| Some guidance required 16:04 - Jan 10 with 7727 views | Reus30 |
I think I have been clear over the past 12 months plus about my working situation.
I had a meeting with a counterpart who is very close with the big boss and he made some very strange comments about my position within the business.
Basically he ruined my christmas by making me fear for my job.
Now, this sort of weird behaviour where it seems I am being pushed out has continued to the point where I am getting very angry about it - I feel it is intentional. On several occasions this week, I thought about requesting a meeting with the big boss straight up to ask wtf is going on. Just to add, me and the BB have a good working relationship albeit it has been a bit strained recently.
I have had a thought, if this is the case (and I do think it is), is it wise of me to have a discussion and request redundancy and PILON and just move on?
To be honest, life has drastically changed over Xmas and I really considering just packing up and moving away from my current situation. My support system is now non-existent and I just think, I need a break - take the money, get on a plane and calm tf down.
So TWTD, would you just go for it and shoot straight and try and get a payout? Should be another to live off for 5 months as a statutory minimum. [Post edited 10 Jan 16:04]
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| Some guidance required on 16:11 - Jan 10 with 5132 views | DJR |
Really sorry to hear that.
Assuming you are not a union member, does you firm have a HR department who might be the best first point of call to get to the bottom of things?
Or do you have a colleague who might be able to advise and support you, or act as an intermediary? [Post edited 10 Jan 16:12]
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| Some guidance required on 16:15 - Jan 10 with 5076 views | Reus30 |
| Some guidance required on 16:11 - Jan 10 by DJR |
Really sorry to hear that.
Assuming you are not a union member, does you firm have a HR department who might be the best first point of call to get to the bottom of things?
Or do you have a colleague who might be able to advise and support you, or act as an intermediary? [Post edited 10 Jan 16:12]
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Unfortunately not, small business and the person that deals with the HR side of things is the clown dogging me.
Not really either due to my position so as you can imagine it's a right bloody pickle. | | | |
| Some guidance required on 16:22 - Jan 10 with 5024 views | blueasfook |
| Some guidance required on 16:15 - Jan 10 by Reus30 |
Unfortunately not, small business and the person that deals with the HR side of things is the clown dogging me.
Not really either due to my position so as you can imagine it's a right bloody pickle. |
Take the money and move on. No job is worth being unhappy. In my experience, its the best move to make. You usually end up with a better job and a bunch of money. Win, win. |  |
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| Some guidance required on 16:29 - Jan 10 with 4979 views | positivity |
agree with both the above, it's a scary move to leave somewhere you've been a while, but not worth the stress of staying, these things rarely get better without a change in personnel.
only thing extra i'd advise is to read up on your rights, so they don't force you to accept less than you're entitled to |  |
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| Some guidance required on 16:30 - Jan 10 with 4967 views | Illinoisblue |
| Some guidance required on 16:22 - Jan 10 by blueasfook |
Take the money and move on. No job is worth being unhappy. In my experience, its the best move to make. You usually end up with a better job and a bunch of money. Win, win. |
100% this. |  |
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| Some guidance required on 16:33 - Jan 10 with 4916 views | Reus30 |
So go for the approach? I don't even know if this is theoretically on the table.
To be honest, it's such a weird situation. I won't go into too much delete as I don't want to dox incase but with each passing day, responsibilities are shifting and some of the behaviour is making me angry to the point of me wanting to explode with rage (which I think might be the purpose of it).
If I approach, my cards have been shown in that case and they may push further underhand tactics to get me out without any sort of payout. But if I don't ask wtf is going on, I'm sat here in limbo more and more annoyed and unproductive. | | | |
| Some guidance required on 16:34 - Jan 10 with 4894 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Is there a case for suing them for constructive dismissal? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Some guidance required on 16:43 - Jan 10 with 4827 views | Nutkins_Return |
| Some guidance required on 16:33 - Jan 10 by Reus30 |
So go for the approach? I don't even know if this is theoretically on the table.
To be honest, it's such a weird situation. I won't go into too much delete as I don't want to dox incase but with each passing day, responsibilities are shifting and some of the behaviour is making me angry to the point of me wanting to explode with rage (which I think might be the purpose of it).
If I approach, my cards have been shown in that case and they may push further underhand tactics to get me out without any sort of payout. But if I don't ask wtf is going on, I'm sat here in limbo more and more annoyed and unproductive. |
Not trying to be captain sensi Le but I would do you homework on the market. Either look for another job now (and you can be a bit picky) or if you are set on a bit of travel/sun then at least see what the market is like so you have some confidence what you would return to.
If they are trying to force you out then it would be odd for them to be happy to just pay you redundancy. I would think they would just offer you that now if that is something they are happy to do and they need you to leave.
You could always take some legal advice with what they are doing etc so you have that up you sleeve when you do approach them. I.e. it's go to the point you felt you had to take some advice (should things be going the wrong way in the conversation). | |
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| Some guidance required on 16:46 - Jan 10 with 4815 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Some guidance required on 16:34 - Jan 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Is there a case for suing them for constructive dismissal? |
Accidentally leave a webpage open for employment lawyers. See if it bring sthem into the open. | | | |
| Some guidance required on 16:49 - Jan 10 with 4806 views | Guthrum |
How much of the pressure is coming from the couterpart and how much directly from the boss? Do you have a clear idea on what the boss' thoughts are, or is it all second hand/inferred?
A meeting might clear things up if you're being undercut by a colleague. Or simply get everything into the open.
Either way, be careful. Make sure agreements are on your terms as much as theirs and they don't try any shenanigans to force you out. |  |
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| Some guidance required on 16:51 - Jan 10 with 4784 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Some guidance required on 16:49 - Jan 10 by Guthrum |
How much of the pressure is coming from the couterpart and how much directly from the boss? Do you have a clear idea on what the boss' thoughts are, or is it all second hand/inferred?
A meeting might clear things up if you're being undercut by a colleague. Or simply get everything into the open.
Either way, be careful. Make sure agreements are on your terms as much as theirs and they don't try any shenanigans to force you out. |
Aslo- how long in the job? Do you have rights yet? | | | |
| Some guidance required on 16:57 - Jan 10 with 4733 views | Reus30 |
| Some guidance required on 16:49 - Jan 10 by Guthrum |
How much of the pressure is coming from the couterpart and how much directly from the boss? Do you have a clear idea on what the boss' thoughts are, or is it all second hand/inferred?
A meeting might clear things up if you're being undercut by a colleague. Or simply get everything into the open.
Either way, be careful. Make sure agreements are on your terms as much as theirs and they don't try any shenanigans to force you out. |
Nothing direct from the boss, all inferred aside from one comment. Not a clue what he is thinking but they are very very close personal and professional basis.
Had a sit down last week, little bit frosty but might just be my brain. Wanted to wait to see how this week panned out before approaching about what happened pre-xmas.
10 years plus employed so I have rights and I'm locked in on a long symmetrical notice period. I am thinking balls to the wall.
Market seems to be improving but if I get out, I can live wherever I want. [Post edited 10 Jan 17:34]
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| Some guidance required on 16:59 - Jan 10 with 4704 views | Reus30 |
| Some guidance required on 16:43 - Jan 10 by Nutkins_Return |
Not trying to be captain sensi Le but I would do you homework on the market. Either look for another job now (and you can be a bit picky) or if you are set on a bit of travel/sun then at least see what the market is like so you have some confidence what you would return to.
If they are trying to force you out then it would be odd for them to be happy to just pay you redundancy. I would think they would just offer you that now if that is something they are happy to do and they need you to leave.
You could always take some legal advice with what they are doing etc so you have that up you sleeve when you do approach them. I.e. it's go to the point you felt you had to take some advice (should things be going the wrong way in the conversation). |
Valid point regarding approaching me in the first instance about redundancy.
However, nothing seems to be normal here and I've seen people get frozen out before. Difference is, I have a long af notice and rights. | | | |
| Some guidance required on 17:01 - Jan 10 with 4691 views | BloomBlue |
Not sure about asking for redundancy. Things maybe different at your company, but when I worked (many,many years ago) if someone asked for redundancy we said no, and just kept f**king them off. The idea being, if someone was asking for redundancy they're already at that stage of really thinking about leaving so keep plssing them off, and they will resign, saving the company a redundancy package. |  | | |
| Some guidance required on 17:06 - Jan 10 with 4658 views | Nutkins_Return |
| Some guidance required on 16:33 - Jan 10 by Reus30 |
So go for the approach? I don't even know if this is theoretically on the table.
To be honest, it's such a weird situation. I won't go into too much delete as I don't want to dox incase but with each passing day, responsibilities are shifting and some of the behaviour is making me angry to the point of me wanting to explode with rage (which I think might be the purpose of it).
If I approach, my cards have been shown in that case and they may push further underhand tactics to get me out without any sort of payout. But if I don't ask wtf is going on, I'm sat here in limbo more and more annoyed and unproductive. |
Not trying to be captain sensi Le but I would do you homework on the market. Either look for another job now (and you can be a bit picky) or if you are set on a bit of travel/sun then at least see what the market is like so you have some confidence what you would return to.
If they are trying to force you out then it would be odd for them to be happy to just pay you redundancy. I would think they would just offer you that now if that is something they are happy to do and they need you to leave.
You could always take some legal advice with what they are doing etc so you have that up you sleeve when you do approach them. I.e. it's go to the point you felt you had to take some advice (should things be going the wrong way in the conversation). | |
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| Some guidance required on 17:35 - Jan 10 with 4580 views | Pinewoodblue |
Sounds like a breakdown in working relationship if so redundancy may not come an option.
Personally would approach the boss man, express concerns and ask if there is a way out of the situation. Look for what I think in technical terms is called a mutual separation, but have an idea first what sort of financial settlement you need.
You can expect to be asked to sign a confidentiality agreement.
Sounds like you don’t want to be there and the feeling is mutual. |  |
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| Some guidance required on 17:40 - Jan 10 with 4551 views | DJR |
| Some guidance required on 16:34 - Jan 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Is there a case for suing them for constructive dismissal? |
Constructive dismissal isn't necessarily an easy route to go down, and from what the OP says it doesn't appear that there would be much of substance to base a claim on, although it certainly sounds like something nefarious is going on.
I would however suggest keeping a note of what is going on, describing particular incidents and the date they occurred on. [Post edited 10 Jan 17:45]
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| Some guidance required on 17:45 - Jan 10 with 4525 views | Durovigutum |
| Some guidance required on 16:57 - Jan 10 by Reus30 |
Nothing direct from the boss, all inferred aside from one comment. Not a clue what he is thinking but they are very very close personal and professional basis.
Had a sit down last week, little bit frosty but might just be my brain. Wanted to wait to see how this week panned out before approaching about what happened pre-xmas.
10 years plus employed so I have rights and I'm locked in on a long symmetrical notice period. I am thinking balls to the wall.
Market seems to be improving but if I get out, I can live wherever I want. [Post edited 10 Jan 17:34]
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Are you putting 2+2 together and getting 17? Will that immediate negativity impact any potential conversations and make things immediately hostile?
I went through a PILON 14 months ago. COE was leaving, new CEO coming in, I've always had trouble when my immediate boss leaves as the new one thinks I'm after their job (and/or they are a prize wazzock) so I thought it easier to give them the space to choose their own SLT colleague and jumped. The contract will make the minimum clear, but the tax free element is far lower than last time I did this back in 2010. I went through the potential options with them and had the pension conts paid instead (as well as a few other bits). I was happy to go, I'd outgrown them and had other fish to fry.
The job market is slow at the moment and will get slower until the new financial year. I'm not sure it will pick up much then either - the employers NI rise has hit many companies who have frozen recruitment and even postponed potential bonuses to make up the shortfall. That said, it is (as always) sector dependent where some are still buoyant - if you are in a sector doing OK then good news. |  | | |
| Some guidance required on 18:01 - Jan 10 with 4399 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Not much to add on the employment front, and also don't want to pry into how your private circumstances have changed. However, I would say that if things have been difficult and changeable in your private life, it might be possible that you are feeling paranoid or looking for negatives in your work life, too. It's natural for big life events to colour our perspective.
It might just be a need to clear the air with the big boss and make sure you are on the same wavelength.
Possibly worth analysing if this might simply be the issue, if it means avoiding lighting a match under your job situation. .
Good luck, Reus30. I hope things work out well for you. |  | | |
| Some guidance required on 18:04 - Jan 10 with 4302 views | bsw72 |
I'd be careful on making decisions based on a few comments without being sure of the intent to then going to ask about redundancy.
Generally speaking as an experienced manager if an individual who the org was trying to exit (for whatever reason) came to ask about redundancy, the org then knows they have the upper hand and could turn in the companies favour through negotiations or HR activitiy.
Don't show your hand early and don't make a major decision if you are not sure if you are doing it without the full story.
I would personally ask for a meeting with your boss (not BB) and give them an opportunity to answer your concerns. Plan what you are going to say, don't get emotional but highlight how the comments made are impacting you and how you have interpreted them. Lead the conversation, and ask direct questions.
- Clearly detail the comments made, and your interpretation of them
- Ask whether the role at risk, or other changes being made which impact my role
- Are there any performance issues which he needs to discuss with me
- Highlight the impact this is having on your mental wellbeing, but that you have invested 10 years of your career here, and are not willing to give up on that (intent to stay)
I have sat on both sides of the table - being exited and doing the exiting. Sometimes you have to play a longer game to get the maximum benefit. |  | | |
| Some guidance required on 18:24 - Jan 10 with 4121 views | gosblue |
| Some guidance required on 16:11 - Jan 10 by DJR |
Really sorry to hear that.
Assuming you are not a union member, does you firm have a HR department who might be the best first point of call to get to the bottom of things?
Or do you have a colleague who might be able to advise and support you, or act as an intermediary? [Post edited 10 Jan 16:12]
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Bad managers ruin good jobs. I've had a couple of similar experiences in my long career. It's no longer a problem for me as I have a couple of nice retirement jobs and I don't need the money. On one occasion, I sat down with the boss and we agreed to part ways. Both parties signed a Non-disclosure agreement (NDA) and I left with six months pay. On the other occasion, I found a job elsewhere and left behind a possible redundancy package that wouldn't have been available for at least six months. Either way, ten years is usually too long in one job without future prospects. Good luck with your future happiness my friend. | | | |
| Some guidance required on 18:29 - Jan 10 with 4091 views | WicklowBlue |
| Some guidance required on 17:40 - Jan 10 by DJR |
Constructive dismissal isn't necessarily an easy route to go down, and from what the OP says it doesn't appear that there would be much of substance to base a claim on, although it certainly sounds like something nefarious is going on.
I would however suggest keeping a note of what is going on, describing particular incidents and the date they occurred on. [Post edited 10 Jan 17:45]
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Not sure what it is like in the UK but in Ireland the path is to go to the WRC (Workplace Relations Committee) who regularly award against companies here for not following protocols/procedures.
Agree with your second point, document absolutely everything word for word. |  | | |
| Some guidance required on 18:40 - Jan 10 with 3956 views | Churchman |
I’m sorry you are having a tough time of it. Lots of good thoughts and ideas in this thread. My initial thoughts in no particular order are:
1. Keep a thorough record of everything that’s happening.
2. Be uber professional. If you get treated oddly/ experience strange comments, be even more professional and polite. If there is any provoking going on let it fall on stony ground. If they raise their voice, you lower yours. They will be forced to copy you or be embarrassed. Be patient.
3. Listen. It’s a skill much neglected. You cannot learn what people are thinking or what’s behind the words without listening.
4. If somebody is provoking, pause before answering and avoid verbal tennis. You can always ambush or pick a fight at a time of your choosing.
5. Write an up to date CV. It’ll help you, not least in terms of confidence when you realise what you have done and how many skills you have. It’ll also help re the future. Everyone should keep a CV up to date and retain old copies. It costs nothing but a bit of time. Fashion in CV writing changes but there’s loads of info out there.
6. Start looking at what opportunities are out there. Think about your network, maybe register with a few agencies, Linked In etc. They will probably not be that useful, but for the cost of a little time you never know.
7. If you decide to have a meeting, be very clear on what you want from it and how you are going to conduct it. Plan it and don’t lose control of it.
8. Do not rush into any decisions. Make them at a time of your choosing for the right reasons. People come and go and if you’ve been there 10 years you must like some aspects of the job and the company.
9. After any length of time you become ‘institutionalised’. Everyone does and leaving can be daunting. It is easier to do nothing than something and that’s not always the right decision. If you have annual leave, you might want to take a clear week out if you can just to clear your mind and look at things more objectively.
10. Remember - The worst any employer can do is force you out or kick you out. They can’t kill you or sentence you to a galley oar. So it’s their loss. There’s always something, somewhere new out there to experience.
Anyway, good luck. You will be fine. |  | | |
| Some guidance required on 18:51 - Jan 10 with 3823 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Some guidance required on 18:40 - Jan 10 by Churchman |
I’m sorry you are having a tough time of it. Lots of good thoughts and ideas in this thread. My initial thoughts in no particular order are:
1. Keep a thorough record of everything that’s happening.
2. Be uber professional. If you get treated oddly/ experience strange comments, be even more professional and polite. If there is any provoking going on let it fall on stony ground. If they raise their voice, you lower yours. They will be forced to copy you or be embarrassed. Be patient.
3. Listen. It’s a skill much neglected. You cannot learn what people are thinking or what’s behind the words without listening.
4. If somebody is provoking, pause before answering and avoid verbal tennis. You can always ambush or pick a fight at a time of your choosing.
5. Write an up to date CV. It’ll help you, not least in terms of confidence when you realise what you have done and how many skills you have. It’ll also help re the future. Everyone should keep a CV up to date and retain old copies. It costs nothing but a bit of time. Fashion in CV writing changes but there’s loads of info out there.
6. Start looking at what opportunities are out there. Think about your network, maybe register with a few agencies, Linked In etc. They will probably not be that useful, but for the cost of a little time you never know.
7. If you decide to have a meeting, be very clear on what you want from it and how you are going to conduct it. Plan it and don’t lose control of it.
8. Do not rush into any decisions. Make them at a time of your choosing for the right reasons. People come and go and if you’ve been there 10 years you must like some aspects of the job and the company.
9. After any length of time you become ‘institutionalised’. Everyone does and leaving can be daunting. It is easier to do nothing than something and that’s not always the right decision. If you have annual leave, you might want to take a clear week out if you can just to clear your mind and look at things more objectively.
10. Remember - The worst any employer can do is force you out or kick you out. They can’t kill you or sentence you to a galley oar. So it’s their loss. There’s always something, somewhere new out there to experience.
Anyway, good luck. You will be fine. |
Excellent summary of other posts and pearls of wisdom of your own, there, Churchers. | | | |
| Some guidance required on 19:06 - Jan 10 with 3764 views | SmithersJones |
| Some guidance required on 16:57 - Jan 10 by Reus30 |
Nothing direct from the boss, all inferred aside from one comment. Not a clue what he is thinking but they are very very close personal and professional basis.
Had a sit down last week, little bit frosty but might just be my brain. Wanted to wait to see how this week panned out before approaching about what happened pre-xmas.
10 years plus employed so I have rights and I'm locked in on a long symmetrical notice period. I am thinking balls to the wall.
Market seems to be improving but if I get out, I can live wherever I want. [Post edited 10 Jan 17:34]
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Seems to me this is the key issue. Is the BB actually annoyed with you or is your colleague trying to destabilise things? It does happen and it's horrible. Until you know this there's a real danger that you take the wrong route.
My advice would be to go to the BB and have a conversation along the lines of "is everything ok between you and me?" But be prepared for the fact that if he says "yes, of course" you're going to have to tell him what your colleague is saying. But frankly if your colleague is playing games then he deserves whatever he gets.
One last point: a couple of people mentioned constructive dismissal. This is very difficult to prove (particularly if you haven't resolved my earlier point) but, most importantly, you have to resign first in order to claim it. So there's a massive risk, to put it mildly. | | | |
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