| Cancel culture 08:25 - Jul 8 with 17386 views | hampstead_blue |
Interesting and good that people with a voice are standing up to this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53330105
A lawyer on Today even floated the idea of cancelling ALL historical statues, paintings, and physical memorials because 'standards change and people whom today seem great may be hiding dark secrets'
Bonkers.
Am all for free speech. Owen Jones and his cabal can scream "offence" until their lungs turn inside out. Makes my blood boil if you hadn't guessed. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Cancel culture on 13:55 - Jul 9 with 817 views | Libero |
| Cancel culture on 13:53 - Jul 9 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Thanks and no need to apologise, I don’t really blame you
It’s a shame what could have been a good thread and debate has turned into the usual car crash, but there you go |
It's sh1tty, but I understand how tempers become frayed on both sides.
I just decided to step out when it got a bit repetitive (as long threads often do)
I've come back in with renewed vigour and tried to engage with lowie, I'm keen to see his response to my last post as his last post really opened up in my mind how exactly he see's it and I feel I have a greater understanding of where he stands. |  | | |
| Cancel culture on 13:56 - Jul 9 with 808 views | Herbivore |
| Cancel culture on 13:54 - Jul 9 by LittleBoyBlue |
You are only half right there. Some easy to find national statistics for you.
45% of domestic abuse and sexual abuse victims in this country are Male, perpetrated by females.
Men are 9 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than females.
8% of men and women are not biologically female or male, but are a mixture of both with more dominant or recessive attributes.
So by your own definition, they should each have their own safe spaces as they are each oppressed when forced to live in a equal society.
What you actually want is one seperate rule for yourself and don't actually care about others that suffer. |
Can I see a source for that 45% statistic as it's much higher than other sources I've seen. |  |
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| Cancel culture on 13:58 - Jul 9 with 792 views | Ryorry |
| Cancel culture on 13:49 - Jul 9 by Libero |
No need to apologise and I believe it's not what you intended to imply, but as Herb just illustrated you have on a few occasions used the nameless hundreds/thousands/millions who allegedly share your view to reinforce it.
I think once you start doing stuff like that it belittles your own point of view, I could be the only person that believes what I'm stating but I still say it with conviction as I have taken the time to consider all sides to come to my conclusion and am open to the prospect of being wrong. |
Well OK, I'll take on board what you say, but as I said in response to Herbivore above, individual posts on social media can get huge numbers of 'likes', particularly when a thread's been started by a 'name' like Rowling, who having very large numbers of followers generate multiple pages of posts. I think it's widely accepted that 'likes' signify agreement. On Tw & fb, unlike here, you can't downvote. |  |
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| Cancel culture on 14:02 - Jul 9 with 776 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Cancel culture on 13:56 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
Can I see a source for that 45% statistic as it's much higher than other sources I've seen. |
Even if it was 45%, not all of that will be perpetrated by women though... |  |
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| Cancel culture on 14:03 - Jul 9 with 761 views | Ryorry |
| Cancel culture on 13:51 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
Because here it is those who choose not to share what could be their space with trans women who would use a different space. Trans women and cis women who are comfortable using the same space can do so. Your suggestion seemed to be more on the lines of having a separate trans space. It's still not an ideal solution to be honest but it means trans women don't have to use a space that is labelled as something other than female.
Edit - and lowie's suggestion of having mixed areas and separate private spaces is potentially a good one that enables people to go where they feel most comfortable. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 13:54]
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OK, yes that is a bit different and I'd certainly be happy to go with that, good idea 👠| |
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| Cancel culture on 14:05 - Jul 9 with 746 views | Herbivore |
| Cancel culture on 13:53 - Jul 9 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Thanks and no need to apologise, I don’t really blame you
It’s a shame what could have been a good thread and debate has turned into the usual car crash, but there you go |
Car crash is harsh. We actually seem to be finding some common ground, which is rare but refreshing for TWTD. | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:08 - Jul 9 with 729 views | Libero |
| Cancel culture on 13:58 - Jul 9 by Ryorry |
Well OK, I'll take on board what you say, but as I said in response to Herbivore above, individual posts on social media can get huge numbers of 'likes', particularly when a thread's been started by a 'name' like Rowling, who having very large numbers of followers generate multiple pages of posts. I think it's widely accepted that 'likes' signify agreement. On Tw & fb, unlike here, you can't downvote. |
Ryorry, social media isn't an honest barometer of public opinion, they are quite literally designed to be an echo-chamber of sorts.
On top of this there things such as bots that have been paid to like a post X amount of times, as well as your regular people who have multiple accounts and those that mindlessly scroll and like or retweet things without too much thought.
Engagement can be quite easily manufactured/manipulated/exaggerated.
I'm probably explaining it very badly but it's not my area of professional expertise. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 14:11]
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| Cancel culture on 14:10 - Jul 9 with 723 views | Libero |
| Cancel culture on 14:03 - Jul 9 by Ryorry |
OK, yes that is a bit different and I'd certainly be happy to go with that, good idea 👠|
Would you be happy for there to be a similar bathroom for men who are scared of being raped by gay men? | | | |
| Cancel culture on 14:10 - Jul 9 with 720 views | Ryorry |
| Cancel culture on 14:05 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
Car crash is harsh. We actually seem to be finding some common ground, which is rare but refreshing for TWTD. |
And to think I'd been on the point of giving up completely before posting at all this morning. Just shows, can be worth persevering! | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:10 - Jul 9 with 716 views | LittleBoyBlue |
| Cancel culture on 13:56 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
Can I see a source for that 45% statistic as it's much higher than other sources I've seen. |
I will try to source a public site for you. As I work with survivors of abuse, we have these figures available from studies, not necessarily are they the publically available figures, as not all are classed as crimes, because it's still not illegal in this country for a woman to be charged with rape, unless the victim is a minor or in a protected group.
There's definitely inequality there, seeing as Ipswich has 7 shelters for women who are victims of abuse, but currently there isn't a single shelter in the whole of East Anglia for male victims, including male children.
Edit: If you are truly interested in the inequality of people, this is a good starting point for you to learn more. Yes it's wiki, but most of the sources are accurate and from accredited institutions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men
The article speaks sense, there is still an underlying sexism that exists around the world, where both men and women perceive it to be female as victims and males as perpetrators, which is wholly inaccurate, for the exact same crime in 90% of cases a female will be given a lesser sentence than a male, based purely on gender not on the reality of the situation. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 14:27]
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| "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." |
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| Cancel culture on 14:15 - Jul 9 with 692 views | Ryorry |
| Cancel culture on 14:08 - Jul 9 by Libero |
Ryorry, social media isn't an honest barometer of public opinion, they are quite literally designed to be an echo-chamber of sorts.
On top of this there things such as bots that have been paid to like a post X amount of times, as well as your regular people who have multiple accounts and those that mindlessly scroll and like or retweet things without too much thought.
Engagement can be quite easily manufactured/manipulated/exaggerated.
I'm probably explaining it very badly but it's not my area of professional expertise. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 14:11]
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Well OK, I'll take that on board as well, but a) the JKR debate was incredibly passionate on both sides, so not just an echo chamber and b) I know about bots, but even if say 20% on her threads were those, that still leaves huge numbers of real people involved (on both sides). | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:16 - Jul 9 with 687 views | itfcjoe |
| Cancel culture on 13:42 - Jul 9 by Libero |
Thanks for your response,
Nope, haven't forgotten me too, neither do I deny the very real repression of women.
I actually get where you're coming from when you put it like that, the problem is that in my opinion your logic is flawed, both groups are oppressed groups at risk of everything you stated there.
It's not as simple as one group trumps the other, as I insinuated in the last post to you, you're working from the idea that the vast majority of women have an issue with transgender women in their "safe spaces"
- I don't believe that to be true, do you have anything you can give me that could change my mind? Some kind of quantifiable data or study? Or maybe a story that clearly resonated on a profound scale with biological women of all different race/ethnicity/religion?
Let's get the debate back on track, change my mind! :) |
But one group is trumping the other, especially when you bring other groups like non-binary into the equation.
I think the trans-women one is less of an argument, if they are to live as a woman, dress as a woman and act as a woman then they will, in 99% of scenarios, be treated as such. But there is a 1% (0.1%?), and in that area their rights trump biological women, I can't see how that can be argued.
Just simply sticking to toilets, which one do those who don't identify as a gender go in, those that decide their gender based on how they feel that day. I do think that there is a separate 'other' group who muddies the waters, and that there is a big section of people who are very OTT in their acts in trying to support Trans people who make it worse. |  |
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| Cancel culture on 14:22 - Jul 9 with 658 views | Libero |
| Cancel culture on 14:15 - Jul 9 by Ryorry |
Well OK, I'll take that on board as well, but a) the JKR debate was incredibly passionate on both sides, so not just an echo chamber and b) I know about bots, but even if say 20% on her threads were those, that still leaves huge numbers of real people involved (on both sides). |
Yes, Rowling has 14 million followers I believe, a weighty amount for any "conversation"
Regardless of subject the nature of "debate" over these platforms is in my opinion generally pretty toxic and polarising, I really would not consider them representative of "real life"
Watched an interesting video last night about "the death of the author" which asked rhetorically, how can someone separate art from the artist?
I think Rowling sharing her bigotry is going to destroy Harry Potter for a lot of people which is very sad as it played such a big part in a lot of my generation's childhood. | | | |
| Cancel culture on 14:24 - Jul 9 with 650 views | Herbivore |
| Cancel culture on 14:10 - Jul 9 by LittleBoyBlue |
I will try to source a public site for you. As I work with survivors of abuse, we have these figures available from studies, not necessarily are they the publically available figures, as not all are classed as crimes, because it's still not illegal in this country for a woman to be charged with rape, unless the victim is a minor or in a protected group.
There's definitely inequality there, seeing as Ipswich has 7 shelters for women who are victims of abuse, but currently there isn't a single shelter in the whole of East Anglia for male victims, including male children.
Edit: If you are truly interested in the inequality of people, this is a good starting point for you to learn more. Yes it's wiki, but most of the sources are accurate and from accredited institutions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men
The article speaks sense, there is still an underlying sexism that exists around the world, where both men and women perceive it to be female as victims and males as perpetrators, which is wholly inaccurate, for the exact same crime in 90% of cases a female will be given a lesser sentence than a male, based purely on gender not on the reality of the situation. [Post edited 9 Jul 2020 14:27]
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Not sure on that very last point, as a social worker I worked with some male children who were placed with their mums in refuges in Norfolk. Agree though that there aren't enough refuges for men and that male victims likely under report. Women aren't charged with rape because it is defined as penetration with a penis. | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:26 - Jul 9 with 642 views | Herbivore |
| Cancel culture on 14:16 - Jul 9 by itfcjoe |
But one group is trumping the other, especially when you bring other groups like non-binary into the equation.
I think the trans-women one is less of an argument, if they are to live as a woman, dress as a woman and act as a woman then they will, in 99% of scenarios, be treated as such. But there is a 1% (0.1%?), and in that area their rights trump biological women, I can't see how that can be argued.
Just simply sticking to toilets, which one do those who don't identify as a gender go in, those that decide their gender based on how they feel that day. I do think that there is a separate 'other' group who muddies the waters, and that there is a big section of people who are very OTT in their acts in trying to support Trans people who make it worse. |
That's why lots of places are starting to offer gender neutral toilets, which wherever I've seen them used work perfectly well. | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:29 - Jul 9 with 634 views | Libero |
| Cancel culture on 14:16 - Jul 9 by itfcjoe |
But one group is trumping the other, especially when you bring other groups like non-binary into the equation.
I think the trans-women one is less of an argument, if they are to live as a woman, dress as a woman and act as a woman then they will, in 99% of scenarios, be treated as such. But there is a 1% (0.1%?), and in that area their rights trump biological women, I can't see how that can be argued.
Just simply sticking to toilets, which one do those who don't identify as a gender go in, those that decide their gender based on how they feel that day. I do think that there is a separate 'other' group who muddies the waters, and that there is a big section of people who are very OTT in their acts in trying to support Trans people who make it worse. |
Yeah, best to stick to the toilets issue in my opinion.
I did say in an earlier post that I think the sporting issue is completely different and sincerely much more complex.
I think you're opening up a whole different debate with that last paragraph, one which sincerely I don't know the answer too but that the answer most certainly shouldn't based on a groups disproportionate fear of sexual assault by a member of said minority.
Agree there are an extreme element who go too far in their support, just as there are on the side of those that appose - this is the nature of modern debate apparently. | | | |
| Cancel culture on 14:37 - Jul 9 with 611 views | itfcjoe |
| Cancel culture on 14:29 - Jul 9 by Libero |
Yeah, best to stick to the toilets issue in my opinion.
I did say in an earlier post that I think the sporting issue is completely different and sincerely much more complex.
I think you're opening up a whole different debate with that last paragraph, one which sincerely I don't know the answer too but that the answer most certainly shouldn't based on a groups disproportionate fear of sexual assault by a member of said minority.
Agree there are an extreme element who go too far in their support, just as there are on the side of those that appose - this is the nature of modern debate apparently. |
The sporting issue is incredibly simple, people just don't like to say what is obvious for fear of being labelled a transphobe.
Ross Tucker is very good on it, in his science of sport podcasts, this article is long and explains it well - especially around the issue of DSDs like Caster Semenya
Warning - very long read https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-adv | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:40 - Jul 9 with 600 views | LittleBoyBlue |
| Cancel culture on 14:24 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
Not sure on that very last point, as a social worker I worked with some male children who were placed with their mums in refuges in Norfolk. Agree though that there aren't enough refuges for men and that male victims likely under report. Women aren't charged with rape because it is defined as penetration with a penis. |
I understand, I was speaking of the male children of abuse by their female guardians/parent, they are either forced to continue to live with the abuser or are packed off to a children's home, only in rare exceptional cases go they get to stay with the male parent/guardian.
Yes it's society, which stigmatises men, male and female, so they feel unable to report the crimes for fear of ridicule.
It's called FTP, forced to penetrate, it isn't yet an actionable crime, although hopefully after dozens of years of campaigning by male (and a few females), that it's been considered to add it as an actual criminal activity, punishable by law.
I dislike gender arguments, because one side generally always plays the victim card without ever looking at facts, and due to the sexist nature of the majority of society, they agree without even thinking or examining evidence. | |
| "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." |
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| Cancel culture on 14:45 - Jul 9 with 587 views | Herbivore |
| Cancel culture on 14:40 - Jul 9 by LittleBoyBlue |
I understand, I was speaking of the male children of abuse by their female guardians/parent, they are either forced to continue to live with the abuser or are packed off to a children's home, only in rare exceptional cases go they get to stay with the male parent/guardian.
Yes it's society, which stigmatises men, male and female, so they feel unable to report the crimes for fear of ridicule.
It's called FTP, forced to penetrate, it isn't yet an actionable crime, although hopefully after dozens of years of campaigning by male (and a few females), that it's been considered to add it as an actual criminal activity, punishable by law.
I dislike gender arguments, because one side generally always plays the victim card without ever looking at facts, and due to the sexist nature of the majority of society, they agree without even thinking or examining evidence. |
Are you suggesting that society is sexist against men in your last paragraph? | |
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| Cancel culture on 14:52 - Jul 9 with 575 views | Libero |
| Cancel culture on 14:37 - Jul 9 by itfcjoe |
The sporting issue is incredibly simple, people just don't like to say what is obvious for fear of being labelled a transphobe.
Ross Tucker is very good on it, in his science of sport podcasts, this article is long and explains it well - especially around the issue of DSDs like Caster Semenya
Warning - very long read https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-adv |
Yes, I think you're right. I only say it's complex in terms of negotiating the conversation rather than the outcome. | | | |
| Cancel culture on 14:57 - Jul 9 with 562 views | LittleBoyBlue |
| Cancel culture on 14:45 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
Are you suggesting that society is sexist against men in your last paragraph? |
Yes, society, men and women are very unconsciously sexist towards men and women. They have perceptions based on stereotypes that all men are a certain way and all women are a certain way. Often this is that men are the perpetrators of abuse and women the victims, which is wholly inaccurate. Men and women are both equally guilty of perpetrating abusive crimes on the opposite gender, it's just easier for people to view it in a more sexist way.
So many examples can be given, girls play with dolls, boys play with toy soldiers, whilst the accuracy of that is evident, unfortunately it's reinforced by the sexist view of society, parents expect their boys to be playing soldier and their girls to be playing dress up and a lot of parents, peers, friends, family reinforce these stereotypes without thinking. | |
| "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." |
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| Cancel culture on 16:27 - Jul 9 with 494 views | SpruceMoose |
| Cancel culture on 14:26 - Jul 9 by Herbivore |
That's why lots of places are starting to offer gender neutral toilets, which wherever I've seen them used work perfectly well. |
Even my own house has two. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Cancel culture on 16:54 - Jul 9 with 466 views | Herbivore |
| Cancel culture on 14:57 - Jul 9 by LittleBoyBlue |
Yes, society, men and women are very unconsciously sexist towards men and women. They have perceptions based on stereotypes that all men are a certain way and all women are a certain way. Often this is that men are the perpetrators of abuse and women the victims, which is wholly inaccurate. Men and women are both equally guilty of perpetrating abusive crimes on the opposite gender, it's just easier for people to view it in a more sexist way.
So many examples can be given, girls play with dolls, boys play with toy soldiers, whilst the accuracy of that is evident, unfortunately it's reinforced by the sexist view of society, parents expect their boys to be playing soldier and their girls to be playing dress up and a lot of parents, peers, friends, family reinforce these stereotypes without thinking. |
I think there are maybe separate issues here. Gender stereotyping seems to me to be somewhat different to sexism. Of course there is some overlap too, but sexism for me includes things like unequal pay, lack of representation in positions of power, and so on. Those things disproportionately affect women. | |
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| Cancel culture on 17:00 - Jul 9 with 457 views | jeera |
| Cancel culture on 16:27 - Jul 9 by SpruceMoose |
Even my own house has two. |
Don't they still make you go out in the garden? |  |
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