| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:32 - Nov 3 with 2388 views | monytowbray |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:43 - Nov 3 by NewcyBlue |
Both threads you say capitalism is at fault.
One thread capitalism makes me you feel depressed.
Another thread you believe the rich, funded by capitalism, wanting to leave to avoid taxes, is abhorrent.
The threads are linked in my opinion. From your first one where you want to live a minimalist life like you hippy and punk friends, then later on wanting to go freelance so you can get more money.
If Joe Smith puts his money elsewhere to avoid inheritance tax for his kids, how does that affect you?
I am not agreeing with what they do, but it’s no different to you wanting to go freelance to increase your earning potential. Everybody wants to look after their future, and the future of their kids.
I think you find this is nothing more than exaggeration, there may be some wealth movement, but the crux of the business and assets will be in the U.K.
Landlords with multiple properties will still be renting those properties out. Businesses won’t shut down and make people unemployed, they may find ways to pay less tax, but there will still be businesses.
You will still look for ways to maximise your earning potential, as will many people theirs.
It’s just the last thread that you started on capitalism was all over the place, it seemed to be a “I hate capitalism, I hate working 40 hours for the man, I want to go freelance for more money”.
Good luck in your future endeavours anyway. |
I can go freelance to get more of my life back. Money means little to me. You’d know that if you read the thread properly. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:33 - Nov 3 with 2389 views | longtimefan |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:20 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Not just Sweden. It's all of Northern Europe.
You can't make an immediate link between higher taxation and the absence of the major social and regional imbalances that affect the UK as it still depends on how the money is spent. But as a wealth and value redistribution tool taxation is as good as any. |
Interestingly I have numerous friends in Oslo and generally visit a couple of times a year. When I first started going, I never saw homeless people or beggars on the street. Over the years it has become more and more prevalent, and has rapidly increased in the last 3 years. Friends say the increase isn’t restricted just to Oslo also. |  | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:45 - Nov 3 with 2366 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:33 - Nov 3 by longtimefan |
Interestingly I have numerous friends in Oslo and generally visit a couple of times a year. When I first started going, I never saw homeless people or beggars on the street. Over the years it has become more and more prevalent, and has rapidly increased in the last 3 years. Friends say the increase isn’t restricted just to Oslo also. |
I think a lot of that is related to people moving there to beg certainly from what I've seen in Sweden and Denmark in recent years.
And of course, Scandinavia has social problems - it's not as if everything for every individual is rosy. It proves that inequality and people falling by the wayside is also a danger within societies who take equality for granted. Maybe because they do take it for granted.
Bit like us with the NHS. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:07 - Nov 3 with 2307 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:45 - Nov 3 by Mullet |
It's not Cauldwell people are worried about let alone angry at though is it? It's a false premise to cite him.
People are angry that companies who don't pay their fair share bully the government into threatening to go elsewhere. Which they won't, because if they're valuable at all anyway, they have too many assets, jobs and prestige invested in the UK to just up sticks.
Very telling that minor celebs and millionaires are so enraged by Corbyn's tweet. They'll never be close to that bracket, but are acting as if he's talking directly to them. |
my use of Cauldwell as an example is simply a reaction to people using 'people' as targets.
Business's can't change under the current rules. Maximise shareholder value and paying 100% of tax as it is due are conflicts of interest.
If you press that too hard we become a desert.
I'm not agreeing with it, but I can compromise. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:12 - Nov 3 with 2305 views | longtimefan |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:45 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
I think a lot of that is related to people moving there to beg certainly from what I've seen in Sweden and Denmark in recent years.
And of course, Scandinavia has social problems - it's not as if everything for every individual is rosy. It proves that inequality and people falling by the wayside is also a danger within societies who take equality for granted. Maybe because they do take it for granted.
Bit like us with the NHS. |
Quite possibly so. Mind you I’ve never spoken to a Norwegian about economics who hasn’t complained that they pay too much tax! | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:12 - Nov 3 with 2305 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:55 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Well, I really don't understand why there is such apathy towards resolving the deep social and regional issues in this country.
The idea that we keep paying into a system (and indeed topping it from time to time with central funds) that encourages and reinforces those divisions is madness.
Trickle-down economics doesn't work. The idea that Caudwell's massive personal wealth is a good thing for wider society is just an outdated belief in liberty always trumping equality, when it's obvious from the number of people disadvantaged by that there should be far more of a balance.
Caudwell would still be wildly successful even if he only had a fraction of his wealth. But we're not even talking about reducing it to that "little", just percentage points.
But on a tangent, is the UK more entrepreneurial and innovative than other countries in Europe that pay more personal and corporate tax? Isn't entrepreneurial spirit and innovative knowledge driven by social standards (health, education, welfare) just as much as the pursuit of profit? [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 13:57]
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Trickle down economics is a flawed idea.
I've not mentioned it specifically as he has created huge amounts of wealth, therefore tax in many forms, for the exchequer.
Trickle down focuses on one person and their consumption.
My use of him shows that if everyone paid their tax AT CURRENT LEVELS the exchequer would be awash.
He is showing that it's possible to pay your tax and stay rich.
If others followed his example it would be awesome.
You don't need to raise the tax levels to increase the tax take. Just show people it's the 'right thing to do'. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:13 - Nov 3 with 2301 views | kinnockers |
Haven't paid any tax aside from VAT most of my working life. Whatever I find I keep simple as and the taxman and general public can poke it as far as I'm concerned. |  |
| Former leader of the Labour Party / Newsround Editor |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:29 - Nov 3 with 2288 views | itfcjoe |
Generally these people are just blow hards who won’t actually go, if they do choose to leave then f*ck them - they no longer benefit from living in Britain.
There is already some moaning in there that they won’t then be able to send their kids to Eton - the ultra rich are too used to being able to have their cake and eat it, something has to give. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:33 - Nov 3 with 2281 views | footers |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:29 - Nov 3 by itfcjoe |
Generally these people are just blow hards who won’t actually go, if they do choose to leave then f*ck them - they no longer benefit from living in Britain.
There is already some moaning in there that they won’t then be able to send their kids to Eton - the ultra rich are too used to being able to have their cake and eat it, something has to give. |
Makes you wonder why they haven't pissed off to Monaco or other low/no-tax jurisdictions if their lives are so miserable in the UK... |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:37 - Nov 3 with 2273 views | itfcjoe |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:33 - Nov 3 by footers |
Makes you wonder why they haven't pissed off to Monaco or other low/no-tax jurisdictions if their lives are so miserable in the UK... |
Exactly, like everyone they have to weigh up their situation and act accordingly, but every election we here this and it doesn’t happen.
Also, do people think electing Labour is like Brexit and can never be reversed - if things go badly for the majority they’ll be out in 5 years anyway and the right wing headbangers will have been ousted from controlling the Tories | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 16:08 - Nov 3 with 2234 views | longtimefan |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:37 - Nov 3 by itfcjoe |
Exactly, like everyone they have to weigh up their situation and act accordingly, but every election we here this and it doesn’t happen.
Also, do people think electing Labour is like Brexit and can never be reversed - if things go badly for the majority they’ll be out in 5 years anyway and the right wing headbangers will have been ousted from controlling the Tories |
Not as simple as that for some people, particularly those who might retire in that 5 year period, and might find their pension fund drastically affected by current events. | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 16:10 - Nov 3 with 2232 views | blueislander |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:37 - Nov 3 by itfcjoe |
Exactly, like everyone they have to weigh up their situation and act accordingly, but every election we here this and it doesn’t happen.
Also, do people think electing Labour is like Brexit and can never be reversed - if things go badly for the majority they’ll be out in 5 years anyway and the right wing headbangers will have been ousted from controlling the Tories |
Or , hopefully the moderate wings of both the major parties will come together and form a credible third party. Mind you, there are an awful lot of people who vote Labour or Conservative because they always have, and really have little idea of the policies for which they are voting. | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 16:54 - Nov 3 with 2203 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 16:10 - Nov 3 by blueislander |
Or , hopefully the moderate wings of both the major parties will come together and form a credible third party. Mind you, there are an awful lot of people who vote Labour or Conservative because they always have, and really have little idea of the policies for which they are voting. |
The only problem with that is our moderate centre have never shown much appetite for addressing structural problems in society and our economy, especially regional ones.
Labour under Blair and Brown was of course better than the Conservative alternative but not sure they did much more than slow down the still widening gaps. Ditto the LibDems in coalition.
The centre isn't progressive and a real alternative as much as it reinforces the status quo and makes the reversal of many damaging trends that bit more difficult. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:10 - Nov 3 with 2185 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:33 - Nov 3 by footers |
Makes you wonder why they haven't pissed off to Monaco or other low/no-tax jurisdictions if their lives are so miserable in the UK... |
Their lives are good in the UK, hence their staying.
I think if JC get's in then it will change for the worse (for all of us) and they will go. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:17 - Nov 3 with 2182 views | itfcjoe |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:10 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
Their lives are good in the UK, hence their staying.
I think if JC get's in then it will change for the worse (for all of us) and they will go. |
And so will JC if everyone’s life is worse | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:26 - Nov 3 with 2169 views | Mullet |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:07 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
my use of Cauldwell as an example is simply a reaction to people using 'people' as targets.
Business's can't change under the current rules. Maximise shareholder value and paying 100% of tax as it is due are conflicts of interest.
If you press that too hard we become a desert.
I'm not agreeing with it, but I can compromise. |
But that's why it's nonsensical, if someone has attacked him etc. I'd understand, but you're suggesting you've plucked him out of the air as someone who pays his dues.
People aren't angry at that. They're angry that kids are homeless, crime is up, the NHS is being carved up and every quantitative and qualitative measure of poverty and social inequality has spiralled upward under the Tories.
Asking those who are making massive amounts of wealth pay what is owed has nothing to do with Cauldwell by your own reasoning. People are well within their rights to demand that the treasury collects from those with the most, what it does from us, and what is owed.
I'd rather lose Amazon than Addenbrooks. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:32 - Nov 3 with 2160 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:26 - Nov 3 by Mullet |
But that's why it's nonsensical, if someone has attacked him etc. I'd understand, but you're suggesting you've plucked him out of the air as someone who pays his dues.
People aren't angry at that. They're angry that kids are homeless, crime is up, the NHS is being carved up and every quantitative and qualitative measure of poverty and social inequality has spiralled upward under the Tories.
Asking those who are making massive amounts of wealth pay what is owed has nothing to do with Cauldwell by your own reasoning. People are well within their rights to demand that the treasury collects from those with the most, what it does from us, and what is owed.
I'd rather lose Amazon than Addenbrooks. |
There may be some confusion here.
I chose his as an exemplar as to a wealth person paying tax.
If everyone acted in that manner there would be less problems.
You state that the likes of him should be taxed MORE! If we can't get the current UHNW population to pay what is a generous level of tax then raising it won't help.
I don't see JC's or your logic.
If we can leave things as they are and encourage UHNW's to pay the current levels then your problem will be helped. Just raising it will make things worse. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:37 - Nov 3 with 2144 views | Mullet |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:32 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
There may be some confusion here.
I chose his as an exemplar as to a wealth person paying tax.
If everyone acted in that manner there would be less problems.
You state that the likes of him should be taxed MORE! If we can't get the current UHNW population to pay what is a generous level of tax then raising it won't help.
I don't see JC's or your logic.
If we can leave things as they are and encourage UHNW's to pay the current levels then your problem will be helped. Just raising it will make things worse. |
I haven't and didn't state there anywhere at all. Quite the opposite.
I'm suggesting that if he pays what is owed, he's not going to be a target for anyone nor worthy of criticism. I'm suggesting that the people who should be taxed and avoid it, or refuse to pay in any way possible should be punished or waved off frankly.
That's who people are angry at, that's who all of us should be angry at, and the government should be pursuing them with every effort possible to pay up what's fair and what's right. If that in turn means a raise of taxes to put back what the Tories have destroyed to benefit the few, then so be it. But that's so far down the road, it's futile to even discuss it as a reality yet. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:46 - Nov 3 with 2124 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 15:12 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
Trickle down economics is a flawed idea.
I've not mentioned it specifically as he has created huge amounts of wealth, therefore tax in many forms, for the exchequer.
Trickle down focuses on one person and their consumption.
My use of him shows that if everyone paid their tax AT CURRENT LEVELS the exchequer would be awash.
He is showing that it's possible to pay your tax and stay rich.
If others followed his example it would be awesome.
You don't need to raise the tax levels to increase the tax take. Just show people it's the 'right thing to do'. |
Hmmm. But our tax take is already a lot lower than most of our European neighbours. How do you increase the take by not raising taxes? VAT is too low for that to come via consumer spending and that just punishes lower earners disproportionately anyway.
This report is useful if you want to see where the leeway is: https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14256
In an ideal world, I'd say the tax mostly needs to be raised in the middle but rents and mortgages could make that an excessive squeeze. Which leaves those at the higher end who aren't troubled by living costs in the same way. [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 17:47]
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 18:44 - Nov 3 with 2098 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:46 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Hmmm. But our tax take is already a lot lower than most of our European neighbours. How do you increase the take by not raising taxes? VAT is too low for that to come via consumer spending and that just punishes lower earners disproportionately anyway.
This report is useful if you want to see where the leeway is: https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14256
In an ideal world, I'd say the tax mostly needs to be raised in the middle but rents and mortgages could make that an excessive squeeze. Which leaves those at the higher end who aren't troubled by living costs in the same way. [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 17:47]
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So to try and, in a few words as the Grand prix is about to start, answer your's and the other point above it.
There is no easy way. My thesis is that by raising taxes less will pay and more will evade and flee.
If we retain taxes - broadly speaking, but properly crack down by investing in some really bright people into the Inland Revenue tax avoidance teams, we will over time increase the tax take.
We need exemplars in society to make the point that 'to have fair taxes we all should pay what is due' 'if we (the UNHM population) we will encourage government to raise taxes yet higher'.....
That's my answer. Have exemplars to press their peers into paying proper taxes. Retain the broad levels and tweak but only tweak..... | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 18:56 - Nov 3 with 2085 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 18:44 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
So to try and, in a few words as the Grand prix is about to start, answer your's and the other point above it.
There is no easy way. My thesis is that by raising taxes less will pay and more will evade and flee.
If we retain taxes - broadly speaking, but properly crack down by investing in some really bright people into the Inland Revenue tax avoidance teams, we will over time increase the tax take.
We need exemplars in society to make the point that 'to have fair taxes we all should pay what is due' 'if we (the UNHM population) we will encourage government to raise taxes yet higher'.....
That's my answer. Have exemplars to press their peers into paying proper taxes. Retain the broad levels and tweak but only tweak..... |
We've not been swamped by Europeans evading their more punitive tax systems. So, I'm guessing that it's not really a legitimate danger.
And there's been nothing to stop us "tweaking the levels" and cutting down on avoidance/evasion all this time. But we've chosen austerity and low investment in society instead.
Whatever the measures and however fair they need to be, we first need the political will and electoral support for more tax to be paid. Not some creeping US Republican idea that society should be thankful for the taxes it already gets. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 19:09 - Nov 3 with 2075 views | footers |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:10 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
Their lives are good in the UK, hence their staying.
I think if JC get's in then it will change for the worse (for all of us) and they will go. |
Oh well, what a shame. The UK can still create a new generation of super-rich for you to bend over backwards for, no worries :) | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 19:23 - Nov 3 with 2048 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 19:09 - Nov 3 by footers |
Oh well, what a shame. The UK can still create a new generation of super-rich for you to bend over backwards for, no worries :) |
No veg? |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 19:29 - Nov 3 with 2044 views | No9 |
I would be surprised if the super rich haven't already locked their money away in some tax haven | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 19:35 - Nov 3 with 2035 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 17:37 - Nov 3 by Mullet |
I haven't and didn't state there anywhere at all. Quite the opposite.
I'm suggesting that if he pays what is owed, he's not going to be a target for anyone nor worthy of criticism. I'm suggesting that the people who should be taxed and avoid it, or refuse to pay in any way possible should be punished or waved off frankly.
That's who people are angry at, that's who all of us should be angry at, and the government should be pursuing them with every effort possible to pay up what's fair and what's right. If that in turn means a raise of taxes to put back what the Tories have destroyed to benefit the few, then so be it. But that's so far down the road, it's futile to even discuss it as a reality yet. |
Ok so I have misunderstood you.
Please accept my doof of the cap.
If I understand you, those who dodge should be shown the door. I agree with that.
If we can tighten-up governance then a lot of problems could be avoided.
That's both corporate and personal btw.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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