| The Death of NATO 09:18 - Nov 22 with 4013 views | Churchman |
In the surrender document, point 4 states:
A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.
The key five words are ‘mediated by the United States’. Well, if the US are now mediating a dialogue, they are no longer part of NATO. It doesn’t exist. It’s finished. Dead. Do Europe’s leaders realise it or care? They look a sorry lot to me that spend most of their Trump time saying ‘eat him, not me’. Should there be any surprise as to how this is playing out? No.
The ‘negotiations’? Russia wants a free hand in the Balkans, the Baltics ceded, Poland, old enemy Finland and possibly even Sweden. I’d go further after swallowing Ukraine, which it will. I’d insist the rest of Europe be demilitarised (shouldn’t take long with the U.K.) with protection supplied by Russia for a fee. Their sphere of influence. That would allow US a free hand to carve up the far east with China.
It’s interesting that the US is still playing the stop the killing card as its justification (like it’s given a hoot about killing anywhere else in the world from Africa to its own adventures in Afghanistan). The real reason is that Russia is beginning to struggle economically and has lost most of its military hardware. Wars are won by economics, ultimately.
The US cannot allow that. As a fellow authoritarian country Trump’s plan is a simple world three way carve up where the US gets its slice. The biggest. Trump’s mate Vlad has to therefore win not least because an over weak Russia means a stronger China.
Just somewhat naive thoughts.
What isn’t is a few basic principles I’ve known all my life. If you give in to bullies and blackmailers, they’ll always come back for more. Give me one example where they haven’t.
Freedom as we know it is hard won and easily lost. It costs too. Lastly, you have to rely first and foremost on yourself. Excruciatingly offering a dinner with King Charles with a silly little bit of paper isn’t going to cut it Sir Kier.
You and more particularly your predecessors should have seen this years ago (Crimea theft). Defence, internal and external, is a primary duty of government. They’ll talk about it and look worried but they’re not interested and in any case it’s all too late now I’m afraid. How about another review? [Post edited 22 Nov 9:20]
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| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 with 2859 views | Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 09:31 - Nov 22 with 2774 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |
Trump is behaving like a man on borrowed time. Matters not if it is health issues or inevitable comeuppance as a result of being a nasty human-being.
This peace plan was clearly written by Putin any way, I really hope that Ukraine reject it and that Europe sends in support even if only engineers to help maintain electrical supply, although observers on the ground to study drone warfare wouldn’t go amiss. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 09:44 - Nov 22 with 2730 views | JackNorthStand |
| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |
The US did used to be considered the world police, they were respected and feared - both seem to have been lost on the world stage.
The part the poster mentions regarding NATO and Russia, with the US mediating shows how disjointed the relationship between the USA and other NATO countries is. |  | | |
| The Death of NATO on 09:56 - Nov 22 with 2686 views | Churchman |
| The Death of NATO on 09:44 - Nov 22 by JackNorthStand |
The US did used to be considered the world police, they were respected and feared - both seem to have been lost on the world stage.
The part the poster mentions regarding NATO and Russia, with the US mediating shows how disjointed the relationship between the USA and other NATO countries is. |
Yep, the relationship between the US and other NATO countries is broken. Finished. Over. All the old treaties on this are just stuff for the shredder.
Does anyone seriously think that if, or more likely when, Russia starts on the Baltics and Poland the Americans would lift a finger? Of course not. Trump has already said as much with his declaration that (paraphrased) if a country cannot look after itself it deserves what it gets. Why should the US pay in dollars and lives to defend it?
In a sense he has a point yet Starmer, Macron and the weedy Euro leaders just don’t get it. Heads in the sand. Those under direct threat understand Poland (defence spending over 4% despite economic pressures), Finland and co. That’s obvious in the actions they’ve taken. | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 10:02 - Nov 22 with 2662 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Death of NATO on 09:56 - Nov 22 by Churchman |
Yep, the relationship between the US and other NATO countries is broken. Finished. Over. All the old treaties on this are just stuff for the shredder.
Does anyone seriously think that if, or more likely when, Russia starts on the Baltics and Poland the Americans would lift a finger? Of course not. Trump has already said as much with his declaration that (paraphrased) if a country cannot look after itself it deserves what it gets. Why should the US pay in dollars and lives to defend it?
In a sense he has a point yet Starmer, Macron and the weedy Euro leaders just don’t get it. Heads in the sand. Those under direct threat understand Poland (defence spending over 4% despite economic pressures), Finland and co. That’s obvious in the actions they’ve taken. |
Would you ask US to vacate Mildenhall & Lakenheath. The former could be used for air freight freeing up capacity elsewhere. | |
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| The Death of NATO on 10:30 - Nov 22 with 2544 views | lowhouseblue |
| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |
it's very hard not to see parallels with appeasement. from america first to make america great again. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The Death of NATO on 10:45 - Nov 22 with 2490 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
What do you expect Starmer and the "weak European leaders" to do then? Ignore America and declare war on Russia? Genuine question because I don't see any easy answer. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 11:02 - Nov 22 with 2414 views | Pinewoodblue |
Your mention of Crimea reminded me that it lead to Russia being suspended from G8. Four years later they resigned from the group.
They clearly want to rejoin as it is one of the points in the Putin/Trump peace plan.
They can only rejoin if all members of G7 agree. Can’t really see any benefit to UK, France etc of letting Russia back in, apart from appeasing Trump.
Time Europe stood up to him. | |
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| The Death of NATO on 11:05 - Nov 22 with 2406 views | Bent_double |
Excellent post, albeit slightly worrying - not that there's much any of us can do.
I think I said a similar thing about the US, Russia and China carving up Europe between themselves in a post a while ago, I mean it probably makes perfect sense to those countries, why should annoying little countries like the UK, Poland, Finland etc get in the way?
After that, start on the southern hemisphere: south america and greenland goes to the US, of course, Russia gets africa, China gets Australia and the rest of Asia. Oh, lets not forget Israel, they can have the rest of the middle east.
It won't happen, but now really is the time for Europe to stand up to Trump and call this out. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 11:11 - Nov 22 with 2388 views | Churchman |
| The Death of NATO on 10:30 - Nov 22 by lowhouseblue |
it's very hard not to see parallels with appeasement. from america first to make america great again. |
As a simple and stupid man Trump reduces everything to fag packet solutions. Domestic and international. My speculation on the game he’s playing is probably wrong, but it’s something like that. Trump has no concept of anywhere or anything bar himself. He doesn’t allow questions and is always right.
Does anyone seriously think he has the faintest idea what Ukraine is, Putin or anything else beyond Mar Largo? Of course not. All he recognises is people with similar traits to him. Strength so he sees Putin as strong, a man to do business with. Reliable. Something to gain. Putin knows all about Trump though and is working him over.
This surrender/appeasement mirrors the sellout of Czechoslovakia in 1938. The players were Hitler, Mussolini, Daladier and Chamberlain. Czech leader Benes wasn’t allowed in the room. Hitler knew Mussolini was in his pocket and that Daladier was weak and his country in dread of another war. The one he didn’t know was Chamberlain.
Neville Chamberlain was a strange man. He was not meant to reach high office, but did. He ruled the tories with a rod of iron. A strict disciplinarian, dour and inflexible in old fashioned dress. For Hitler, Britain was powerful with its empire and by far the world’s strongest navy. He knew tech wise it was in the game and a threat.
He treated Chamberlain with formality and respect, despite thinking him an oddball. But he soon picked up on the fact that despite everything, Chamberlain would do anything to maintain peace. His horror of WW1 governed everything he said and did. Any amount of promises, Neville would swallow. It was that which led to his waving a bit of paper once Czechoslovakia was sold out. Hitler thought him a twerp. Chamberlain thought Hitler odious, but hey, to save lives a deal with the devil (‘a man of his word’) was fine. Good politics too! Or not.
Revisionists like to say Chamberlain was buying time. He wasn’t. After the agreement, U.K. rearmament slowed. Germanys accelerated so much so that of motorised vehicles tanks etc that invaded France in 1940, a third of them had been produced by the Czech’s factories after the agreement. Thanks Neville, ya dope!
The parallels are that Trump is happy to sell Ukraine for gain. Art of the deal. Russia and the US gain. Hurrah! The areas given away are Ukraine’s key economic areas and key for defence. By reducing its army and banning it from alliances, that bears resemblance to the Versailles Treaty. So the worst of two surrenders then.
So Ukraine is being sold to save lives. Appeasement in 1938 was also to save lives. It was Chamberlain’s only aim. Peace in our time. That ended well with 55 million dead. I wonder where Trumps shameful sell out and remodelling of the world will lead? | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 11:12 - Nov 22 with 2385 views | mellowblue |
I think the concept of NATO is dying and probably should be repalced by a euro-centric organisation, hopefully not linked to the E.U as I have doubts on their leadership and willignss to go beyond rhetoric, but I think some of this is over-reaction. Europe are big enough boys to look after themselves and should be funding their defence a lot better. Still acting as if the USSR demise peace dividend is an option. Germany need to step up to the plate in a leadership role, they need to put the WWII guilt trip behind and be less passive. The US is much more interested in the Pacific bowl and their presence in Europe is a fraction of what it was. | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 11:29 - Nov 22 with 2330 views | Churchman |
| The Death of NATO on 11:12 - Nov 22 by mellowblue |
I think the concept of NATO is dying and probably should be repalced by a euro-centric organisation, hopefully not linked to the E.U as I have doubts on their leadership and willignss to go beyond rhetoric, but I think some of this is over-reaction. Europe are big enough boys to look after themselves and should be funding their defence a lot better. Still acting as if the USSR demise peace dividend is an option. Germany need to step up to the plate in a leadership role, they need to put the WWII guilt trip behind and be less passive. The US is much more interested in the Pacific bowl and their presence in Europe is a fraction of what it was. |
Economically Europe is huge compared to Russia. Militarily it isn’t. Summary of the Strategic Defence Review
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-and-national-security-analysis/2025
The key words are dependence on funding. Well we all know there won’t be any of that so let’s hope the Review has been printed on absorbent paper and hold another review in a year or two’s time. [Post edited 22 Nov 11:29]
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| The Death of NATO on 11:30 - Nov 22 with 2320 views | bournemouthblue |
| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |
Giving them a weeks ultimatum isn't state craft either frankly
There's no way Ukraine accepts this deal |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 11:37 - Nov 22 with 2297 views | bournemouthblue |
| The Death of NATO on 11:29 - Nov 22 by Churchman |
Economically Europe is huge compared to Russia. Militarily it isn’t. Summary of the Strategic Defence Review
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-and-national-security-analysis/2025
The key words are dependence on funding. Well we all know there won’t be any of that so let’s hope the Review has been printed on absorbent paper and hold another review in a year or two’s time. [Post edited 22 Nov 11:29]
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If soley European NATO nations moved into war mode and started gearing for it, we would defeat Russia certainly
We are not there yet and that's part of Trump's point I fear, he wants all nations paying a lot more money towards NATO
At the moment, America probably can sit smuggly and say this is Europe's problem. If China attack Taiwan, they'll soon come running for help. | |
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| The Death of NATO on 12:02 - Nov 22 with 2213 views | mellowblue |
| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |
That is the thing. They are very much trying to lose that role, without losing the prestige. Returning back to previous, they want to be able to pick and choose when they enter a war. They have been playing lip service to the concept of NATO for longer than Trump has been in power. Certainly when it comes to men on the ground. I still see that we need continued co-operation on the high seas as protecting trade routes is a collective thing. | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 12:28 - Nov 22 with 2141 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Death of NATO on 11:29 - Nov 22 by Churchman |
Economically Europe is huge compared to Russia. Militarily it isn’t. Summary of the Strategic Defence Review
https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/defence-and-national-security-analysis/2025
The key words are dependence on funding. Well we all know there won’t be any of that so let’s hope the Review has been printed on absorbent paper and hold another review in a year or two’s time. [Post edited 22 Nov 11:29]
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It is worth remembering that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was going to be complete within days.
Russia failed because they couldn’t secure, and maintain a supply chain. | |
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| The Death of NATO on 12:30 - Nov 22 with 2135 views | Churchman |
| The Death of NATO on 11:37 - Nov 22 by bournemouthblue |
If soley European NATO nations moved into war mode and started gearing for it, we would defeat Russia certainly
We are not there yet and that's part of Trump's point I fear, he wants all nations paying a lot more money towards NATO
At the moment, America probably can sit smuggly and say this is Europe's problem. If China attack Taiwan, they'll soon come running for help. |
As it stands, NATO without US doesn’t last five minutes against Russia.
Your first sentence is how I see it, but I see next to no political will.
If Europe is to survive against Russia, it needs to look to itself tailoring its military for its own needs but also collectively. Does it have the will or desire to risk the political fallout of diverting precious resources to defence? Beyond those under direct threat who are doing something about it, one can but hope.
https://cepa.org/article/what-european-nato-lacks/ | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 12:51 - Nov 22 with 2065 views | Bent_double |
| The Death of NATO on 12:30 - Nov 22 by Churchman |
As it stands, NATO without US doesn’t last five minutes against Russia.
Your first sentence is how I see it, but I see next to no political will.
If Europe is to survive against Russia, it needs to look to itself tailoring its military for its own needs but also collectively. Does it have the will or desire to risk the political fallout of diverting precious resources to defence? Beyond those under direct threat who are doing something about it, one can but hope.
https://cepa.org/article/what-european-nato-lacks/ |
What do you mean wouldn't last 5 mins? Russia would go nuclear?
Because little Ukraine has held them off for almost 4 years, surely the shear numbers and air superiority of the combined European countries against a weakened Russia would inflict a serious amount of damage on them. | |
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| The Death of NATO on 13:02 - Nov 22 with 2039 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Surely with all that fentanyl coming out of China it's only a matter of time before Trump starts blowing some little boats out of the water. If it hasn't sunk in yet that the corporate and political world is populated by sociopaths then it never will. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 13:05 - Nov 22 with 2036 views | Churchman |
| The Death of NATO on 12:51 - Nov 22 by Bent_double |
What do you mean wouldn't last 5 mins? Russia would go nuclear?
Because little Ukraine has held them off for almost 4 years, surely the shear numbers and air superiority of the combined European countries against a weakened Russia would inflict a serious amount of damage on them. |
The link above gives the answer. Europe is divided politically and militarily (to a lesser extent). It has the capacity to inflict damage, but not for very long without US in a number of areas. Even a very capable F35 sits on the ground without US support.
The assumption is that Russia will require a few years to build up what it needs to achieve its next step. But it has the will to do it. Does Europe have that? Because that’s what it’ll take, especially as Trump intends to enrich Russia financially through deals way beyond its plunder from conquered Ukraine.. | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 13:49 - Nov 22 with 1918 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Death of NATO on 13:05 - Nov 22 by Churchman |
The link above gives the answer. Europe is divided politically and militarily (to a lesser extent). It has the capacity to inflict damage, but not for very long without US in a number of areas. Even a very capable F35 sits on the ground without US support.
The assumption is that Russia will require a few years to build up what it needs to achieve its next step. But it has the will to do it. Does Europe have that? Because that’s what it’ll take, especially as Trump intends to enrich Russia financially through deals way beyond its plunder from conquered Ukraine.. |
For over 10 years an alternative option, in a situation where NATO cannot agree, and it lead by UK
https://jefnations.org/ | |
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| The Death of NATO on 17:26 - Nov 22 with 1748 views | Kropotkin123 |
| The Death of NATO on 09:31 - Nov 22 by Pinewoodblue |
Trump is behaving like a man on borrowed time. Matters not if it is health issues or inevitable comeuppance as a result of being a nasty human-being.
This peace plan was clearly written by Putin any way, I really hope that Ukraine reject it and that Europe sends in support even if only engineers to help maintain electrical supply, although observers on the ground to study drone warfare wouldn’t go amiss. |
No, it is clearly written by both. A mix of Russian talking points and Trumpian business deals |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 00:30 - Nov 23 with 1538 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The Death of NATO on 11:11 - Nov 22 by Churchman |
As a simple and stupid man Trump reduces everything to fag packet solutions. Domestic and international. My speculation on the game he’s playing is probably wrong, but it’s something like that. Trump has no concept of anywhere or anything bar himself. He doesn’t allow questions and is always right.
Does anyone seriously think he has the faintest idea what Ukraine is, Putin or anything else beyond Mar Largo? Of course not. All he recognises is people with similar traits to him. Strength so he sees Putin as strong, a man to do business with. Reliable. Something to gain. Putin knows all about Trump though and is working him over.
This surrender/appeasement mirrors the sellout of Czechoslovakia in 1938. The players were Hitler, Mussolini, Daladier and Chamberlain. Czech leader Benes wasn’t allowed in the room. Hitler knew Mussolini was in his pocket and that Daladier was weak and his country in dread of another war. The one he didn’t know was Chamberlain.
Neville Chamberlain was a strange man. He was not meant to reach high office, but did. He ruled the tories with a rod of iron. A strict disciplinarian, dour and inflexible in old fashioned dress. For Hitler, Britain was powerful with its empire and by far the world’s strongest navy. He knew tech wise it was in the game and a threat.
He treated Chamberlain with formality and respect, despite thinking him an oddball. But he soon picked up on the fact that despite everything, Chamberlain would do anything to maintain peace. His horror of WW1 governed everything he said and did. Any amount of promises, Neville would swallow. It was that which led to his waving a bit of paper once Czechoslovakia was sold out. Hitler thought him a twerp. Chamberlain thought Hitler odious, but hey, to save lives a deal with the devil (‘a man of his word’) was fine. Good politics too! Or not.
Revisionists like to say Chamberlain was buying time. He wasn’t. After the agreement, U.K. rearmament slowed. Germanys accelerated so much so that of motorised vehicles tanks etc that invaded France in 1940, a third of them had been produced by the Czech’s factories after the agreement. Thanks Neville, ya dope!
The parallels are that Trump is happy to sell Ukraine for gain. Art of the deal. Russia and the US gain. Hurrah! The areas given away are Ukraine’s key economic areas and key for defence. By reducing its army and banning it from alliances, that bears resemblance to the Versailles Treaty. So the worst of two surrenders then.
So Ukraine is being sold to save lives. Appeasement in 1938 was also to save lives. It was Chamberlain’s only aim. Peace in our time. That ended well with 55 million dead. I wonder where Trumps shameful sell out and remodelling of the world will lead? |
What do you expect Starmer and the "weak European leaders" to do then? Ignore America and declare war on Russia? Genuine question because I don't see any easy answer. | |
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| The Death of NATO on 01:07 - Nov 23 with 1514 views | ElderGrizzly |
| The Death of NATO on 17:26 - Nov 22 by Kropotkin123 |
No, it is clearly written by both. A mix of Russian talking points and Trumpian business deals |
Confirmed as a Russian document/wish list
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| The Death of NATO on 07:20 - Nov 23 with 1416 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The Death of NATO on 09:22 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
The whole thing is the US trying to be the world police and not realising that all it's doing is empowering and emboldening a rogue Russian state. Trump is a fecking moron and the proposed peace deal shows his lack of smarts and statesmanship. |
Aren’t they just looking to extract as much money out of situations as possible for themselves and oligarch allies? I doubt policing anything has crossed their mind. |  |
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