| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:36 - Nov 3 with 4867 views | sparks |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 09:04 - Nov 3 by monytowbray |
Odd how the person accusing me of evading discussion has evaded the post where you accused me of evading things to reply here. That’s very odd to not even offer an apology.
The issue you seem to have is you seem resigned to the fact the super rich shouldn’t need to pay tax and should make up their own rules. I know it’s not a simple solution to fix, but it needs to be looked at rather than ignored or taking a defeatist attitude. If I needed to collect as much fire wood as I could for the winter, I’d start with the part of the forest with the most dead wood and work down from there. |
What?? You plainly evaded. I replied explaining... And then you post this disingenuous nonsense.
Then you do similar re zero hours contracts. I replid on that subject to someone else and YOU replied to that, before going on to accuse me of raising something irrelevant.
No point continuing here if you are goin to "do a Callis."
Ta ta.
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Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 07:55 - Nov 3 by mrshallisfit
..... Are you ok the super rich getting private polling information prior to the Brexit vote and gambling money against the pound? Are you ok with zero-hour contracts. Are you ok with widespread tax avoidance whilst we have a social care system that cant afford to properly look after our elderly?......." |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:43 - Nov 3 with 4854 views | NewcyBlue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 08:45 - Nov 3 by monytowbray |
But what does this have to do with my original post here? You’ve linked a thread about my take about wanting to be happier and my personal life within the current system with a political thread about my distain for how the super rich behave.
Are you asking me to lead a civil uprising or something? |
Both threads you say capitalism is at fault.
One thread capitalism makes me you feel depressed.
Another thread you believe the rich, funded by capitalism, wanting to leave to avoid taxes, is abhorrent.
The threads are linked in my opinion. From your first one where you want to live a minimalist life like you hippy and punk friends, then later on wanting to go freelance so you can get more money.
If Joe Smith puts his money elsewhere to avoid inheritance tax for his kids, how does that affect you?
I am not agreeing with what they do, but it’s no different to you wanting to go freelance to increase your earning potential. Everybody wants to look after their future, and the future of their kids.
I think you find this is nothing more than exaggeration, there may be some wealth movement, but the crux of the business and assets will be in the U.K.
Landlords with multiple properties will still be renting those properties out. Businesses won’t shut down and make people unemployed, they may find ways to pay less tax, but there will still be businesses.
You will still look for ways to maximise your earning potential, as will many people theirs.
It’s just the last thread that you started on capitalism was all over the place, it seemed to be a “I hate capitalism, I hate working 40 hours for the man, I want to go freelance for more money”.
Good luck in your future endeavours anyway. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:48 - Nov 3 with 4845 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:43 - Nov 3 by NewcyBlue |
Both threads you say capitalism is at fault.
One thread capitalism makes me you feel depressed.
Another thread you believe the rich, funded by capitalism, wanting to leave to avoid taxes, is abhorrent.
The threads are linked in my opinion. From your first one where you want to live a minimalist life like you hippy and punk friends, then later on wanting to go freelance so you can get more money.
If Joe Smith puts his money elsewhere to avoid inheritance tax for his kids, how does that affect you?
I am not agreeing with what they do, but it’s no different to you wanting to go freelance to increase your earning potential. Everybody wants to look after their future, and the future of their kids.
I think you find this is nothing more than exaggeration, there may be some wealth movement, but the crux of the business and assets will be in the U.K.
Landlords with multiple properties will still be renting those properties out. Businesses won’t shut down and make people unemployed, they may find ways to pay less tax, but there will still be businesses.
You will still look for ways to maximise your earning potential, as will many people theirs.
It’s just the last thread that you started on capitalism was all over the place, it seemed to be a “I hate capitalism, I hate working 40 hours for the man, I want to go freelance for more money”.
Good luck in your future endeavours anyway. |
That's a bit unfair.
There's a clear indication that full-on market economies make people unhappy as well as increasing the imbalances and gap between the rich and poor.
The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:00 - Nov 3 with 4776 views | NewcyBlue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:48 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
That's a bit unfair.
There's a clear indication that full-on market economies make people unhappy as well as increasing the imbalances and gap between the rich and poor.
The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive. |
I just see a bit of hypocrisy in the opinion. That’s all.
Luckily we have a general election coming up and people can vote for a change, I see merit in some of the labour policies. I see merit in Lib Dem’s policies.
Unfortunately the extremism on the left and right make talking politics a clusterfck.
Until a grown up conversation can be had that isn’t throwing blame all over the place, we will just go round in circles.
There are loop holes. People use them. People do all sorts of stuff they shouldn’t all the time, undertaking, taking drugs, “nobody got hurt”, sure that time.
I think until we are willing to take ownership of our actions and our futures we shouldn’t blame others for the situation we find ourselves in.
I’ve lived in a car for 2 and a bit years after the council required the disabled flat my mother and I had after she died. I was given 14 days to empty it and no other advice. If I wasn’t at sea or at the marine school it was the car as I was effectively an apprentice, on an apprentices wages.
Reading someone moan about wealthier people move their money elsewhere just rankles me. As did the previous thread about capitalism being the cause of the OPs woes.
If the OP goes freelance I have no doubt he will make a success of it. I wish him luck. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:02 - Nov 3 with 4765 views | jjblue84 |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:35 - Nov 3 by BlueNomad |
Do you really think the Soviet Union, especially under Stalin, had anything to do with Socialism?? |
It’s the denial that’s the worst part!  |  | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:04 - Nov 3 with 4764 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:02 - Nov 3 by jjblue84 |
It’s the denial that’s the worst part! |
It is indeed. Can you answer the question, please? | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:10 - Nov 3 with 4748 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:00 - Nov 3 by NewcyBlue |
I just see a bit of hypocrisy in the opinion. That’s all.
Luckily we have a general election coming up and people can vote for a change, I see merit in some of the labour policies. I see merit in Lib Dem’s policies.
Unfortunately the extremism on the left and right make talking politics a clusterfck.
Until a grown up conversation can be had that isn’t throwing blame all over the place, we will just go round in circles.
There are loop holes. People use them. People do all sorts of stuff they shouldn’t all the time, undertaking, taking drugs, “nobody got hurt”, sure that time.
I think until we are willing to take ownership of our actions and our futures we shouldn’t blame others for the situation we find ourselves in.
I’ve lived in a car for 2 and a bit years after the council required the disabled flat my mother and I had after she died. I was given 14 days to empty it and no other advice. If I wasn’t at sea or at the marine school it was the car as I was effectively an apprentice, on an apprentices wages.
Reading someone moan about wealthier people move their money elsewhere just rankles me. As did the previous thread about capitalism being the cause of the OPs woes.
If the OP goes freelance I have no doubt he will make a success of it. I wish him luck. |
Not really sure why people can't also look at society through a bigger lens than just their own experiences.
We also need to take ownership of what we believe in or allow to become the accepted truth. That's why in my case I'm frequently asking people to look at the facts or step outside the UK bubble and look at countries where they think about things differently and manage better. Always returning to the same insular beliefs about the UK many of which are misleading or anecdotal is madness. [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 13:10]
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:18 - Nov 3 with 4695 views | NewcyBlue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:10 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Not really sure why people can't also look at society through a bigger lens than just their own experiences.
We also need to take ownership of what we believe in or allow to become the accepted truth. That's why in my case I'm frequently asking people to look at the facts or step outside the UK bubble and look at countries where they think about things differently and manage better. Always returning to the same insular beliefs about the UK many of which are misleading or anecdotal is madness. [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 13:10]
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I believe in doing the best I can for my local community, I can have a bigger impact on that.
I know I am a man of many limitations, but what I can do, I do. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:21 - Nov 3 with 4686 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:18 - Nov 3 by NewcyBlue |
I believe in doing the best I can for my local community, I can have a bigger impact on that.
I know I am a man of many limitations, but what I can do, I do. |
Good for you. I think looking out for those around you and improving society at a deeper level are both needed. As I'd hate to think your efforts and others like you are being used to fill gaps and shoulder burdens that we should be resolving as a society. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:26 - Nov 3 with 4646 views | NewcyBlue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:21 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Good for you. I think looking out for those around you and improving society at a deeper level are both needed. As I'd hate to think your efforts and others like you are being used to fill gaps and shoulder burdens that we should be resolving as a society. |
How do we resolve that as a society?
We vote. We petition. We support our communities.
We are a deeply divided nation and politicians are playing on that at the moment. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:27 - Nov 3 with 4641 views | tractordownsouth |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 08:00 - Nov 3 by jjblue84 |
I’m not sure how turning the country into Venezuela is going to help solve any of these issues... |
Venezuela's problems were caused by a lack of export diversity and an over reliance on a commodity ( oil) with fluctuating prices. 80% of their exports were oil, and they made the mistake of not spending the profits they made on other industries, which would have left them less vulnerable to external shocks... Plus their corporate tax rate is 34%, which is much higher than Labour's proposal....
I can bet you none of that is going to be in Labour's manifesto... |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:29 - Nov 3 with 4636 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:26 - Nov 3 by NewcyBlue |
How do we resolve that as a society?
We vote. We petition. We support our communities.
We are a deeply divided nation and politicians are playing on that at the moment. |
Agreed.
Maybe time to cut out all the chatter and vote for parties that believe the country is more than an economy but a home for all its citizens, especially those least able to take advantage of "opportunities"? | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:30 - Nov 3 with 4623 views | jjblue84 |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:04 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
It is indeed. Can you answer the question, please? |
Can you let me sew my sides back up first? What are they teaching them in those schools these days?? | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:31 - Nov 3 with 4623 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:30 - Nov 3 by jjblue84 |
Can you let me sew my sides back up first? What are they teaching them in those schools these days?? |
Still waiting ... | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:37 - Nov 3 with 4578 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 11:32 - Nov 3 by DanTheMan |
These people do not work in a vacuum. They don't spawn money from nothing.
He will have grown up and gone to schools paid for by everyone else. He will have lived in a society where healthcare is available to all, paid for by others. He and his businesses will have used infrastructure that is paid for by everyone.
The services his companies provided will have been bought by working class people, and the people who actually do a lot of the work will make working class wages.
I imagine he does not work 1,000 times harder than the average man. I imagine if he was born in a remote village in Peru he would not be a billionaire. He had a certain level of luck in that he was born in a time and place where he had a certain set of skills that allowed him to be very successful.
People focus on the top because those people have more. Yes they create jobs, but the only reason those jobs are there is because they sell something that people who are not that wealthy want.
We ask those who have more to contribute more to society, to not be greedy and hoard that wealth that they are incredibly fortunate to have. |
He has paid his fair share of tax for all the public services he has received. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:42 - Nov 3 with 4553 views | hampstead_blue |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 11:12 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Steady on!
Caudwell hasn't created a new industry and it's perhaps only latterly that he may have brought money into the economy through overseas operations and sales.
He offered a phone selling and billing service at the same time as other companies were offering the same service, so if it wasn't him it would be someone else. This isn't new money. |
I hear you.
I've just used him as an example.
He's not create something new but clearly done it much better than other people, hence his success.
I am comfortable giving entrepreneurs space (regulation) and money (tax breaks for start-ups) to try new things.
We have to support people like Cauldwell. I've exited a reasonably successful business and enjoyed the benefits. I've also lost money on my last start-up.
Without wealth creators everything would taste the same - unionised gruel.
I really don't understand why there is such anger at success.
Socialism doesn't work - Power corrupts, Absolute power, absolutely corrupts. If the first is capitalism then the second is sure as hell socialism....think Russian under Putin. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:45 - Nov 3 with 4544 views | Mullet |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:42 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
I hear you.
I've just used him as an example.
He's not create something new but clearly done it much better than other people, hence his success.
I am comfortable giving entrepreneurs space (regulation) and money (tax breaks for start-ups) to try new things.
We have to support people like Cauldwell. I've exited a reasonably successful business and enjoyed the benefits. I've also lost money on my last start-up.
Without wealth creators everything would taste the same - unionised gruel.
I really don't understand why there is such anger at success.
Socialism doesn't work - Power corrupts, Absolute power, absolutely corrupts. If the first is capitalism then the second is sure as hell socialism....think Russian under Putin. |
It's not Cauldwell people are worried about let alone angry at though is it? It's a false premise to cite him.
People are angry that companies who don't pay their fair share bully the government into threatening to go elsewhere. Which they won't, because if they're valuable at all anyway, they have too many assets, jobs and prestige invested in the UK to just up sticks.
Very telling that minor celebs and millionaires are so enraged by Corbyn's tweet. They'll never be close to that bracket, but are acting as if he's talking directly to them. |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:55 - Nov 3 with 4526 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:42 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
I hear you.
I've just used him as an example.
He's not create something new but clearly done it much better than other people, hence his success.
I am comfortable giving entrepreneurs space (regulation) and money (tax breaks for start-ups) to try new things.
We have to support people like Cauldwell. I've exited a reasonably successful business and enjoyed the benefits. I've also lost money on my last start-up.
Without wealth creators everything would taste the same - unionised gruel.
I really don't understand why there is such anger at success.
Socialism doesn't work - Power corrupts, Absolute power, absolutely corrupts. If the first is capitalism then the second is sure as hell socialism....think Russian under Putin. |
Well, I really don't understand why there is such apathy towards resolving the deep social and regional issues in this country.
The idea that we keep paying into a system (and indeed topping it from time to time with central funds) that encourages and reinforces those divisions is madness.
Trickle-down economics doesn't work. The idea that Caudwell's massive personal wealth is a good thing for wider society is just an outdated belief in liberty always trumping equality, when it's obvious from the number of people disadvantaged by that there should be far more of a balance.
Caudwell would still be wildly successful even if he only had a fraction of his wealth. But we're not even talking about reducing it to that "little", just percentage points.
But on a tangent, is the UK more entrepreneurial and innovative than other countries in Europe that pay more personal and corporate tax? Isn't entrepreneurial spirit and innovative knowledge driven by social standards (health, education, welfare) just as much as the pursuit of profit? [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 13:57]
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:55 - Nov 3 with 4525 views | DanTheMan |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:37 - Nov 3 by hampstead_blue |
He has paid his fair share of tax for all the public services he has received. |
How do you know how much tax he has paid?
Also you've ignored the majority of the rest of my post.
What's strange to me is that he is one of those incredibly wealthy people who have signed up to give up to half of their money over the course of their life to charity, and yet when he's potentially being asked to pay more for public services that he, his companies and his workers rely on, he says "no, I'll just leave".
Even then, why this fixation on this one billionaire? What about all of the rest? |  |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:59 - Nov 3 with 4502 views | blueislander |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 11:34 - Nov 3 by factual_blue |
I don't think the article is about companies like Amazon, but 'high net worth individuals', for whom the UK - and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands - is a tax haven.
So this country has all the hallmarks of a 'shady Caribbean island'.
Apart from the weather. |
Have you heard of the “Common Reporting Standard” ? This agreement which has been embraced by virtually every country in the world , including the UK, the Crown Dependencies, obliges financial institutions to report all income earned in their jurisdiction, and this information is reported to the jurisdiction of residence of every individual. Financial institutions are obliged to have on record the fiscal residence of all their clients. Tax evasion is now very difficult to achieve unless you have your financial assets located in the USA. |  | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:04 - Nov 3 with 4473 views | longtimefan |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 13:55 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Well, I really don't understand why there is such apathy towards resolving the deep social and regional issues in this country.
The idea that we keep paying into a system (and indeed topping it from time to time with central funds) that encourages and reinforces those divisions is madness.
Trickle-down economics doesn't work. The idea that Caudwell's massive personal wealth is a good thing for wider society is just an outdated belief in liberty always trumping equality, when it's obvious from the number of people disadvantaged by that there should be far more of a balance.
Caudwell would still be wildly successful even if he only had a fraction of his wealth. But we're not even talking about reducing it to that "little", just percentage points.
But on a tangent, is the UK more entrepreneurial and innovative than other countries in Europe that pay more personal and corporate tax? Isn't entrepreneurial spirit and innovative knowledge driven by social standards (health, education, welfare) just as much as the pursuit of profit? [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 13:57]
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Isn’t part of the problem that there doesn’t seem to be any real detail to this policy. It all seems to be an aspirational project with no definitive description of how it will be achieved. Without that detail people will make assumptions as to how it is likely to be implemented. I don’t know if there are details available but I’ve asked twice on this thread without anyone linking any actual Labour plans. | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:10 - Nov 3 with 4457 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:04 - Nov 3 by longtimefan |
Isn’t part of the problem that there doesn’t seem to be any real detail to this policy. It all seems to be an aspirational project with no definitive description of how it will be achieved. Without that detail people will make assumptions as to how it is likely to be implemented. I don’t know if there are details available but I’ve asked twice on this thread without anyone linking any actual Labour plans. |
Fair point. I guess we''ll really have to wait and see in the manifesto.
But interesting to see how the mere concept is being discussed and what the opposing arguments and beliefs are.
And I fail to understand the panic surrounding the idea that we raise our taxes in line with the rest of the developed world ... many of whom are doing better socially, economically and certainly politically than we are. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:15 - Nov 3 with 4443 views | blueislander |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:10 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont |
Fair point. I guess we''ll really have to wait and see in the manifesto.
But interesting to see how the mere concept is being discussed and what the opposing arguments and beliefs are.
And I fail to understand the panic surrounding the idea that we raise our taxes in line with the rest of the developed world ... many of whom are doing better socially, economically and certainly politically than we are. |
People tend to quote Sweden as being a successful high tax jurisdiction. I don’t know anyone who lives there, so I couldn’t comment on how content the populace is under this regime, although you do not hear stories of civil unrest there. | | | |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:20 - Nov 3 with 4437 views | Darth_Koont |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:15 - Nov 3 by blueislander |
People tend to quote Sweden as being a successful high tax jurisdiction. I don’t know anyone who lives there, so I couldn’t comment on how content the populace is under this regime, although you do not hear stories of civil unrest there. |
Not just Sweden. It's all of Northern Europe.
You can't make an immediate link between higher taxation and the absence of the major social and regional imbalances that affect the UK as it still depends on how the money is spent. But as a wealth and value redistribution tool taxation is as good as any. | |
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| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 14:31 - Nov 3 with 4413 views | monytowbray |
| Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 12:36 - Nov 3 by sparks |
What?? You plainly evaded. I replied explaining... And then you post this disingenuous nonsense.
Then you do similar re zero hours contracts. I replid on that subject to someone else and YOU replied to that, before going on to accuse me of raising something irrelevant.
No point continuing here if you are goin to "do a Callis."
Ta ta.
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Capitalism truly has created an unstoppable monster on 07:55 - Nov 3 by mrshallisfit
..... Are you ok the super rich getting private polling information prior to the Brexit vote and gambling money against the pound? Are you ok with zero-hour contracts. Are you ok with widespread tax avoidance whilst we have a social care system that cant afford to properly look after our elderly?......." |
Read who posted about ZHC. Clue, it wasn’t me. You claimed I brought it up. I replied to your last post on that subject. You choose to ignore it.
God forbid you ever have to admit being wrong about even the tiniest mistake. [Post edited 3 Nov 2019 14:36]
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