:00 - Jul 5 with 3185 views | positivity |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:56 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Getting a result you don’t like isn’t a reason to continue with an undemocratic electoral system. |
for the first time, the right wing have been affected by it.
hopefully that might mean more of a consensus for pr, which has traditionally been seen as a more left wing plea | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:00 - Jul 5 with 3181 views | bluelagos |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:56 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Getting a result you don’t like isn’t a reason to continue with an undemocratic electoral system. |
Am with Glassers.
As vile as Reform are, that is no reason to continue with an electoral system that denies millions of voters proper representation.
Indeed Greens are also hugely under represented.
The idea that fptp is ok if it means parties we don't like are kept out of power is incredibly dangerous.
If Starmer were to move on this issue I'd be amazed but very impressed. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:21 - Jul 5 with 3126 views | DJR |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:54 - Jul 5 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The representation of extreme views has always been the main argument against it ... that and the potential for shared governance (hung parliaments). The problem is that lack of representation often pushes more support for extreme views. |
But maybe at the next election Reform will get 34% of the vote, like Labour, and with a similarly large majority.
Would an unfettered Reform be a welcome development? [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 8:22]
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:27 - Jul 5 with 3080 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:00 - Jul 5 by bluelagos |
Am with Glassers.
As vile as Reform are, that is no reason to continue with an electoral system that denies millions of voters proper representation.
Indeed Greens are also hugely under represented.
The idea that fptp is ok if it means parties we don't like are kept out of power is incredibly dangerous.
If Starmer were to move on this issue I'd be amazed but very impressed. |
If we had real proportional representation then there wouldn’t bet a two party system. Both Labour and Tory would spit in left, centre left, centre right, right parties, with the Lib Dem’s peeing off into each of those and the Greens would become a real force.
More importantly, every person’s vote would count. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:27 - Jul 5 with 3074 views | positivity |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:21 - Jul 5 by DJR |
But maybe at the next election Reform will get 34% of the vote, like Labour, and with a similarly large majority.
Would an unfettered Reform be a welcome development? [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 8:22]
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agreed, pr would also have seen a sizeable progressive victory | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:27 - Jul 5 with 3076 views | DanTheMan |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:00 - Jul 5 by bluelagos |
Am with Glassers.
As vile as Reform are, that is no reason to continue with an electoral system that denies millions of voters proper representation.
Indeed Greens are also hugely under represented.
The idea that fptp is ok if it means parties we don't like are kept out of power is incredibly dangerous.
If Starmer were to move on this issue I'd be amazed but very impressed. |
Agree with you and others who have said similar.
I don't like Reform, but I imagine this result will leave people feeling further ticked off with our political system when they can a decent chunk of the vote and only a handful of seats.
Probably not going to be enough to force the issue though. And anyone who gets into power has an incentive not to do it either e.g. Labour under Blair
EDIT:
Remember folks, if you care, support the Electoral Reform Society - https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/ [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 8:28]
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:49 - Jul 5 with 2992 views | GeoffSentence |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:27 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
If we had real proportional representation then there wouldn’t bet a two party system. Both Labour and Tory would spit in left, centre left, centre right, right parties, with the Lib Dem’s peeing off into each of those and the Greens would become a real force.
More importantly, every person’s vote would count. |
Welcome to the lightside Glassers, good to have you onboard. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:53 - Jul 5 with 2967 views | blueasfook |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:56 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Getting a result you don’t like isn’t a reason to continue with an undemocratic electoral system. |
Indeed, like it or not they got a sizeable percentage of the vote. But those voters won't have a voice because of FPTP. Doesn't seem fair and democratic to me. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:54 - Jul 5 with 2940 views | Rimsy |
Didn't we get a vote on PR about a decade ago and rejected it? Or did I just imagine it? |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:02 - Jul 5 with 2868 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:21 - Jul 5 by DJR |
But maybe at the next election Reform will get 34% of the vote, like Labour, and with a similarly large majority.
Would an unfettered Reform be a welcome development? [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 8:22]
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But part of the reason Reform garnered so many votes is the current voting system.
We’ve had decades of structural issues in the UK, both socially and economically. Only the most partisan voter would deny both parties have failed to address these issues. FPTP has made both parties complacent. Now people are desperately looking for change, even if that means voting for populists. Even right wingers were happy to vote Reform even in the knowledge that would guarantee a Labour government. Loads of people have voted for smaller parties risking a wasted vote such is the discontent.
I’m confident Starmer will be a good PM, but if he’s not, the next election will probably see an even bigger swing to smaller parties. | | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:09 - Jul 5 with 2829 views | DanTheMan |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:54 - Jul 5 by Rimsy |
Didn't we get a vote on PR about a decade ago and rejected it? Or did I just imagine it? |
We had a vote on a bad form of PR, yes.
And the campaign against it was bloody awful.
Just emotive nonsense. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:31 - Jul 5 with 2743 views | Guthrum |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:54 - Jul 5 by Rimsy |
Didn't we get a vote on PR about a decade ago and rejected it? Or did I just imagine it? |
No. We had a vote on a form of vote transference, not a proportional representation system.
One gives a bit of extra weight to a voter's second and third preferences within a constituency, if circumstances allow. The other gives equal weight to every vote cast in the entire system and produces a result in proportion to that.
AV was fiddly and confusing, while at the same time not really providing a satisfying resolution to the "wasted votes" problem. Combined with lukewarm (at best) support from the Government which actually put forward the referendum, no wonder it was rejected. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:34 - Jul 5 with 2721 views | GeoffSentence |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:54 - Jul 5 by Rimsy |
Didn't we get a vote on PR about a decade ago and rejected it? Or did I just imagine it? |
No. We had a referendum on the Alternative Vote. That's not the same as PR.
It was rejected because no-one really wanted it, including the Lib-Dems who it was offered to as a half-arsed sop to coalition. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:38 - Jul 5 with 2696 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:56 - Jul 5 by GlasgowBlue |
Getting a result you don’t like isn’t a reason to continue with an undemocratic electoral system. |
With 4 out of every 10 not bothering to vote and only 1 in 3 of those who did voting for the winning party it is hardly democratic. Getting 1 in 5 to vote for you shouldn’t result in a landslide victory.
We need a better system and it isn’t pure Proportional Representation.
Things could be worse, as France will discover in a few days.
If we had the French system who knows what would happen in the second round. Only those who secure 50%+1 in round one would already be elected. Those who achieved less than 12.5% would be discarded and deals would be being struck on a local level, most likely Tories & Reformers agreeing only one of them would contest each seat.
Guess we should be thankful, for now, for the less than perfect FPTP. |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:55 - Jul 5 with 2627 views | DinDjarin |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:00 - Jul 5 by bluelagos |
Am with Glassers.
As vile as Reform are, that is no reason to continue with an electoral system that denies millions of voters proper representation.
Indeed Greens are also hugely under represented.
The idea that fptp is ok if it means parties we don't like are kept out of power is incredibly dangerous.
If Starmer were to move on this issue I'd be amazed but very impressed. |
They got more votes than the Libs but only 4 seats compared to 71 for the Libs |  | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:59 - Jul 5 with 2594 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:38 - Jul 5 by Pinewoodblue |
With 4 out of every 10 not bothering to vote and only 1 in 3 of those who did voting for the winning party it is hardly democratic. Getting 1 in 5 to vote for you shouldn’t result in a landslide victory.
We need a better system and it isn’t pure Proportional Representation.
Things could be worse, as France will discover in a few days.
If we had the French system who knows what would happen in the second round. Only those who secure 50%+1 in round one would already be elected. Those who achieved less than 12.5% would be discarded and deals would be being struck on a local level, most likely Tories & Reformers agreeing only one of them would contest each seat.
Guess we should be thankful, for now, for the less than perfect FPTP. |
"We need a better system and it isn’t pure Proportional Representation"
The French system isn't pure proportional representation:
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/types-of-voting-system/two-ro |  |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 09:59 - Jul 5 with 2592 views | Freddies_Ears |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 07:51 - Jul 5 by Vegtablue |
14.3% of the votes, 0.6% of the seats presently.
Unlikely their percentage of the vote would have reduced by 13.7% under PR aha. Reform's huge underrepresentation in Parliament no doubt strengthens the case for voting system reform, as it should. I believe the Greens will receive a surge in votes once we become more democratic. |
Absolutely agree, the Greens would do really well out of PR. Chances are, there would be a progressive majority of Lab, LD, Green (+ SNP if desperate). Likelihood of Torykip majority is very, very low. | | | |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:01 - Jul 5 with 2575 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:00 - Jul 5 by positivity |
for the first time, the right wing have been affected by it.
hopefully that might mean more of a consensus for pr, which has traditionally been seen as a more left wing plea |
It's not the first time. It took 4 million votes to elect a single UKip MP in 2015. | |
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:01 - Jul 5 with 2563 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 08:49 - Jul 5 by GeoffSentence |
Welcome to the lightside Glassers, good to have you onboard. |
Welcome? I've advocated PR for at least twenty years. [Post edited 5 Jul 2024 10:02]
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| The case against proportional representation in one word....... on 10:04 - Jul 5 with 2536 views | Trequartista |
You want to fix the voting system against parties you disagree with. Very anti-democratic. |  |
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