| #LetFansIn 10:50 - Oct 6 with 6207 views | Lanky |
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/552036
This petition set up by Dorking Wanderers last night seems to have got a bit of attention on Twitter. I think that football games are to be shown in Vue cinemas yet (very reduced capacity etc.) pilots have not restarted at outdoor stadiums says it all, really.
May be of interest to some! |  | | |  |
| #LetFansIn on 12:21 - Oct 6 with 1576 views | BlueBadger |
| #LetFansIn on 12:15 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
Can you also point out where I have suggested or even implied it would be safe to congregate in concourses, tunnels, buses, trains? |
'We're all at risk if the infection rate goes through the roof, whether you set foot outside your door or not' does rather imply a 'let's just let it rip' approach. |  |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:23 - Oct 6 with 1573 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 12:15 - Oct 6 by Swailsey |
I have to admit that I'm also confused by your standpoint!
Except for the 'sort it out Lambo'. I'm fully on board with that. |
Thanks for a sensible response, I'll attempt to summarise.
I understand that covid is bad news, we can't congregate in large groups indoors and that the issue with live sport is not so much what happens when a limited number of fans are safely in their seats, but what they do between leaving their front door and getting to those seats. Both in terms of how we travel to the ground and what we do inside stadiums (communal areas etc).
I'm suggesting that clubs should be allowed to formulate their own solutions to these problems, rather than a blanket ban above step 3 of non-league. These solutions could be judged on merit. As others have posted, large numbers of people will soon be allowed to attend events at the O2 and Albert Hall, so solutions to these problems surely must exist? |  |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:27 - Oct 6 with 1569 views | SpruceMoose |
| #LetFansIn on 12:10 - Oct 6 by bluelagos |
Don't pretend to understand all the issues raised on this thread, but I do know that if it is deemed safe for me to attend a cinema then it seems inconsistent to not allow limited attendance at the football.
Also European matches are now allowing fans in, Brugges had 9k in attendance at the weekend. |
What if both are actually unsafe though? Other places have deemed cinemas unsafe after all. Can the UK government really be trusted to know its arse from its elbow? [Post edited 6 Oct 2020 12:27]
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| #LetFansIn on 12:29 - Oct 6 with 1563 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 12:21 - Oct 6 by BlueBadger |
'We're all at risk if the infection rate goes through the roof, whether you set foot outside your door or not' does rather imply a 'let's just let it rip' approach. |
Now I understand, you've misconstrued my position. Sitters implied chrisswailes' 75 year old Dad could just not attend games and he'd be safe, I was pointing out that if resumption of large scale sporting events drove the infection rate up, he'd be put at increased risk regardless of whether he himself went to the football.
Again, I'm not arguing for the binary opposite of the current status quo. I'm suggesting that clubs should be allowed to explore ways for limited numbers of fans to attend games safely. | |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:33 - Oct 6 with 1556 views | StokieBlue |
| #LetFansIn on 12:06 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
It is a sweeping judgement, you've repeatedly suggested that anyone who says perhaps there is some way we can have limited numbers of fans back in football stadiums safely is some kind of imbecile who doesn't understand the implications and will do/say anything just to watch football again.
I've neglected to counter every point you have made because I have little interest in a binary argument where either all live football is banned because of covid, or we let 30k back into Portman Road and to hell with the consequences.
I'm trying to suggest that just maybe there is some middle ground to be had. I also don't really believe you fail to grasp the difference between the income from streaming and the income from fans attending games. |
"It is a sweeping judgement, you've repeatedly suggested that anyone who says perhaps there is some way we can have limited numbers of fans back in football stadiums safely is some kind of imbecile who doesn't understand the implications and will do/say anything just to watch football again."
I've not said that. I've said that there seems to be a blind eye turned to some of the risks by some people because they want to watch football. I stand by that because it's clearly true.
"I've neglected to counter every point you have made because I have little interest in a binary argument where either all live football is banned because of covid, or we let 30k back into Portman Road and to hell with the consequences."
I've not said that either. Where have I mentioned full crowds? I think that even a few thousand in a ground in a city centre is going to be very difficult with fans having to take public transport. I've also said it's not particularly fair to push forward with something not applicable to all clubs in the league. Would you still feel the same if other clubs could have it and not Ipswich? What about the clubs who can't have fans - are they at a disadvantage with no supporters in the ground?
Lots of points have been raised and you've chosen not to address them.
"I'm trying to suggest that just maybe there is some middle ground to be had. I also don't really believe you fail to grasp the difference between the income from streaming and the income from fans attending games."
There isn't going to be many fans allowed to attend either way, given the costs to the club I am not sure how much money will be made allowing a few fans into the grounds.
What is the middle ground? You've not said what you think would be acceptable?
I do think some clubs could have some fans back but it would have to be a very small number and it would create an imbalance within divisions for clubs that can't have fans both in income and in perceived performance boost from having their supporters there. Is it really worth the increase in infection vectors given those caveats?
SB [Post edited 6 Oct 2020 12:36]
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| #LetFansIn on 12:33 - Oct 6 with 1564 views | Reuser_is_God |
There are people on here genuinely arguing against this.
Wow. |  |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:36 - Oct 6 with 1555 views | SpruceMoose |
| #LetFansIn on 12:33 - Oct 6 by Reuser_is_God |
There are people on here genuinely arguing against this.
Wow. |
Who would have thought some people might want to suggest we prioritise the health and well being of others before we all pile back into a football ground. | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:37 - Oct 6 with 1544 views | StokieBlue |
| #LetFansIn on 12:09 - Oct 6 by pointofblue |
I suppose my one question is how can the O2 be opening up to 4700 concert goers in December and the Royal Albert Hall be holding concerts in front of a live audience of 2500 a time over Christmas yet football grounds are an issue? |
I agree, seems madness for those places to be opening up as well.
SB | |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:43 - Oct 6 with 1533 views | SpruceMoose |
| #LetFansIn on 12:37 - Oct 6 by StokieBlue |
I agree, seems madness for those places to be opening up as well.
SB |
Similarly why would a cinema in New York be considered far too dangerous to open, but a cinema in London is considered perfectly safe? | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:43 - Oct 6 with 1534 views | J2BLUE |
I really want fans to return but i'm not signing this. It's too vague and dismissive IMO. They should have come up with a sensible plan and put it in as part of the petition. It can be done with sensible and creative measures. That petition isn't going to win over the government. Present a solution not a problem.
Possible solutions:
> A low percentage of capacity. 10-20%
> Masks compulsory at all times including when in your seat
> Must travel by car in your bubble. For clubs without a car park do a deal with a local business/local businesses if possible to use their facilities when possible. This would generate income for the business and provide a solution.
> Take your own drinks/food - within reason, bottle of drink etc. Don't turn up with a massive Indian takeaway.
> Hand gel compulsory. It's plentiful these days. The club could easily get hold of thousands of small bottles and give them out on entry to the stadium. A small cost but outweighed by fans in attendance.
> Staggered arrival times up to one hour before kick off. 3pm kick off. 2-2.10 1000 fans 2.20-2.30 1000 fans 2.40-2.50 1000 fans.
> Use the unique aspects of stadiums. I'm sure we could use the practice pitch behind Co-op stand to our advantage with temporary toilets/pop up merchandise shops etc. Stadiums like Reading's have plenty of space around them to keep people separated until they've entered the stadium. |  |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:45 - Oct 6 with 1530 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 12:36 - Oct 6 by SpruceMoose |
Who would have thought some people might want to suggest we prioritise the health and well being of others before we all pile back into a football ground. |
See there we go again, binary. Why can't we prioritise the health and well being of all while having *some* fans back in football grounds? | |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:45 - Oct 6 with 1528 views | Sarge |
I wish they’d just admit it a not a safety decision and is down to politics/face saving. How else can anybody reconcile the decision to allow 5000 people to attend a concert at the O2, allow the Royal Albert Hall to host Christmas concerts and allow/encourage cinemas to stream football matches indoors but not let them go to the outdoor stadium to watch it. |  | | |
| #LetFansIn on 12:48 - Oct 6 with 1517 views | SpruceMoose |
| #LetFansIn on 12:45 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
See there we go again, binary. Why can't we prioritise the health and well being of all while having *some* fans back in football grounds? |
I was responding to the completely binary point of someone getting the arseache that some people might have concerns about this and might want to discuss it.
So I'm not sure why you're singling me out when the post I was replying to was a better example of what you're telling me off for? [Post edited 6 Oct 2020 12:48]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| #LetFansIn on 12:48 - Oct 6 with 1518 views | BlueBadger |
| #LetFansIn on 12:29 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
Now I understand, you've misconstrued my position. Sitters implied chrisswailes' 75 year old Dad could just not attend games and he'd be safe, I was pointing out that if resumption of large scale sporting events drove the infection rate up, he'd be put at increased risk regardless of whether he himself went to the football.
Again, I'm not arguing for the binary opposite of the current status quo. I'm suggesting that clubs should be allowed to explore ways for limited numbers of fans to attend games safely. |
Sitters' 75 year old dad would not be safe if Sitters is regularly turning up to potential hotspots of cross infection and then going round to visit said setugenarian parent. [Post edited 6 Oct 2020 16:15]
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| #LetFansIn on 12:56 - Oct 6 with 1500 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 12:33 - Oct 6 by StokieBlue |
"It is a sweeping judgement, you've repeatedly suggested that anyone who says perhaps there is some way we can have limited numbers of fans back in football stadiums safely is some kind of imbecile who doesn't understand the implications and will do/say anything just to watch football again."
I've not said that. I've said that there seems to be a blind eye turned to some of the risks by some people because they want to watch football. I stand by that because it's clearly true.
"I've neglected to counter every point you have made because I have little interest in a binary argument where either all live football is banned because of covid, or we let 30k back into Portman Road and to hell with the consequences."
I've not said that either. Where have I mentioned full crowds? I think that even a few thousand in a ground in a city centre is going to be very difficult with fans having to take public transport. I've also said it's not particularly fair to push forward with something not applicable to all clubs in the league. Would you still feel the same if other clubs could have it and not Ipswich? What about the clubs who can't have fans - are they at a disadvantage with no supporters in the ground?
Lots of points have been raised and you've chosen not to address them.
"I'm trying to suggest that just maybe there is some middle ground to be had. I also don't really believe you fail to grasp the difference between the income from streaming and the income from fans attending games."
There isn't going to be many fans allowed to attend either way, given the costs to the club I am not sure how much money will be made allowing a few fans into the grounds.
What is the middle ground? You've not said what you think would be acceptable?
I do think some clubs could have some fans back but it would have to be a very small number and it would create an imbalance within divisions for clubs that can't have fans both in income and in perceived performance boost from having their supporters there. Is it really worth the increase in infection vectors given those caveats?
SB [Post edited 6 Oct 2020 12:36]
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"Because people want to watch football and thus they are able to internally reconcile any position to make it seem acceptable."
"Once again it seems to boil down to "but I want to watch football"."
It's these statements that gave me the distinct impression you were rather dismissive of anyone suggesting there may be a way for some fans to attend games safely. I think that's very unfair. I'm not turning a blind eye to the risks, I'm suggesting there are ways to mitigate these risks and balance them against the survival of our football clubs. The same way there are ways to mitigate the risks in cinemas, pubs, restaurants, music venues, educational establishments, places of work etc.
I completely accept your point about the imbalance, in terms of the financial imbalance, you'd hope that the premier league would part with a fair sum which the EFL could then distribute in a proportionate way depending on which clubs are able to have fans back in. The incentive then would be supporter satisfaction, any boost form having fans present etc. | |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:05 - Oct 6 with 1491 views | StokieBlue |
| #LetFansIn on 12:56 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
"Because people want to watch football and thus they are able to internally reconcile any position to make it seem acceptable."
"Once again it seems to boil down to "but I want to watch football"."
It's these statements that gave me the distinct impression you were rather dismissive of anyone suggesting there may be a way for some fans to attend games safely. I think that's very unfair. I'm not turning a blind eye to the risks, I'm suggesting there are ways to mitigate these risks and balance them against the survival of our football clubs. The same way there are ways to mitigate the risks in cinemas, pubs, restaurants, music venues, educational establishments, places of work etc.
I completely accept your point about the imbalance, in terms of the financial imbalance, you'd hope that the premier league would part with a fair sum which the EFL could then distribute in a proportionate way depending on which clubs are able to have fans back in. The incentive then would be supporter satisfaction, any boost form having fans present etc. |
Fair enough.
On your last point, isn't the form boost from having fans at some grounds and not others another imbalance?
I'd be interested to see the absolute financial benefit of having 3000 fans in a ground with all the associated costs versus just the streaming income.
SB | |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:06 - Oct 6 with 1490 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 12:48 - Oct 6 by SpruceMoose |
I was responding to the completely binary point of someone getting the arseache that some people might have concerns about this and might want to discuss it.
So I'm not sure why you're singling me out when the post I was replying to was a better example of what you're telling me off for? [Post edited 6 Oct 2020 12:48]
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No telling off intended, apologies if you felt singled out, I was referring to both the previous post and your reply. Just frustrated that the discussion keeps steering that way and wish there could be a balanced debate on what is quite an important point if you're a football fan who likes attending matches. | |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:06 - Oct 6 with 1491 views | factual_blue |
| #LetFansIn on 12:45 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
See there we go again, binary. Why can't we prioritise the health and well being of all while having *some* fans back in football grounds? |
'Some' fans. So long as you're one of them, eh? |  |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:10 - Oct 6 with 1483 views | SpruceMoose |
| #LetFansIn on 13:06 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
No telling off intended, apologies if you felt singled out, I was referring to both the previous post and your reply. Just frustrated that the discussion keeps steering that way and wish there could be a balanced debate on what is quite an important point if you're a football fan who likes attending matches. |
No worries, I think we've both got the wrong end of the stick as I don't disagree that shutting down the debate on either side gets us anywhere. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:16 - Oct 6 with 1478 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 13:05 - Oct 6 by StokieBlue |
Fair enough.
On your last point, isn't the form boost from having fans at some grounds and not others another imbalance?
I'd be interested to see the absolute financial benefit of having 3000 fans in a ground with all the associated costs versus just the streaming income.
SB |
I think the anecdotal feedback from those who attended trial games was limited numbers of fans observing social distancing means almost no benefit in terms of getting behind the team. You're right that it's an important consideration though.
It's a fair argument that 10% attendance won't necessarily have a significant financial benefit when associated costs are factored in, but the knock on effect might be that as the infection rate decreases, measures are already in place for numbers attending to also increase. I do think clubs could explore ways to sell food, drink and merchandise to fans without opening concourses and shops though and this might mean some positive changes to the matchday experience even when (if) the world returns to normal. | |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:19 - Oct 6 with 1473 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 13:06 - Oct 6 by factual_blue |
'Some' fans. So long as you're one of them, eh? |
Dang, you've got me all figured out, well done. | |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:22 - Oct 6 with 1468 views | StokieBlue |
| #LetFansIn on 13:16 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
I think the anecdotal feedback from those who attended trial games was limited numbers of fans observing social distancing means almost no benefit in terms of getting behind the team. You're right that it's an important consideration though.
It's a fair argument that 10% attendance won't necessarily have a significant financial benefit when associated costs are factored in, but the knock on effect might be that as the infection rate decreases, measures are already in place for numbers attending to also increase. I do think clubs could explore ways to sell food, drink and merchandise to fans without opening concourses and shops though and this might mean some positive changes to the matchday experience even when (if) the world returns to normal. |
That is a fair point with regards to possibly allowing the ramping up to more fans if some are already attending.
I feel that if there isn't a significant financial benefit then there has to be some serious though about whether it's worth opening up another possible vector of viral spread for what is no immediate financial benefit.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:29 - Oct 6 with 1453 views | SouperJim |
| #LetFansIn on 13:22 - Oct 6 by StokieBlue |
That is a fair point with regards to possibly allowing the ramping up to more fans if some are already attending.
I feel that if there isn't a significant financial benefit then there has to be some serious though about whether it's worth opening up another possible vector of viral spread for what is no immediate financial benefit.
SB |
What about the health benefits of letting people continue to pursue a past-time which they are so passionate about? There is a school of thought that the negative impact on the overall mental health of the population may, over time, exceed the negative impact on our physical health. If you can actually compare the two... | |
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| #LetFansIn on 13:44 - Oct 6 with 1436 views | StokieBlue |
| #LetFansIn on 13:29 - Oct 6 by SouperJim |
What about the health benefits of letting people continue to pursue a past-time which they are so passionate about? There is a school of thought that the negative impact on the overall mental health of the population may, over time, exceed the negative impact on our physical health. If you can actually compare the two... |
But the vast majority of people aren't going to be able to watch live football at your 10% level. In fact having a random draw which they might not win might affect them even more knowing that others are getting to watch it and they aren't.
Certainly agree that there are mental health aspects to consider.
Just seems to me that whilst the R value and cases are clearly increasing it would be a bad time to start football. Once/if it stabilises then that would be the time to address this just as it was appropriate to run the trials when the R and number of cases were much lower.
I just feel that some people still think we are in the same position as we were when trials were undertaken and for the majority of the country that simple isn't the case unfortunately.
SB | |
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| #LetFansIn on 15:22 - Oct 6 with 1412 views | ellerblue |
I live in Düsseldorf and go to watch Fortuna , the first home game they allowed 20% of capacity IE 10800 spectators the actual attendance on matchday was less than 6000, speakng to other fans the reasons for not going were location of stadium which requires the majority to travel by u bahn, which peple were not prepared to do, congregation of fans in Aldstat bars prior to match and also the social distancing within the stadium. I watched it on tv, they had installed seating in the standing section to help with distancing, at kick off social distancing appeared to be working but as the match progressed you could see large pockets of fans forming and social distancing disappearing the majority of fans i have spoken to do not want to take the chance of contracting and passing on this terrible virus and are prepared to wait till better times arrive.How much longer attendance at football in Germany is allowed i do not know but with the rise at the moment of cases here i think it might not last for much longer. | |
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