Cancel culture 08:25 - Jul 8 with 18554 views | hampstead_blue | Interesting and good that people with a voice are standing up to this. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53330105 A lawyer on Today even floated the idea of cancelling ALL historical statues, paintings, and physical memorials because 'standards change and people whom today seem great may be hiding dark secrets' Bonkers. Am all for free speech. Owen Jones and his cabal can scream "offence" until their lungs turn inside out. Makes my blood boil if you hadn't guessed. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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Cancel culture on 13:22 - Jul 9 with 458 views | footers |
A clear failure of process. And you'd rather deny all trans people their identities off the back of that instead of looking to improve processes? | |
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Cancel culture on 13:24 - Jul 9 with 455 views | Libero |
Rapist commits more rapes in prison. Appreciate you offering a source, disgusting crime but it's not quite the example you're hoping for to solidify your views in my opinion. It'd more pertinent if we had access to statistics regarding how many women have been attacked in women's bathrooms/changing rooms and other "safe spaces" by transgender women in recent times, I think that would put this argument to bed rather comfortably and illustrate how disproportionate this "fear" is. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 13:25]
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Cancel culture on 13:27 - Jul 9 with 440 views | Herbivore |
Cancel culture on 12:52 - Jul 9 by Ryorry | Excellent reply, well said. Re your point 10 - that's extremely saddening re the suicide rates amongst trans, and of course they deserve our support. No-one on here is condemning trans people tho are they? (I haven't seen anyone do so anyway) - the issue here isn't transphobia (altho some seem to want to turn it into that), it's about the rights of different groups to feel and be safe in particular spaces which have until recent times traditionally been private (see also objections to turning single-sex hospital wards into unisex, which there has also been plenty of protest about). |
People are very much othering trans people and are very much treating trans women as though their key defining feature is that they have a penis. That is transphobic and deeply offensive to trans women. It's implicit in your post too. If we have single sex wards that are split into male and female, much as we do with changing areas and toilets, then where do trans women go? The suggestion is that they can't go into the women's areas because they have a penis. The fact they live and identify as women is rendered unimportant and all that becomes important is what is between their legs. Given a binary choice the implication is that they should go to men's areas where they are surrounded by people who they don't identify with and who, historically and currently, have posed a threat towards them. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:29 - Jul 9 with 432 views | lowhouseblue |
Cancel culture on 13:22 - Jul 9 by footers | A clear failure of process. And you'd rather deny all trans people their identities off the back of that instead of looking to improve processes? |
no. it's not a question of denying them their identity. they must be able to live according to whatever gender they choose. but it is a question of allowing biological women a say in who has access to particular spaces. sometimes biology trumps gender and we have to be able to have grown up conversations about it which respect the rights of biological women. abuse survivors, for example, also need to have their experiences respected. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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Cancel culture on 13:32 - Jul 9 with 411 views | Ryorry |
Cancel culture on 13:20 - Jul 9 by footers | Hmmm. I simply wouldn't like to deny trans people the right to their newfound genders simply because one or two 'bad apples' might slip through the net. And as per a previous post on this thread, this really only applies to one subset of trans people, which is why labeling all trans people as potential sex attackers is worrying to me. I know you may not agree, but I'd rather focus on that integration and increase security if there's a real, growing concern. Any way that women who feel uncomfortable sharing those facilities with a trans person should be looked at instead of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. There must be another way than this idea of a fourth toilet, which to me feels discriminatory and totally the opposite of what trans people deserve. |
"which is why labeling all trans people as potential sex attackers is worrying to me." I have three times specifically pointed out that I am *not* "labeling all trans people as potential sex attackers". I'm sorry that you're unable to see this issue from the point of view of biological females (btw a pov that I have seen literally millions of other biological women on social media post, highlight & agree with). It's going to take geniuses to find a workable solution to the conflicting rights of the different groups here, and as I'm not a genius, I'm going to leave it there. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:33 - Jul 9 with 409 views | Libero |
Cancel culture on 13:29 - Jul 9 by lowhouseblue | no. it's not a question of denying them their identity. they must be able to live according to whatever gender they choose. but it is a question of allowing biological women a say in who has access to particular spaces. sometimes biology trumps gender and we have to be able to have grown up conversations about it which respect the rights of biological women. abuse survivors, for example, also need to have their experiences respected. |
It's an interesting point and I agree that of course biological women should be heard, but it appears that you're insinuating that if "biological women" show a disproportionate fear of something it's irrelevant if it is in fact a prejudicial and bigoted view and that it should be carried out regardless. That makes zero sense. That's without even digging into the idea that majority of biological women hold these preconceptions and views... [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 13:36]
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Cancel culture on 13:34 - Jul 9 with 406 views | lowhouseblue |
Cancel culture on 13:27 - Jul 9 by Herbivore | People are very much othering trans people and are very much treating trans women as though their key defining feature is that they have a penis. That is transphobic and deeply offensive to trans women. It's implicit in your post too. If we have single sex wards that are split into male and female, much as we do with changing areas and toilets, then where do trans women go? The suggestion is that they can't go into the women's areas because they have a penis. The fact they live and identify as women is rendered unimportant and all that becomes important is what is between their legs. Given a binary choice the implication is that they should go to men's areas where they are surrounded by people who they don't identify with and who, historically and currently, have posed a threat towards them. |
clearly their key defining feature is not that they have a penis. no one has said that. in most situations - almost all situations - their most defining feature is their gender and that they identify as female. but they are biologically male - something you haven't tried to deny but for some reason won't actually confirm - and there are instances, small in number, where being biological male is relevant. we need to have grown up discussions about where this applies and we need to respect the views of biological women. the lived experience of biological women matters. gender is not the only dimension that matters and to pretend that it is is misogynist. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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Cancel culture on 13:34 - Jul 9 with 404 views | Herbivore |
Cancel culture on 13:04 - Jul 9 by lowhouseblue | ok very sad. you can't discuss stuff or defend your views when challenged, but instead you call people transphobic. i guess that's what social media teaches you. |
Grow up. I've repeatedly defended my position and you go back to the same reductive argument. I'm tired of examining to you why the position you're adopting in repeatedly calling trans women people with penises is transphobic. I'm done attempting to educate you. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:34 - Jul 9 with 403 views | Libero |
Cancel culture on 13:32 - Jul 9 by Ryorry | "which is why labeling all trans people as potential sex attackers is worrying to me." I have three times specifically pointed out that I am *not* "labeling all trans people as potential sex attackers". I'm sorry that you're unable to see this issue from the point of view of biological females (btw a pov that I have seen literally millions of other biological women on social media post, highlight & agree with). It's going to take geniuses to find a workable solution to the conflicting rights of the different groups here, and as I'm not a genius, I'm going to leave it there. |
My wife's a biological female, she reckons you're talking ignorant b0llocks. xoxo | | | |
Cancel culture on 13:36 - Jul 9 with 398 views | lowhouseblue |
Cancel culture on 13:33 - Jul 9 by Libero | It's an interesting point and I agree that of course biological women should be heard, but it appears that you're insinuating that if "biological women" show a disproportionate fear of something it's irrelevant if it is in fact a prejudicial and bigoted view and that it should be carried out regardless. That makes zero sense. That's without even digging into the idea that majority of biological women hold these preconceptions and views... [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 13:36]
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biological women are an oppressed group. have we all forgotten 'me too'. they face discrimination, harassment, violence and socio-economic inequality. within their number there are abuse survivors and victims of violence. for which other oppressed group would you dismiss their fears in this way? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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Cancel culture on 13:37 - Jul 9 with 395 views | lowhouseblue |
Cancel culture on 13:34 - Jul 9 by Herbivore | Grow up. I've repeatedly defended my position and you go back to the same reductive argument. I'm tired of examining to you why the position you're adopting in repeatedly calling trans women people with penises is transphobic. I'm done attempting to educate you. |
you've restated a line. you haven't engaged with any challenge to it. i assume that you can't. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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Cancel culture on 13:38 - Jul 9 with 394 views | Ryorry |
Cancel culture on 13:34 - Jul 9 by Libero | My wife's a biological female, she reckons you're talking ignorant b0llocks. xoxo |
Yeah, sure, I said that every woman in the universe thinks exactly the same didn't I | |
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Cancel culture on 13:41 - Jul 9 with 384 views | Herbivore |
Cancel culture on 13:29 - Jul 9 by lowhouseblue | no. it's not a question of denying them their identity. they must be able to live according to whatever gender they choose. but it is a question of allowing biological women a say in who has access to particular spaces. sometimes biology trumps gender and we have to be able to have grown up conversations about it which respect the rights of biological women. abuse survivors, for example, also need to have their experiences respected. |
So perhaps a changing room for cis gender women then? That way those cis women who have no issue sharing with trans women can do so and those that do have an issue with it don't have to. Not ideal but still better than othering trans women. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:42 - Jul 9 with 381 views | Libero |
Cancel culture on 13:36 - Jul 9 by lowhouseblue | biological women are an oppressed group. have we all forgotten 'me too'. they face discrimination, harassment, violence and socio-economic inequality. within their number there are abuse survivors and victims of violence. for which other oppressed group would you dismiss their fears in this way? |
Thanks for your response, Nope, haven't forgotten me too, neither do I deny the very real repression of women. I actually get where you're coming from when you put it like that, the problem is that in my opinion your logic is flawed, both groups are oppressed groups at risk of everything you stated there. It's not as simple as one group trumps the other, as I insinuated in the last post to you, you're working from the idea that the vast majority of women have an issue with transgender women in their "safe spaces" - I don't believe that to be true, do you have anything you can give me that could change my mind? Some kind of quantifiable data or study? Or maybe a story that clearly resonated on a profound scale with biological women of all different race/ethnicity/religion? Let's get the debate back on track, change my mind! :) | | | |
Cancel culture on 13:43 - Jul 9 with 378 views | Libero |
Cancel culture on 13:38 - Jul 9 by Ryorry | Yeah, sure, I said that every woman in the universe thinks exactly the same didn't I |
No, you've not directly stated it, but It's an insinuation that's woven into yours and a few others arguments on this bathroom issue. | | | |
Cancel culture on 13:44 - Jul 9 with 376 views | Ryorry |
Cancel culture on 13:41 - Jul 9 by Herbivore | So perhaps a changing room for cis gender women then? That way those cis women who have no issue sharing with trans women can do so and those that do have an issue with it don't have to. Not ideal but still better than othering trans women. |
Can you describe that in more detail please? because on the face of it, it sounds like my 4th room suggestion. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:45 - Jul 9 with 374 views | lowhouseblue |
Cancel culture on 13:41 - Jul 9 by Herbivore | So perhaps a changing room for cis gender women then? That way those cis women who have no issue sharing with trans women can do so and those that do have an issue with it don't have to. Not ideal but still better than othering trans women. |
i've got nothing at all against mixed changing rooms provided there are alternatives for those who find that uncomfortable. the availability of mixed loos and changing rooms, alongside segregated ones, is a good practical step which avoids anyone having to out themselves. good solution. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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Cancel culture on 13:46 - Jul 9 with 369 views | Herbivore |
Cancel culture on 13:38 - Jul 9 by Ryorry | Yeah, sure, I said that every woman in the universe thinks exactly the same didn't I |
You did say "millions of women" which I do find quite improbable given how long it would take to read the views of that many women. I imagine it's more likely hundreds. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:47 - Jul 9 with 367 views | Ryorry |
Cancel culture on 13:43 - Jul 9 by Libero | No, you've not directly stated it, but It's an insinuation that's woven into yours and a few others arguments on this bathroom issue. |
I didn't mean to insinuate it, completely not there as far as I'm concerned, but if that's your take on it, then I'm sorry. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:47 - Jul 9 with 363 views | Ewan_Oozami |
Cancel culture on 13:36 - Jul 9 by lowhouseblue | biological women are an oppressed group. have we all forgotten 'me too'. they face discrimination, harassment, violence and socio-economic inequality. within their number there are abuse survivors and victims of violence. for which other oppressed group would you dismiss their fears in this way? |
It's not their fears are being dismissed, it's that another oppressed group's right to have a safe space is just as valid - the fact that trans people are oppressed by both men and women means they get it from both sides - and if you think other oppressed groups aren't treated the same way, have you seen how disabled people get discriminated against and marginalised, even in the 21st century, and they even have their own toilets? | |
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Cancel culture on 13:49 - Jul 9 with 363 views | Ryorry |
Cancel culture on 13:46 - Jul 9 by Herbivore | You did say "millions of women" which I do find quite improbable given how long it would take to read the views of that many women. I imagine it's more likely hundreds. |
You're forgetting the 'likes' to thousands of posts on twitter & facebook - individual posts can sometimes literally get hundreds of thousands of 'likes' each. | |
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Cancel culture on 13:49 - Jul 9 with 362 views | Libero |
Cancel culture on 13:47 - Jul 9 by Ryorry | I didn't mean to insinuate it, completely not there as far as I'm concerned, but if that's your take on it, then I'm sorry. |
No need to apologise and I believe it's not what you intended to imply, but as Herb just illustrated you have on a few occasions used the nameless hundreds/thousands/millions who allegedly share your view to reinforce it. I think once you start doing stuff like that it belittles your own point of view, I could be the only person that believes what I'm stating but I still say it with conviction as I have taken the time to consider all sides to come to my conclusion and am open to the prospect of being wrong. | | | |
Cancel culture on 13:51 - Jul 9 with 354 views | Herbivore |
Cancel culture on 13:44 - Jul 9 by Ryorry | Can you describe that in more detail please? because on the face of it, it sounds like my 4th room suggestion. |
Because here it is those who choose not to share what could be their space with trans women who would use a different space. Trans women and cis women who are comfortable using the same space can do so. Your suggestion seemed to be more on the lines of having a separate trans space. It's still not an ideal solution to be honest but it means trans women don't have to use a space that is labelled as something other than female. Edit - and lowie's suggestion of having mixed areas and separate private spaces is potentially a good one that enables people to go where they feel most comfortable. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 13:54]
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Cancel culture on 13:53 - Jul 9 with 349 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Cancel culture on 12:03 - Jul 9 by Libero | I stepped away from the thread as it's become a bit wild again. Just returned to say that I think you're right, but I would say that there's a difference between a lot of the ignorance being communicated surrounding the bathroom issue and the genuine and complicated issue of sporting competition. P.S (sorry to Healy who posted a perfectly pertinent and reasonable reply to something I wrote that as a result of stepping away from the thread I didn't respond to, appreciated your response and respected your stance) |
Thanks and no need to apologise, I don’t really blame you It’s a shame what could have been a good thread and debate has turned into the usual car crash, but there you go | |
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Cancel culture on 13:54 - Jul 9 with 345 views | LittleBoyBlue |
Cancel culture on 13:36 - Jul 9 by lowhouseblue | biological women are an oppressed group. have we all forgotten 'me too'. they face discrimination, harassment, violence and socio-economic inequality. within their number there are abuse survivors and victims of violence. for which other oppressed group would you dismiss their fears in this way? |
You are only half right there. Some easy to find national statistics for you. 45% of domestic abuse and sexual abuse victims in this country are Male, perpetrated by females. Men are 9 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than females. 8% of men and women are not biologically female or male, but are a mixture of both with more dominant or recessive attributes. So by your own definition, they should each have their own safe spaces as they are each oppressed when forced to live in a equal society. What you actually want is one seperate rule for yourself and don't actually care about others that suffer. | |
| "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." |
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