| Grizzle bloke 15:39 - Aug 8 with 35001 views | bluelagos |
So - If - as reported France ends up on the list of quarantine countries and off the FCO list of places to go to....what are the implications for travel?
Can you still travel - but at your own risk?
Presume UK travel insurances wouldn't cover any claims?
Would the EU health card thing (for emergency treatment) still cover you?
Would car/motorbike insurance be valid?
14 days q. on arrival back home if fairly self explanatory.
Have a trip booked where we are transiting France only*...so not worried about the CV risk itself as are flexible and can easily avoid areas with high outbreaks.
(*If we headed to Belgium - it could literally be for 30 minutes... - if Belgium were not also on the list too)
**I fully accept 99% if people wouldn't consider this. Which is fine - good luck to you. Don't need a lecture, just wanting to understand the implications so we can make an informed decision on what is the best thing to do.
|  |
| |  |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:14 - Aug 10 with 2505 views | StokieBlue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:10 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
‘Essentially you are saying that if it's something you were looking forward to then it's fine to do it.’
That wasn’t what I was saying tbf. What I was saying was that the experts decided it was safe to do so. The government were also involved in consultations for it going ahead and gave the green light. So if they deem it safe to do so, then I see no issue. The experts in particular said it was safe.
They are saying holidaying abroad is ok. So then if people listen to what is being said, what’s the problem? Anyone angry at people going abroad in my opinion should be more angry that it’s allowed. Nobody going abroad is disobeying the rules. That was what I was saying. |
Fair enough - that is essentially the gist of my final paragraph without the part about taking some ownership of the decision in the event of something going wrong.
SB |  | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:15 - Aug 10 with 2505 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Grizzle bloke on 10:10 - Aug 10 by Libero |
I'm still struggling Rommers, I'm out of breath just walking to work, can't breath deeply when laying in bed in certain positions, general lethargy and profuse sweating. (whatever the weather)
It reminds me of when I was an obese man, only I'm 14 stone, not 19.
I had some blood tests, now waiting on a date for a chest scan, when people say b0llocks like "it only effects old people" it boils my piss, I am (was? an active and fit 32 year old man and it's absolutely shaken the sh1t out of me.
Having Cheltenham and other Sporting events that weekend was an absolute disaster and undoubtedly aided the virus' spread.
Give it a read, by all means, I'm just not particularly interested in a debate. Most of the British public have been gas-lighted into thinking it's okay to do a whole host of things that are terrible practise for infection control. [Post edited 10 Aug 2020 10:11]
|
That’s not good. Sounds terrible in fact. Hopefully all will be better for you soon.
It probably did. But again.. the blame should go to those who said it was safe to do so. The medical experts and the government particularly. Not for ordinary people like me that chose to go rather than lose out on a grand in tickets and hotel costs.
For what it’s worth, I think the government probably should make a stronger stance with what they say. They’re incredibly flimsy in what people can and can’t do. If they were strong, I’m sure people would listen. The mask situation to one day decide that actually we should wear them was farcical. If they now decided holidays were banned again, they’d look weak. Which of course they don’t want. |  |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:17 - Aug 10 with 2500 views | J2BLUE |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:10 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
‘Essentially you are saying that if it's something you were looking forward to then it's fine to do it.’
That wasn’t what I was saying tbf. What I was saying was that the experts decided it was safe to do so. The government were also involved in consultations for it going ahead and gave the green light. So if they deem it safe to do so, then I see no issue. The experts in particular said it was safe.
They are saying holidaying abroad is ok. So then if people listen to what is being said, what’s the problem? Anyone angry at people going abroad in my opinion should be more angry that it’s allowed. Nobody going abroad is disobeying the rules. That was what I was saying. |
Is it ok to not be angry or judge but if people get the virus or suddenly have to quarantine to not have any sympathy?
The people who went to Spain and then started bitching because they had to quarantine when they got home knew the risks when they chose to go. By all means go, but if it goes wrong, own it. |  |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:17 - Aug 10 with 2499 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:13 - Aug 10 by Libero |
Ah, so you assume the government are following the advice given by the experts? They regularly don't. |
They should. Whether they do or they don’t, we just have to assume that they don’t want to kill us all surely?
Have they got anything to gain by putting out bad medical advice? | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:18 - Aug 10 with 2496 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:15 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
That’s not good. Sounds terrible in fact. Hopefully all will be better for you soon.
It probably did. But again.. the blame should go to those who said it was safe to do so. The medical experts and the government particularly. Not for ordinary people like me that chose to go rather than lose out on a grand in tickets and hotel costs.
For what it’s worth, I think the government probably should make a stronger stance with what they say. They’re incredibly flimsy in what people can and can’t do. If they were strong, I’m sure people would listen. The mask situation to one day decide that actually we should wear them was farcical. If they now decided holidays were banned again, they’d look weak. Which of course they don’t want. |
Mate, the medical experts have repeatedly been ignored by the government as and when it suits them.
I disagree with your stance, I think we all have a personal responsibility, but I appreciate that you're a young lad and that maybe when I was your age and cared about a hobby passionately I might have shown the same kind of blind enthusiasm.
As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the next 6 months there's a huge back track on the freedoms currently being experienced re: travel. |  | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:20 - Aug 10 with 2481 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:17 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
They should. Whether they do or they don’t, we just have to assume that they don’t want to kill us all surely?
Have they got anything to gain by putting out bad medical advice? |
It's herd immunity by the back door, most working in social care or the NHS have witnessed their duplicitous efforts at close quarters.
Put simply, it's profit over people. | | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:21 - Aug 10 with 2474 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:17 - Aug 10 by J2BLUE |
Is it ok to not be angry or judge but if people get the virus or suddenly have to quarantine to not have any sympathy?
The people who went to Spain and then started bitching because they had to quarantine when they got home knew the risks when they chose to go. By all means go, but if it goes wrong, own it. |
That seems fair.
Again I can only really use my own example of Cheltenham. If I’d have caught it and it could be linked to the festival, I’d have probably said ‘yeah look that turned out to be a bad idea’. But at the time, in the moment, we were told it would be safe as long as precautions like sanitiser is taken.
Same with holidayers. They’re told it’s ok to go abroad so if they’re gonna listen, I can’t really moan at them for abiding by the rules. Of course if they were still going abroad after it changes to ‘please don’t travel, it’s very unsafe - stay away’ then I suppose that is very different. But those messages aren’t around at the moment. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:22 - Aug 10 with 2467 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:21 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
That seems fair.
Again I can only really use my own example of Cheltenham. If I’d have caught it and it could be linked to the festival, I’d have probably said ‘yeah look that turned out to be a bad idea’. But at the time, in the moment, we were told it would be safe as long as precautions like sanitiser is taken.
Same with holidayers. They’re told it’s ok to go abroad so if they’re gonna listen, I can’t really moan at them for abiding by the rules. Of course if they were still going abroad after it changes to ‘please don’t travel, it’s very unsafe - stay away’ then I suppose that is very different. But those messages aren’t around at the moment. |
You're right, in that the messaging is all wrong. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Grizzle bloke on 13:23 - Aug 10 with 2459 views | hype313 |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:18 - Aug 10 by Libero |
Mate, the medical experts have repeatedly been ignored by the government as and when it suits them.
I disagree with your stance, I think we all have a personal responsibility, but I appreciate that you're a young lad and that maybe when I was your age and cared about a hobby passionately I might have shown the same kind of blind enthusiasm.
As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the next 6 months there's a huge back track on the freedoms currently being experienced re: travel. |
Personally, I think anyone wanting to go abroad now or in the next few months is bonkers, if the Govt can make snap decisions giving people 45 minute notice about Spain, then everywhere else is fair game.
Also Airports are bad enough, let alone throw in all the other facets that a pandemic brings, i'd rather stick a rusty compass in my scrotum then jump into a bath full of dettox. |  |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:26 - Aug 10 with 2448 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:18 - Aug 10 by Libero |
Mate, the medical experts have repeatedly been ignored by the government as and when it suits them.
I disagree with your stance, I think we all have a personal responsibility, but I appreciate that you're a young lad and that maybe when I was your age and cared about a hobby passionately I might have shown the same kind of blind enthusiasm.
As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the next 6 months there's a huge back track on the freedoms currently being experienced re: travel. |
Might also be worth me saying that 6 people had died in the UK of Coronavirus when the festival was given the green light a couple days before.
And that lockdown didn’t occur for three weeks until after it ended.
I’m not too sure what point I’m trying to make with that but it does seem a relevant thing to point out somehow. Circumstances were very different then compared to now. The scale of it was very much unknown. I have no agenda or anything in this one anyway. I’m just saying how I see it based on the thread as it was this morning. If people want to go abroad, it’s on them. Blame the government for that I guess | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:31 - Aug 10 with 2426 views | J2BLUE |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:26 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Might also be worth me saying that 6 people had died in the UK of Coronavirus when the festival was given the green light a couple days before.
And that lockdown didn’t occur for three weeks until after it ended.
I’m not too sure what point I’m trying to make with that but it does seem a relevant thing to point out somehow. Circumstances were very different then compared to now. The scale of it was very much unknown. I have no agenda or anything in this one anyway. I’m just saying how I see it based on the thread as it was this morning. If people want to go abroad, it’s on them. Blame the government for that I guess |
I enjoyed the festival so i'm not having a go at all but at that point it was a certainty that we were about to be hit. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:31 - Aug 10 with 2424 views | hype313 |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:26 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Might also be worth me saying that 6 people had died in the UK of Coronavirus when the festival was given the green light a couple days before.
And that lockdown didn’t occur for three weeks until after it ended.
I’m not too sure what point I’m trying to make with that but it does seem a relevant thing to point out somehow. Circumstances were very different then compared to now. The scale of it was very much unknown. I have no agenda or anything in this one anyway. I’m just saying how I see it based on the thread as it was this morning. If people want to go abroad, it’s on them. Blame the government for that I guess |
I dunno, we all saw the pictures coming out of Italy long before we went into Lockdown, I pretty much stayed put tail end of Feb, we could all see what was going on.
Can't believe people went to Cheltenham given what was happening around the world, madness. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:34 - Aug 10 with 2419 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:26 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Might also be worth me saying that 6 people had died in the UK of Coronavirus when the festival was given the green light a couple days before.
And that lockdown didn’t occur for three weeks until after it ended.
I’m not too sure what point I’m trying to make with that but it does seem a relevant thing to point out somehow. Circumstances were very different then compared to now. The scale of it was very much unknown. I have no agenda or anything in this one anyway. I’m just saying how I see it based on the thread as it was this morning. If people want to go abroad, it’s on them. Blame the government for that I guess |
Yes, it's certainly relevant but that doesn't really back up your stance, especially as it's widely accepted that the UK Government let us all down in not locking down earlier...
It wasn't so much that "the scale was very much unknown" as the government failed to adequately protect it's people. This is one of the reasons we have been hit as hard as we have.
I appreciate what you're saying and you're responses are clearly from a good place and sincere, I respect them but I 100% disagree with the idea that it's okay to do something just because the government have given the okay.
We all have a personal responsibility to do the right thing and keep our social circles and movements as small and predictable as possible, but when the majority of the public think as yourself it makes it clear that Boris Johnson and co have succeed in pulling the wool over the average person's eyes. | | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 with 2401 views | bluelagos |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:26 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Might also be worth me saying that 6 people had died in the UK of Coronavirus when the festival was given the green light a couple days before.
And that lockdown didn’t occur for three weeks until after it ended.
I’m not too sure what point I’m trying to make with that but it does seem a relevant thing to point out somehow. Circumstances were very different then compared to now. The scale of it was very much unknown. I have no agenda or anything in this one anyway. I’m just saying how I see it based on the thread as it was this morning. If people want to go abroad, it’s on them. Blame the government for that I guess |
Rommy,
Am pretty much with you. I think the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was scandalous. I think everyone who went put their and their contacts lives at risk. I dont blame anyone who went because they were following govt advice.
The idea that as individuals we would be better informed than our leading govt scientists is rather silly. We trust our govt to make the right call and then play within those rules.
Which brings us to today. The govt has opened pubs, restuarants, encouraged us to return to work, to use public transport etc. Some of us would like a holiday too.
If the benefits of socialising, holidaying etc. in terms of our well being out weigh the risks (and there are some) then I have no issue with anybody doing anything within the rules. The rules, by now, are based on a whole load of scientific knowledge and hopefully are more appropriate than the poor decision making / advice that was givein in March.
I feel some people wish to elimate all risks. That's not practical or indeed possible. We all have different attitudes to risk and some are way more cautious than others. That said, some people are way more aware of the dangers too, maybe personally impacted...
But the bottom line for me is that the govt should make the rules, we should abide by them and people unhappy with that, should direct their anger at the rule makers. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 with 2401 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:31 - Aug 10 by J2BLUE |
I enjoyed the festival so i'm not having a go at all but at that point it was a certainty that we were about to be hit. |
Of course. But nobody at that point expected a full scale lockdown! That was definitely not expected | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:43 - Aug 10 with 2380 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:23 - Aug 10 by hype313 |
Personally, I think anyone wanting to go abroad now or in the next few months is bonkers, if the Govt can make snap decisions giving people 45 minute notice about Spain, then everywhere else is fair game.
Also Airports are bad enough, let alone throw in all the other facets that a pandemic brings, i'd rather stick a rusty compass in my scrotum then jump into a bath full of dettox. |
This all comes down to personal choice, some will be more cautious than others. While I can easily respect any personal decision someone makes I don’t accept anyone has the right to be critical of anyone with an alternative view.
As long as guidelines are followed everyone should be OK with it.
I remain hopeful of spending a few days in France later this week. If government advice changes before Thursday we don’t go, if the rules change while we are away then will quarantine on our return. That is my choice the decision to go will be mine, and mine alone.
Will not Interact with more than 5+6 people while away. Will have minimal contact with other passengers, have paid extra to use club lounge on the ferry.. With wife in wheelchair we board first, park by the lift and lounge is only 10-15ft from where we exit the lift. |  |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:44 - Aug 10 with 2377 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Of course. But nobody at that point expected a full scale lockdown! That was definitely not expected |
Sorry to be a stickler here mate, please don't construe this as piling on, but you're wrong.
Many people were predicting exactly that and asking why it hadn't already put into place. | | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:46 - Aug 10 with 2368 views | J2BLUE |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:43 - Aug 10 by Pinewoodblue |
This all comes down to personal choice, some will be more cautious than others. While I can easily respect any personal decision someone makes I don’t accept anyone has the right to be critical of anyone with an alternative view.
As long as guidelines are followed everyone should be OK with it.
I remain hopeful of spending a few days in France later this week. If government advice changes before Thursday we don’t go, if the rules change while we are away then will quarantine on our return. That is my choice the decision to go will be mine, and mine alone.
Will not Interact with more than 5+6 people while away. Will have minimal contact with other passengers, have paid extra to use club lounge on the ferry.. With wife in wheelchair we board first, park by the lift and lounge is only 10-15ft from where we exit the lift. |
You're the definition of understanding the risks and I doubt you'll be bitching if it goes wrong.
Same as Lagos. Like I said, no issues with people taking their chances | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:46 - Aug 10 with 2365 views | hype313 |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Of course. But nobody at that point expected a full scale lockdown! That was definitely not expected |
Seriously? Even at the time people were saying it was madness it was going ahead, Spain went into Lockdown that weekend so it shouldn't have been a surprise even then that we would follow suit. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:47 - Aug 10 with 2363 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 by bluelagos |
Rommy,
Am pretty much with you. I think the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was scandalous. I think everyone who went put their and their contacts lives at risk. I dont blame anyone who went because they were following govt advice.
The idea that as individuals we would be better informed than our leading govt scientists is rather silly. We trust our govt to make the right call and then play within those rules.
Which brings us to today. The govt has opened pubs, restuarants, encouraged us to return to work, to use public transport etc. Some of us would like a holiday too.
If the benefits of socialising, holidaying etc. in terms of our well being out weigh the risks (and there are some) then I have no issue with anybody doing anything within the rules. The rules, by now, are based on a whole load of scientific knowledge and hopefully are more appropriate than the poor decision making / advice that was givein in March.
I feel some people wish to elimate all risks. That's not practical or indeed possible. We all have different attitudes to risk and some are way more cautious than others. That said, some people are way more aware of the dangers too, maybe personally impacted...
But the bottom line for me is that the govt should make the rules, we should abide by them and people unhappy with that, should direct their anger at the rule makers. |
That'd be all well and good if the government were consistently following the Scientific advice and providing clear reasoning and messaging.
They're not, on all accounts. | | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:49 - Aug 10 with 2356 views | Libero |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:43 - Aug 10 by Pinewoodblue |
This all comes down to personal choice, some will be more cautious than others. While I can easily respect any personal decision someone makes I don’t accept anyone has the right to be critical of anyone with an alternative view.
As long as guidelines are followed everyone should be OK with it.
I remain hopeful of spending a few days in France later this week. If government advice changes before Thursday we don’t go, if the rules change while we are away then will quarantine on our return. That is my choice the decision to go will be mine, and mine alone.
Will not Interact with more than 5+6 people while away. Will have minimal contact with other passengers, have paid extra to use club lounge on the ferry.. With wife in wheelchair we board first, park by the lift and lounge is only 10-15ft from where we exit the lift. |
You're right and if the nature of the virus meant that people doing this only put themselves at risk then it'd be fair cop, but that isn't the case. | | | |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:50 - Aug 10 with 2349 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 by The_Romford_Blue |
Of course. But nobody at that point expected a full scale lockdown! That was definitely not expected |
Rommy if you didn’t eSpect a full scale lockdown you were on @ different planet to the rest of us. The decision to go ahead was scandalous, no doubt influenced by the fact the woman currently in charge and test and trace was on the committee that made the decision it was safe to go ahead with Cheltenham. Another case of personal interest defeating common sense. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:51 - Aug 10 with 2347 views | hype313 |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:40 - Aug 10 by bluelagos |
Rommy,
Am pretty much with you. I think the decision to allow Cheltenham to go ahead was scandalous. I think everyone who went put their and their contacts lives at risk. I dont blame anyone who went because they were following govt advice.
The idea that as individuals we would be better informed than our leading govt scientists is rather silly. We trust our govt to make the right call and then play within those rules.
Which brings us to today. The govt has opened pubs, restuarants, encouraged us to return to work, to use public transport etc. Some of us would like a holiday too.
If the benefits of socialising, holidaying etc. in terms of our well being out weigh the risks (and there are some) then I have no issue with anybody doing anything within the rules. The rules, by now, are based on a whole load of scientific knowledge and hopefully are more appropriate than the poor decision making / advice that was givein in March.
I feel some people wish to elimate all risks. That's not practical or indeed possible. We all have different attitudes to risk and some are way more cautious than others. That said, some people are way more aware of the dangers too, maybe personally impacted...
But the bottom line for me is that the govt should make the rules, we should abide by them and people unhappy with that, should direct their anger at the rule makers. |
Agree, but there does come a point where you have to take some personal responsibility/decisions rather than waiting for the official line. It was quite clear that this thing was spreading around Europe like wildfire, I didn't need to be told by anyone that travelling into London wasn't the best idea.
I took the decision a number of weeks before the official line was presented, that I wasn't going to put myself in the line of fire and stay home. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:51 - Aug 10 with 2342 views | bluelagos |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:46 - Aug 10 by J2BLUE |
You're the definition of understanding the risks and I doubt you'll be bitching if it goes wrong.
Same as Lagos. Like I said, no issues with people taking their chances |
Whatever I end up doing, I'll be sure to understand the implications (hence the op) and be adult enough to accept it could be cr*p.
One thing I wont do is be irresponsible. Plan A is riding through Aragon so that is looking unlikely and wont be happening if CV rates stay high there. That is why we are looking at heading to Germany as a Plan B. | |
| |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:55 - Aug 10 with 2330 views | Funge |
| Grizzle bloke on 13:34 - Aug 10 by Libero |
Yes, it's certainly relevant but that doesn't really back up your stance, especially as it's widely accepted that the UK Government let us all down in not locking down earlier...
It wasn't so much that "the scale was very much unknown" as the government failed to adequately protect it's people. This is one of the reasons we have been hit as hard as we have.
I appreciate what you're saying and you're responses are clearly from a good place and sincere, I respect them but I 100% disagree with the idea that it's okay to do something just because the government have given the okay.
We all have a personal responsibility to do the right thing and keep our social circles and movements as small and predictable as possible, but when the majority of the public think as yourself it makes it clear that Boris Johnson and co have succeed in pulling the wool over the average person's eyes. |
Firstly, sorry to hear about your ailment - sounds extremely unpleasant, and I hope that you recover (much) sooner rather than later.
'We all have a personal responsibility to do the right thing and keep our social circles and movements as small and predictable as possible'
I am in broad agreement with your sentiments here, and in full agreement with the first half of this paragraph. However, the whole issue is subjective, and many people will take the view that it is more important to resurrect the economy, than to perpetuate the continuing lockdown.
People have had a savage, savage few months. Loved ones have died and livelihoods lost; and this before we even consider the secondary issues such, as the sea-change in social interaction with one another. One can (and should) point many fingers at this government's handling of the crisis, spearheaded by the arrogance of Cummings (that man is set up for an almighty fall; he thinks he's far cleverer than he is... I digress)….
People are desperate to return to normality, or something approaching this. It was suggested that the BLM protests would result in a spike - they didn't. It was suggested that the crowded Bournemouth beaches would result in a spike - they didn't. Fundamentally, and to the chagrin of the media, a significant majority of people have adapted to the new way of life with courtesy and respect for one another.
So what am I trying to say here? This leads onto the second part of your paragraph above - regardless of activity, I genuinely do think that most people are acting sensibly. Pretty much everyone masks up in shops, pretty much everyone is hand sanitising several times a day, pretty much everyone is respecting other's personal space - yep, you've got Toby Young's crowd who view the failure to wear a mask as some kind of badge of honour, but, to be frank, that's in keeping with the calibre of these people - inherently selfish....
My view now, however, is that we need to start focussing upon an economic path out of this mess. Get out, support the hospitality sector, support the travel sector, support the aviation sector. (The High St retail sector, sadly, may be finished; COVID being the final nail in that particular coffin)…
However, it's a fully subjective view. Had I experienced what you have. I daresay my view would be different.
Fully happy to have this post analysed and pulled apart, if required.... |  | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
