| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today 09:27 - Dec 20 with 20114 views | StokieBlue |
So the Lib Dems have tabled an amendment to allow the public to have a second referendum on the deal:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/20/lib-dems-call-for-second-eu-ref
Unlikely to pass but if there is an election in 2018 like some are predicting (I think it's unlikely) then it would certainly give the public another option to vote for. Would be interesting to see if enough people who felt strongly enough on brexit could put aside party loyalty and vote for someone else offering them the chance to reverse brexit.
All hypothetical of course.
I did find this quite astonishing:
"Cable said there was growing public support for a referendum on the final deal, citing a recent poll by Survation that found 50% of respondents wanted a vote."
I am amazed that 50% of people think the exit process is going OK. Crazy stuff.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |  |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:11 - Dec 20 with 5167 views | nrb1985 |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 09:59 - Dec 20 by BlueBadger |
To quote a TWTD leg end(sic), balls. You certainly couldn't teach it to the far more technical level required at A and degree level, but it's certainly used to be taught at GCSE level, particularly in English and history where you were required, at nearly all levels of ability to be able to examine set texts or pieces of evidence and examine their credibility and subtext. Frankly, the idea that you to be 'clever' to be a critical thinker is lazy and dangerous. Hell, one history GCSE paper always used to be an 'unseen' paper where you were set a subject you had been taught nothing about and asked to draw conclusions and express if you thought these conclusion were valid based on the quality of sources they'd given you.
(I say 'used to' as this was my experience at school 20 years ago, I have no idea how these things are taught nowadays). |
I think the breakdown of demographics for the referendum showed that those who attended higher education generally voted remain.
If you believe that those with the capacity for critical thought voted remain, as your earlier post suggested, then this supports my view there is a link between some form higher education and critical thought. |  | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:12 - Dec 20 with 5165 views | blue_oyster |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 09:59 - Dec 20 by Bluefish |
It wasn't real ffs. The facts were presented properly, it is a shambles. The majority of the voters have absolutely no idea what the implications are. |
I'm afraid it was very real. It's been one of the only real recent occasions when the public have actually have had the oppotunity to vote on something that really affects them, instead of the main political parties in a general election who give you the same option. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:14 - Dec 20 with 5164 views | BergholtBru |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 09:59 - Dec 20 by Bluefish |
It wasn't real ffs. The facts were presented properly, it is a shambles. The majority of the voters have absolutely no idea what the implications are. |
You could say the same about any GE. How many people who have the vote know anything about what they`re voting for. Should the right to vote be restricted to an "elite" few? |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:17 - Dec 20 with 5162 views | nrb1985 |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:14 - Dec 20 by BergholtBru |
You could say the same about any GE. How many people who have the vote know anything about what they`re voting for. Should the right to vote be restricted to an "elite" few? |
In a GE you can change your mind every four years though. This is permanent. | | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:27 - Dec 20 with 5147 views | Uncle_Bulgaria |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:07 - Dec 20 by nrb1985 |
1. So you think there will be no contrast in the political opinions of those in Islington as opposed to Barnsley? That's not what the referendum result said...
2. The combined number of students of Oxbridge is c.50k, there are 65m people in Britain. So I'd be right on that one too. |
Of course there will be (and are) political differences.....but that's not the point you were making. You were sneeringly suggesting that Islington people know better than people from Barnsley. I'd venture to suggest that you have very little first-hand knowledge, experience or understanding of what drives political opinion in Barnsley, yet apparently they are less well-informed than voters in Islington - with it being all cosmopolitan and urbane etc, etc. Different ends of the political spectrum with different agendas - neither right nor wrong - except in your eyes.
You then went on to compound this by suggesting that people who went to Oxford or Cambridge will have a more sensible grasp of politics (and by that you mean "agree with me") than everyone else. Condescending, patronising, elitist nonsense I'm afraid |  | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:39 - Dec 20 with 5133 views | J2BLUE |
I'm slowly coming round to the idea of a second referendum. I think it will eventually happen but like Cable said in the Independent it will be a long fight before it is announced. I don't know how it would work though. I think the government would need to present the full facts of remaining such as if we retain our rebates and opt outs; and if we would be part of the 'United States of Europe' that some (Schulz) want or the greater political union that Macron wants.
I guess it would have to be 'this deal or we stay' rather than the 'this deal or we leave without a deal' that hardcore Brexiters would want. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:49 - Dec 20 with 5118 views | giant_stow |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:27 - Dec 20 by Uncle_Bulgaria |
Of course there will be (and are) political differences.....but that's not the point you were making. You were sneeringly suggesting that Islington people know better than people from Barnsley. I'd venture to suggest that you have very little first-hand knowledge, experience or understanding of what drives political opinion in Barnsley, yet apparently they are less well-informed than voters in Islington - with it being all cosmopolitan and urbane etc, etc. Different ends of the political spectrum with different agendas - neither right nor wrong - except in your eyes.
You then went on to compound this by suggesting that people who went to Oxford or Cambridge will have a more sensible grasp of politics (and by that you mean "agree with me") than everyone else. Condescending, patronising, elitist nonsense I'm afraid |
Islington and Barnsley aren't so different politically - all labour MPs I think? Also, despite what people read in the Mail, Islington isn't full of Tony Blair luvvies — there’s a real mix of people from all walks of life.
The difference is that people in Islington will have far more knowledge and experience of living with immigration, I’d guess. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:53 - Dec 20 with 5114 views | No9 |
I'm not sure how there could be a G.E. in 2018.
The tories passed a law making each parliament fixed term. That is the first hurdle to overcome. (anyone beliive Mr Cameron didn't foresee what his Referendum would do ?)
The ways to get around this are set out but it is unlikely the opposition could force a way to get a successful vote of no confidence.
According to the radio on Sunday those wanting another referendum are at circa 52% & those who don't are circa 38% the rest are don't knows. The most interesting thing was that in all this the numbers of people surveyed are increasingly wanting the whole thing kicked into the long grass.
But is that fact & who would risk it getting worse? | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:54 - Dec 20 with 5116 views | nrb1985 |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:27 - Dec 20 by Uncle_Bulgaria |
Of course there will be (and are) political differences.....but that's not the point you were making. You were sneeringly suggesting that Islington people know better than people from Barnsley. I'd venture to suggest that you have very little first-hand knowledge, experience or understanding of what drives political opinion in Barnsley, yet apparently they are less well-informed than voters in Islington - with it being all cosmopolitan and urbane etc, etc. Different ends of the political spectrum with different agendas - neither right nor wrong - except in your eyes.
You then went on to compound this by suggesting that people who went to Oxford or Cambridge will have a more sensible grasp of politics (and by that you mean "agree with me") than everyone else. Condescending, patronising, elitist nonsense I'm afraid |
This is complete conjecture on your part and it's clear you don't have the foggiest idea of the points I was making.
The fact you've leapt to these conclusions says far more about you than me. It's the sort of nonsense Farage comes out with on LBC when describing "the liberal elite" whatever that is. | | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:20 - Dec 20 with 5093 views | Uncle_Bulgaria |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:54 - Dec 20 by nrb1985 |
This is complete conjecture on your part and it's clear you don't have the foggiest idea of the points I was making.
The fact you've leapt to these conclusions says far more about you than me. It's the sort of nonsense Farage comes out with on LBC when describing "the liberal elite" whatever that is. |
If I've mis-construed what you were trying to say, my apologies. But the fact that others have reached a similar conclusion to mine upon reading the OP suggests you need to reflect on your tone and use of language my friend - ironic considering the contrast you were drawing btw those with an Oxbridge education and everyone else! | | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:27 - Dec 20 with 5087 views | nrb1985 |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:20 - Dec 20 by Uncle_Bulgaria |
If I've mis-construed what you were trying to say, my apologies. But the fact that others have reached a similar conclusion to mine upon reading the OP suggests you need to reflect on your tone and use of language my friend - ironic considering the contrast you were drawing btw those with an Oxbridge education and everyone else! |
"But the fact that others have reached a similar conclusion". You're delusional.
There were three replies to my post - one said I was bang on, one said he didn't agree with my defence of the people from Barnsley and the other was yours.
Think you're the only one who's put 2+2 together and got 5...my friend. [Post edited 20 Dec 2017 11:28]
| | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:31 - Dec 20 with 5083 views | BlueBadger |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:11 - Dec 20 by nrb1985 |
I think the breakdown of demographics for the referendum showed that those who attended higher education generally voted remain.
If you believe that those with the capacity for critical thought voted remain, as your earlier post suggested, then this supports my view there is a link between some form higher education and critical thought. |
I'd put it more down to more limited horizons, expectations and astonishingly poor communication on the part of the 'remain' campaign rather than that, to be honest. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:33 - Dec 20 with 5085 views | itfcjoe |
I hope the LDs can put some pressure on, this country is heading to a cliff edge and rather than hold back we are accelerating.
Everyone knows Brexit is utterly stupid, but seems we are just having to go ahead with it because we want to save face. It's beyond pathetic. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:34 - Dec 20 with 5081 views | GeoffSentence |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 09:58 - Dec 20 by BergholtBru |
Vince Cable is a first class tw@t! End of!! |
That is actually the level of debate that goes down pretty well in the House of Commons. I nominate you to stand for election as an MP. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:37 - Dec 20 with 5076 views | BloomBlue |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 09:35 - Dec 20 by Bluefish |
Or realise the biggest mistake the county has ever made and try to correct it? |
But the Lib Dems offered this during the last general election so if it was that important to the country why didn't people vote for the lib dems then. |  | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:38 - Dec 20 with 5076 views | giant_stow |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:49 - Dec 20 by giant_stow |
Islington and Barnsley aren't so different politically - all labour MPs I think? Also, despite what people read in the Mail, Islington isn't full of Tony Blair luvvies — there’s a real mix of people from all walks of life.
The difference is that people in Islington will have far more knowledge and experience of living with immigration, I’d guess. |
Actually, in the interests of fairness there's another difference - bods in Barnsley have more to lose from Brexit:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/20/brexit-vote-exposure-trade-effe | |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:39 - Dec 20 with 5073 views | giant_stow |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:37 - Dec 20 by BloomBlue |
But the Lib Dems offered this during the last general election so if it was that important to the country why didn't people vote for the lib dems then. |
the same reason as always: they're not labour or the tories. Edit: This is why many remainers felt so betrayed by Corbyn's decision to go along with it all, when it was down to him to represent the 48% [Post edited 20 Dec 2017 11:40]
| |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:41 - Dec 20 with 5071 views | BlueBadger |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:53 - Dec 20 by No9 |
I'm not sure how there could be a G.E. in 2018.
The tories passed a law making each parliament fixed term. That is the first hurdle to overcome. (anyone beliive Mr Cameron didn't foresee what his Referendum would do ?)
The ways to get around this are set out but it is unlikely the opposition could force a way to get a successful vote of no confidence.
According to the radio on Sunday those wanting another referendum are at circa 52% & those who don't are circa 38% the rest are don't knows. The most interesting thing was that in all this the numbers of people surveyed are increasingly wanting the whole thing kicked into the long grass.
But is that fact & who would risk it getting worse? |
There wasn't supposed to be GE THIS year.... | |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:58 - Dec 20 with 5046 views | longtimefan |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:17 - Dec 20 by nrb1985 |
In a GE you can change your mind every four years though. This is permanent. |
I would have thought someone so highly educated would have realised that in this country, unlike the US, the electoral term is 5 years rather than 4  | | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 12:01 - Dec 20 with 5035 views | nrb1985 |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:58 - Dec 20 by longtimefan |
I would have thought someone so highly educated would have realised that in this country, unlike the US, the electoral term is 5 years rather than 4 |
All the Christmas drinks at the oxford union and various pall mall clubs obviously fried my brain. | | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 12:10 - Dec 20 with 5028 views | Fixed_It |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:33 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
I hope the LDs can put some pressure on, this country is heading to a cliff edge and rather than hold back we are accelerating.
Everyone knows Brexit is utterly stupid, but seems we are just having to go ahead with it because we want to save face. It's beyond pathetic. |
No-one with any credibility thinks it's a good thing. The people pushing it through don't even believe in it. But no-one is brave enough to do anything about it as they don't want to be seen going against 'the democratic vote'. I think now people have a clearer idea of what the issues are, it is only right that the people have a chance to voice better informed opinions. I hope they succeed. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 12:32 - Dec 20 with 5006 views | 26_Paz |
Are the lib dems so arrogant that they think their fringe party knows better than the democratic will of the people of this country.
I hope they do go into an election promising a second referendum. A lot of remoaners currently siding with Labour will go over to them as (to Corbyn's credit) the current Labour leadership wont go down that road. Split the left vote, Conservatives back in power, Boris PM. Job's a good 'un. |  |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 12:38 - Dec 20 with 4995 views | 26_Paz |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:39 - Dec 20 by giant_stow |
the same reason as always: they're not labour or the tories. Edit: This is why many remainers felt so betrayed by Corbyn's decision to go along with it all, when it was down to him to represent the 48% [Post edited 20 Dec 2017 11:40]
|
I think a surprisingly high number of Labour supporters voted leave and would do so again. There are plenty of remoaners amongst the younger generation but the old school, hard core left can be as anti EU as some Conservatives.
The Tories aren't the only party split on Europe ... [Post edited 20 Dec 2017 12:40]
| |
| |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 12:52 - Dec 20 with 4971 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 10:39 - Dec 20 by J2BLUE |
I'm slowly coming round to the idea of a second referendum. I think it will eventually happen but like Cable said in the Independent it will be a long fight before it is announced. I don't know how it would work though. I think the government would need to present the full facts of remaining such as if we retain our rebates and opt outs; and if we would be part of the 'United States of Europe' that some (Schulz) want or the greater political union that Macron wants.
I guess it would have to be 'this deal or we stay' rather than the 'this deal or we leave without a deal' that hardcore Brexiters would want. |
I think this is the situation now.
People voted on an idea, without knowing the facts and it sounded an attractive proposition to some.
Now it turns out, those things promised can’t be delivered or certainly not in the way promised or without huge cost, so the sensible thing would be to ask either MPs or the public (i don’t mind which),what do we want for our future.
Plan A (Brexit) which means x
Plan B (not-Brexit) which means a ‘reimagining’ of the relationship with Europe
We need marriage counselling, not a divorce. |  | | |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 12:56 - Dec 20 with 4967 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Lib Dems pushing for second referendum today on 11:37 - Dec 20 by BloomBlue |
But the Lib Dems offered this during the last general election so if it was that important to the country why didn't people vote for the lib dems then. |
Because we didn’t know what it really meant back then.
Now it looks like we are paying billions of pounds we don’t have for less access than we have now
If Corbyn is to be believed, he will run a campaign on staying in the Single Market and having Freedom of Movement. [Post edited 20 Dec 2017 12:56]
| | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
