| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:07 - Jul 18 with 5817 views | caught-in-limbo |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:49 - Jul 18 by chicoazul |
Gotta say im not sure about this latest rebranding you've undergone CiL. |
Same ol' me. What's the problem? Is it the avatar? |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:07 - Jul 18 with 5821 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:03 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0 |
Elder and others are having a go at Owen Jones when the same stuff, not written by him, is on the BBC. |
I'm not, i'm saying he is mis-representing the wider report and has picked the 'headlinrs' with his own spin.
The BBC article has taken a slightly different approach.
The trend in the UK is repeated in other G20 countries as the OECD data shows and in countries that don't have austerity to the level we do.
That's my only issue with it. He has not looked at all the data available. |  | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:11 - Jul 18 with 5799 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:16 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0 |
Interesting to see people showing their true feelings (their hatred of Owen Jones) rather than focusing on the points raised in both articles. |
For me its a double whammy.
Hatred for Owen Jones AND focusing on a terrible, scewed article. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:16 - Jul 18 with 5789 views | gibbsm1 |
I never post on political topics, but given I am an Actuary I thought I should!
The article is complete, click bait nonsense. There can be no (zero) statistical evidence behind it for many of the reasons listed by posters above. As a profession we struggle to draw meaningful conclusion from many many times more data (e.g. 50 year trends or across wider population sets) than this 'study' contains. To then conclude this is due to austerity is ludicrous. There has been no real austerity. Public sector spending has barely changed and health spending has increased. The administering of healthcare will have far less impact on longevity than the combined impacts of improving health awareness and longer term trends of improving healthcare (e.g. cancer) would act against this impact anyway.
My guess is that the cause is random noise at best, if a student actuary came to me with these conclusions I would be pretty disappointed, not least somebody writing in a national paper
Essentially, there is no data to support the claim. Additionally the author ignores the potential impact of economic growth more widely which has increased since 2010 which has actually made our society wealthier.
I don't come at this from a 'tory' perspective, but clearly this man is ignorant of facts much like many of the other Guardian contributors. |  | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:17 - Jul 18 with 5783 views | ElderGrizzly |
Indeed. Once on page 19. And in the context he uses, he says Austerity is not necessarily a bad thing if implemented in the right way | | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:30 - Jul 18 with 5757 views | Superfrans |
Why. He's quoting an academic and former Government advisor. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:32 - Jul 18 with 5754 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:30 - Jul 18 by Superfrans |
Why. He's quoting an academic and former Government advisor. |
He's not quoting him though, that's my gripe with it as the later link to the full report shows.
I know why he's done it, but it doesn't make it right and probably harms the argument | | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:00 - Jul 18 with 5718 views | GeoffSentence |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:42 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue |
And this is the trouble, you've gone down the poor analysis route as well and taken the soundbite at face value.
It doesn't take into account:
- People are living as long, in fact longer, just the increase in expectancy is slowing (so your last line is wrong)
- Rules of diminishing returns on medical advances
- Diet and lack there of
- Environmental factors
- It's happening all over the world in western societies
The subject is complex, he's trivalised it into a pathetic political point. There are loads of factors I've not even thought of, considered or listed above.
SB [Post edited 18 Jul 2017 12:47]
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The article is not "truly stupid". Sure, the issue is more complicated than just the two factors he has picked out, but it is valid to make the point that increases in life expectancy have virtually stopped and to point out that the state of the NHS and the economy have played a part in that. Both of these factors have been in the control of the Tories for 7 years. OJ is a politician so no big surprise that he do concentrates on the political.
So, that the article so simplifies things is true (what newspaper article doesn't), but to call it "truly stupid" is,well, a bit stupid. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:01 - Jul 18 with 5716 views | Superfrans |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 12:59 - Jul 18 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Even if there was a shred of truth.... it would still come back to this;
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It's amazing how much importance some people attach to a joke. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:02 - Jul 18 with 5712 views | Desmond |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:00 - Jul 18 by GeoffSentence |
The article is not "truly stupid". Sure, the issue is more complicated than just the two factors he has picked out, but it is valid to make the point that increases in life expectancy have virtually stopped and to point out that the state of the NHS and the economy have played a part in that. Both of these factors have been in the control of the Tories for 7 years. OJ is a politician so no big surprise that he do concentrates on the political.
So, that the article so simplifies things is true (what newspaper article doesn't), but to call it "truly stupid" is,well, a bit stupid. |
Hasn't the NHS just been voted the best health care system in the world Brother? |  | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:05 - Jul 18 with 5709 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:00 - Jul 18 by GeoffSentence |
The article is not "truly stupid". Sure, the issue is more complicated than just the two factors he has picked out, but it is valid to make the point that increases in life expectancy have virtually stopped and to point out that the state of the NHS and the economy have played a part in that. Both of these factors have been in the control of the Tories for 7 years. OJ is a politician so no big surprise that he do concentrates on the political.
So, that the article so simplifies things is true (what newspaper article doesn't), but to call it "truly stupid" is,well, a bit stupid. |
Disagree almost entirely but there you go.
It's a stupid article at best, deliberately misleading at worst.
Have you read the rest of the thread?
SB |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:05 - Jul 18 with 5707 views | Superfrans |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:32 - Jul 18 by ElderGrizzly |
He's not quoting him though, that's my gripe with it as the later link to the full report shows.
I know why he's done it, but it doesn't make it right and probably harms the argument |
He's probably pushed at the edges, sure. But it does seem odd to me that people hate him so much. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:06 - Jul 18 with 5698 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:05 - Jul 18 by Superfrans |
He's probably pushed at the edges, sure. But it does seem odd to me that people hate him so much. |
I think you can see Steve_M's post for the reasons you are looking for.
SB | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:08 - Jul 18 with 5695 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:05 - Jul 18 by Superfrans |
He's probably pushed at the edges, sure. But it does seem odd to me that people hate him so much. |
I certainly don't hate him. He's passionate about his cause, but is in danger of going too far and damaging that cause. A bit like Sqwawkbox, that started off well intentioned and now is just retraction after retraction.
I think it's poor the Guardian have published something that doesn't reflect the report it is commenting on. But as i said, i know why he and they have. | | | |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:17 - Jul 18 with 5677 views | The_Last_Baron |
It's easy to see why the Guardian is a failing newspaper. Not long to go until they've used up the rest of the huge subsidy they were given. Maybe four years maximum at the going rate. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:18 - Jul 18 with 5675 views | Superfrans |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:06 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue |
I think you can see Steve_M's post for the reasons you are looking for.
SB |
I've read Steve_M's post. Which bit don't you like? The apparent flip-flopping?
If so, all he's done is simply been passionate about a particular position - and, on realising his error, fessed up and accepted he was wrong. If we're at the point of a political debate where nobody can admit they were wrong, then we're in a terrible state as a nation...
I suppose I accept that he's a political journalist/activist (which is totally fine on either side) who falls short of labelling human beings cockroaches, blatantly lying (as many of the leave supporters did through the campaign, among others) and generally demonstrating a total lack of integrity. He stands up for what he believes in and which puts other people first. Can't see a problem with that, personally. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:23 - Jul 18 with 5658 views | Superfrans |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:08 - Jul 18 by ElderGrizzly |
I certainly don't hate him. He's passionate about his cause, but is in danger of going too far and damaging that cause. A bit like Sqwawkbox, that started off well intentioned and now is just retraction after retraction.
I think it's poor the Guardian have published something that doesn't reflect the report it is commenting on. But as i said, i know why he and they have. |
I like his passion. Although I do feel the campaigning in certain marginal constituencies is slightly misguided - there are better places to be targetting energies at this point, to be honest.
The Guardian has published a straight piece on Marmot's report (below), so I'm personally fine with them publishing an opinion piece to accompany it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/18/rise-in-life-expectancy-has-stal | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:24 - Jul 18 with 5655 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:48 - Jul 18 by chicoazul |
You're right, the fact that you are in the pay of the food and sugar industry doesn't colour your judgement at all. |
I swear on my mum's life it didn't occur to me. |  |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:27 - Jul 18 with 5650 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:27 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
This is a car crash of a thread to read. One man desperately trying to pin whatever he can on the Tories despite evidence to the contrary being presented.
It's as if he is more interested in an agenda than the facts. |
I'm aware of the fact that University College London expert Sir Michael Marmot said he was "deeply concerned" by the situation, calling it "historically highly unusual", that it was "entirely possible" austerity was to blame and said the issue needed looking at urgently.
Do you disagree with the expert? Do you think we shouldn't bother looking at this "urgently"? | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:28 - Jul 18 with 5645 views | The_Last_Baron |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:23 - Jul 18 by Superfrans |
I like his passion. Although I do feel the campaigning in certain marginal constituencies is slightly misguided - there are better places to be targetting energies at this point, to be honest.
The Guardian has published a straight piece on Marmot's report (below), so I'm personally fine with them publishing an opinion piece to accompany it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/18/rise-in-life-expectancy-has-stal |
Jones is making a fool of himself. Aside from his terrible and nonsensical political views he should wind his neck in for a bit.
Must be terrible for someone to be so obsessed with politics but to be constantly on the losing side of the argument. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:30 - Jul 18 with 5639 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 14:21 - Jul 18 by StokieBlue |
So there is a 242 page report, there are many acknowledged factors but it's fine to write a whole article and blame austerity because he mentioned it once and was directly questioned about it by a BBC journalist so he mentions it in that interview.
Really desperate stuff Dolly.
It's scaremongering of the highest order. One could go further and say it's fake news intended to stir up more support for his cause.
SB |
It's not fake news - he is reporting one of the things Sir Michael Marmot said.
We should also address the other issues (other than austerity) that the report brings up. I've never suggested we shouldn't. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:32 - Jul 18 with 5634 views | Dolly2.0 |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 15:07 - Jul 18 by ElderGrizzly |
I'm not, i'm saying he is mis-representing the wider report and has picked the 'headlinrs' with his own spin.
The BBC article has taken a slightly different approach.
The trend in the UK is repeated in other G20 countries as the OECD data shows and in countries that don't have austerity to the level we do.
That's my only issue with it. He has not looked at all the data available. |
The BBC article also talks about austerity. | |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:39 - Jul 18 with 5619 views | StokieBlue |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:32 - Jul 18 by Dolly2.0 |
The BBC article also talks about austerity. |
Yet the 242 page report on which everything is based doesn't cite it as a factor and mentions it once.
The BBC of course, wanting a headline, ask him directly about austerity to which he replies.
Why do you hold the BBC article above the primary source which is the report.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:50 - Jul 18 with 5601 views | Superfrans |
| Owen Jones has outdone himself this time on 16:28 - Jul 18 by The_Last_Baron |
Jones is making a fool of himself. Aside from his terrible and nonsensical political views he should wind his neck in for a bit.
Must be terrible for someone to be so obsessed with politics but to be constantly on the losing side of the argument. |
Must be terrible to be so rattled by one political journalist. | |
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