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“It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic party which has abandoned working-class people would find that the working class has abandoned them. First, it was the white working class, and now it is Latino and Black workers as well. While the Democratic leadership defends the status quo, the American people are angry and want change. And they’re right,”
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
I think it’s a very complicated picture. It feels many vote in a conservative type nature of not wanting change but a continuation of a 20th century type world. It feels a wrong premise to assume that people voting in a populist way do it under a form of duress or a longing for social justice.
I think it’s a very complicated picture. It feels many vote in a conservative type nature of not wanting change but a continuation of a 20th century type world. It feels a wrong premise to assume that people voting in a populist way do it under a form of duress or a longing for social justice.
It is complicated but broadly speaking, if the Dems are running on a platform of hope and a better world that’s a tough sell unless you have a great speaker such as Obama to deliver that message. Harris is not a great speaker.
Meanwhile the republicans run on hate - immigrants are eating my dogs was a literal headline for weeks despite being untrue - and people lap that up because despite living in the richest country in the world, many Americans are convinced the “illegals” are out to get them.
Add in the fact that politics has become absurdly tribal, and the continuing decline of old school media, and that lays the foundation for Trump to dominate.
How naive is he? ‘Policies that would help the average American’. I expect that was the last thing on anyone’s mind. Soundbites and tapping into emotions is where it’s at. People don’t give a monkeys about policies or even the real impacts of those policies. They believe what they are told to feel.
It is complicated but broadly speaking, if the Dems are running on a platform of hope and a better world that’s a tough sell unless you have a great speaker such as Obama to deliver that message. Harris is not a great speaker.
Meanwhile the republicans run on hate - immigrants are eating my dogs was a literal headline for weeks despite being untrue - and people lap that up because despite living in the richest country in the world, many Americans are convinced the “illegals” are out to get them.
Add in the fact that politics has become absurdly tribal, and the continuing decline of old school media, and that lays the foundation for Trump to dominate.
Things are going to get worse here.
I find it fascinating how the US is so tribal yet the the two “tribes” are not especially ideologically opposed. I’m watching Newsnight now and both sides seem a little unhinged, though I’ll concede Trump et al are off the charts.
Americans were told they were wrong to see the corrosion of Joe Biden’s abilities, and wrong to think that his replacement should not be decided in a giant backroom stitch-up. They were wrong not to enjoy the US economic miracle, and wrong not to worry about the future of democracy. Black and brown people and students were wrong to expect the party to oppose the bloodbath in Gaza. Latinos were ungrateful to desert the party of racial equality, while Black men were boneheaded not to back a Black woman. Everyone was wrong not to lap up the rallies opened by Beyoncé and Usher, the skits on Saturday Night Live and that clip of Barack Obama rapping. Why couldn’t they just feel the joy?
Look at the exit polls and you see a materialist explanation for what’s just happened: two out of three US voters report their economy is bad. And they have an excellent point. As I wrote last month, look at the data over the long run and two big trends stand out.
First, for the vast majority of US employees – whether middle class or working class, teacher or shop assistant – wages have flatlined. Not for four or even 20 years – but for most of the past half century. Strip out inflation, and average hourly earnings for seven out of 10 employees have barely risen since Richard Nixon was in the White House.
I can’t think of a more flammable political economy than a country with a few very rich people where most workers only get by because of low gas and food prices. Then what happens? A second blow. Covid peters out, the world comes out of lockdown and low-wage America is doused in that most combustible of economic substances: inflation. The entire system goes up – and Donald Trump spots his chance.
Faced with the flames, what would be a left-populist response? It wouldn’t be to resort to pedantry, to correct angry voters by showing them the aggregate figures – but that’s what many Democrat supporters did. Nor would it be to roll back all the benefits extended over the pandemic: the improved child tax credit, Medicaid and unemployment insurance. But that’s what Joe Biden did, even as he shovelled billions into infrastructure. The electoral result was that working- and middle-class voters peeled away from the Democrats. Kamala Harris won the most affluent voters, while Trump took those earning between $50,000 (£39,000) and $100,000 (£77,000). The two tied for those on $50,000 and below. So much for Harris being part of the most pro-worker government since the 1960s.
Just as the electorate professed fury with the entire political and economic system, she and the Democrats made themselves the system’s defenders. They weren’t change but more of the same. They worried about the future of “democracy”; they warned about disrupting free trade. Harris’s slogan of “we’re not going back” said it all: a campaign defined by being anti-Trump rather than for anything. A strategy intended to woo “moderates” left nearly everyone cold.
Americans were told they were wrong to see the corrosion of Joe Biden’s abilities, and wrong to think that his replacement should not be decided in a giant backroom stitch-up. They were wrong not to enjoy the US economic miracle, and wrong not to worry about the future of democracy. Black and brown people and students were wrong to expect the party to oppose the bloodbath in Gaza. Latinos were ungrateful to desert the party of racial equality, while Black men were boneheaded not to back a Black woman. Everyone was wrong not to lap up the rallies opened by Beyoncé and Usher, the skits on Saturday Night Live and that clip of Barack Obama rapping. Why couldn’t they just feel the joy?
Look at the exit polls and you see a materialist explanation for what’s just happened: two out of three US voters report their economy is bad. And they have an excellent point. As I wrote last month, look at the data over the long run and two big trends stand out.
First, for the vast majority of US employees – whether middle class or working class, teacher or shop assistant – wages have flatlined. Not for four or even 20 years – but for most of the past half century. Strip out inflation, and average hourly earnings for seven out of 10 employees have barely risen since Richard Nixon was in the White House.
I can’t think of a more flammable political economy than a country with a few very rich people where most workers only get by because of low gas and food prices. Then what happens? A second blow. Covid peters out, the world comes out of lockdown and low-wage America is doused in that most combustible of economic substances: inflation. The entire system goes up – and Donald Trump spots his chance.
Faced with the flames, what would be a left-populist response? It wouldn’t be to resort to pedantry, to correct angry voters by showing them the aggregate figures – but that’s what many Democrat supporters did. Nor would it be to roll back all the benefits extended over the pandemic: the improved child tax credit, Medicaid and unemployment insurance. But that’s what Joe Biden did, even as he shovelled billions into infrastructure. The electoral result was that working- and middle-class voters peeled away from the Democrats. Kamala Harris won the most affluent voters, while Trump took those earning between $50,000 (£39,000) and $100,000 (£77,000). The two tied for those on $50,000 and below. So much for Harris being part of the most pro-worker government since the 1960s.
Just as the electorate professed fury with the entire political and economic system, she and the Democrats made themselves the system’s defenders. They weren’t change but more of the same. They worried about the future of “democracy”; they warned about disrupting free trade. Harris’s slogan of “we’re not going back” said it all: a campaign defined by being anti-Trump rather than for anything. A strategy intended to woo “moderates” left nearly everyone cold.
that is extremely sensible. but to analyse the electoral back lash against biden, and the failure of the democrats to engage with that, and not to mention immigration also illustrates the problem.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
It is complicated but broadly speaking, if the Dems are running on a platform of hope and a better world that’s a tough sell unless you have a great speaker such as Obama to deliver that message. Harris is not a great speaker.
Meanwhile the republicans run on hate - immigrants are eating my dogs was a literal headline for weeks despite being untrue - and people lap that up because despite living in the richest country in the world, many Americans are convinced the “illegals” are out to get them.
Add in the fact that politics has become absurdly tribal, and the continuing decline of old school media, and that lays the foundation for Trump to dominate.
“It should come as no great surprise that a Democratic party which has abandoned working-class people would find that the working class has abandoned them. First, it was the white working class, and now it is Latino and Black workers as well. While the Democratic leadership defends the status quo, the American people are angry and want change. And they’re right,”
that's a great quote and by itself impossible to disagree with. but the conclusions sanders then draws about what the answers are is pure confirmation bias. harris didn't lose because of her stance on israel, for example.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
that is extremely sensible. but to analyse the electoral back lash against biden, and the failure of the democrats to engage with that, and not to mention immigration also illustrates the problem.
I did say this on another thread.
"And at the end of the day, "it's the economy, stupid" that appears to have won the day, with a huge dollop of concerns about immigration thrown in."
As it is, it will be interesting to see what Trump is actually able to do about immigration, and I don't think he will be able to solve the economic problems which mean the average American is not much better of in real terms that they were fifty years ago.
I think the general public are sick to the back teeth of being called right wing nazis by left wing nazis.
I really think it's as simple as that.
exactly this. the huge tactical errors with the way democrats have dealt with trump are calling him a fascist, calling his supporters deplorables etc etc (and even when they bite their tongue and avoid the words making it clear that's what they really think), and initiating an orgy of legal prosecutions. they are so far lost in group think and self righteous anger that they failed to see how helpful to trump these things were.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2024 10:40]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
I think the general public are sick to the back teeth of being called right wing nazis by left wing nazis.
I really think it's as simple as that.
I think that goes both ways.
There is almost zero tolerance of people with different political views anymore. I partly blame social media - people are more prepared to be bullish with strong views, and others much more willing to aggressively challenge those views, knowing that they have a degree of anonymity (or safe distance!) From those they are engaging with.
I was born underwater, I dried out in the sun.
I started humping volcanoes baby, when I was too young.
"And at the end of the day, "it's the economy, stupid" that appears to have won the day, with a huge dollop of concerns about immigration thrown in."
As it is, it will be interesting to see what Trump is actually able to do about immigration, and I don't think he will be able to solve the economic problems which mean the average American is not much better of in real terms that they were fifty years ago.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2024 10:11]
But if they think they are better off and trump tells them they are better off, that is all they need. only 4 years and 2 months to go.
There is almost zero tolerance of people with different political views anymore. I partly blame social media - people are more prepared to be bullish with strong views, and others much more willing to aggressively challenge those views, knowing that they have a degree of anonymity (or safe distance!) From those they are engaging with.
TikTok videos that last about 20 seconds claiming that one party "destroys" the other with no context or retort really do my head in, and are turning people into ignorant idiots incapable of critical thinking or nuanced debate.
It appears to me that the Chinese invented TikTok not to spy on the West, but to turn future generations in to simpletons.
There is almost zero tolerance of people with different political views anymore. I partly blame social media - people are more prepared to be bullish with strong views, and others much more willing to aggressively challenge those views, knowing that they have a degree of anonymity (or safe distance!) From those they are engaging with.
Its interesting though, we find here, on TWTD, there is actually quite a lot of tolerance of opposing views, when they are discussed through a neutral prism... often though, a polarising figure will come in, and before long, the conversation becomes divisive and fraught, and is no longer about solving the problem, but about winning the argument.
Now imagine those discussions on a national or global scale, but with the polarising figures being given a loudhailer and the ability to jump into any conversation that looks like it might be too conciliatory.
In the old days, we'd have had these discussions down the pub, or over dinner, or in the office at the kettle or water cooler, and although we might not have all agreed, we'd know the background of the people we were discussing things with, and be able to contextualise their comments. Now, we're just arguing with usernames, without the context of circumstance, and so before you know it, we're arguing without understanding.
the solution? Stop debating on the internet, and return to the pubs... this will also have the benefit of stopping the closure of some of our great institutions :-)
I think the general public are sick to the back teeth of being called right wing nazis by left wing nazis.
I really think it's as simple as that.
I am of the left but would never describe anyone (other than people like members of the EDL) as fascists or Nazis.
As regards Trump, I think the best description for him is demagogue, a word that no longer seems in common use.
This from Wikipedia.
A demagogue is a political leader in a democracy who gains popularity by arousing the common people against elites, especially through oratory that whips up the passions of crowds, appealing to emotion by scapegoating out-groups, exaggerating dangers to stoke fears, lying for emotional effect, or other rhetoric that tends to drown out reasoned deliberation and encourage fanatical popularity. Demagogues overturn established norms of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.
I am of the left but would never describe anyone (other than people like members of the EDL) as fascists or Nazis.
As regards Trump, I think the best description for him is demagogue, a word that no longer seems in common use.
This from Wikipedia.
A demagogue is a political leader in a democracy who gains popularity by arousing the common people against elites, especially through oratory that whips up the passions of crowds, appealing to emotion by scapegoating out-groups, exaggerating dangers to stoke fears, lying for emotional effect, or other rhetoric that tends to drown out reasoned deliberation and encourage fanatical popularity. Demagogues overturn established norms of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.
There is almost zero tolerance of people with different political views anymore. I partly blame social media - people are more prepared to be bullish with strong views, and others much more willing to aggressively challenge those views, knowing that they have a degree of anonymity (or safe distance!) From those they are engaging with.
Social media has a lot to do with it, as do entitled feckwits.
Out of my close friends I think we have slightly more left leaning members but we all get on fine and we can chew the fat, discuss things, laugh at each other etc etc.
I totally accept and respect anyones point of view and political stance, unless they are extremists - from either side.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Problem is the Dems can't lurch to far to Bernies ground. Whilst someone of his ilk might capture the attention of uoung voters it won't be enough. Building a campaign around his philosophy will result in cries of communism. We all know that's not the case but the average Americans perception of what communism is is so far removed from the reality. Older (and there are many) voters in the US are still v scared of anything that gets labeled communism and would (IMO) run a mile. It's a lazy objection TBH but it sticks.
They have no Idea what left wing really is though do they
I am of the left but would never describe anyone (other than people like members of the EDL) as fascists or Nazis.
As regards Trump, I think the best description for him is demagogue, a word that no longer seems in common use.
This from Wikipedia.
A demagogue is a political leader in a democracy who gains popularity by arousing the common people against elites, especially through oratory that whips up the passions of crowds, appealing to emotion by scapegoating out-groups, exaggerating dangers to stoke fears, lying for emotional effect, or other rhetoric that tends to drown out reasoned deliberation and encourage fanatical popularity. Demagogues overturn established norms of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2024 11:21]
I'm broadly nearer the left and voted for Brexit. I must be nazi + as well as a raging antisemite!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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