| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? 11:07 - Nov 18 with 9836 views | Steve_M |
Anyway, right decision from Starmer. Labour needs to demonstrate that it's complaints procedures are robust and yesterday failed at that regardless of the verdict reached. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:25 - Nov 18 with 1314 views | jimmyvet |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:28 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Btw for those who still have their heads in the sand over the rock Corbyn lifted when he became leader, read this full thread showing the replies to a Labour Party post about Starmer visiting a Synagogue earlier in the week.
The absolute state of the the replies in an official Labour Party forum.
These are Corbyn’s people. This is his legacy. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 17:53]
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That is absolutely disgusting these people should be arrested and charged with hate crimes ... it made me nearly weep reading it, the hate shown is astonishing ... and to think certain people on here and they know who are, try and defend this vile atrocious racism as exaggerated. |  | | |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:27 - Nov 18 with 1308 views | IpswichBoyBlue |
Why was the one yesterday taken down? |  | | |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:32 - Nov 18 with 1299 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:18 - Nov 18 by tractordownsouth |
Why the SNP? We'd be saddled with Tory governments forever if Scotland went independent |
Better for Scotland - and after seeing the same mistakes being made and excused for the last 4 decades or so perhaps the one movement that can get the UK (politicians, the media and a fair proportion of the electorate) to pull its head out of its arse.
I only supported Labour between 2015 and mid-2020 when it started to show it was serious about the issues affecting the country and its future. The return to Blairism leaves me utterly cold so time to move on. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:41 - Nov 18 with 1281 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:17 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
I’m not the one in a muddle here, for someone who is seemingly such a truth seeker and anti smear, you are just smearing Starmer about this.
Corbyn was the leader of the party for the period where it was found to have committed unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination by the EHRC
Corbyn was the one who doesn’t take responsibility for it, releasing a statement 35 minutes after it comes out with a pathetic “sorry, but......” tone
Corbyn is the one who still can’t apologise properly for that statement
But it’s Starmer who is the bad guy, despite him neither suspending nor readmitting him to the party.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:20]
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Yes. Good idea to move on from that area.
But I’ve addressed the Corbyn stuff in my answers to Herbivore. No reason to do it here again. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:46 - Nov 18 with 1268 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:58 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
No. There was a problem with antisemitism (incidences exist and should not be tolerated). There was also an exaggeration of the problem for political and factional gain as any analysis of the numbers shows.
Starmer could have taken the route of contrition towards the Jewish community and he largely did. But the dig about exaggeration was totally unnecessary and right out of the playbook of the chief smearers.
If it was by design, it’s a problem. If it’s incompetence and being tone-deaf that’s also a problem. But he’s shot himself in the foot with it if he thinks this was about moving on.
I want to see a proper and serious report from the Forde Inquiry and an end to sweeping this stuff under the rug when political goals have been achieved. |
So you're annoyed at Starmer pointing out that it's problematic to pretend that the issue is that antisemitism was exaggerated but you're not annoyed at Corbyn for suggesting that the issue was exaggerated? Have you paid any attention to how toxic this issue has been for Labour in recent years? |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:47 - Nov 18 with 1253 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:24 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Talking about the Rothschilds and holding Jews accountable for Israel’s actions is antisemitic and I’d have said so if I’d seen them.
Criticising Zionism and apartheid Israel? Not so much.
It’s apparent we’re going to have a Labour Party and leader that will toe a very Israel-friendly line and one who will whitewash the smear campaign. I understand the general anger and distrust towards him on these matters. Not when it crosses over into antisemitism though or is even about antisemitism. No excuse for that, we can both agree. |
"if i'd have seen them"
I linked the posts. You replied to the thread. you chose not to see them.
"Criticising Zionism and apartheid Israel? Not so much".
OK. Let's put aside the hyperbole, as you know full well that Zionism is the belief in the Jewish people having the right to self determination in their historical homeland, and do some actual research on Apartheid South Africa and then modern day Israel and understand the difference.
But you are quite correct. There is absolutely nothing wrong in criticising the government or the state of Israel and it's treatment if the Palestinian people. I've done it. You've done it. Many people are quite capable of doing it without resorting to antiSemitic rhetoric.
But this criticism is part of a barrage of abuse aimed at a British politician visiting a place of worship for British Jews.
If Starmer visiting a place of worship for British Muslims and received a barrage of abuse from right wing trolls about cosying up to Islamic terrorists, it would quite rightly be condemned a racist.
British Jews are no more responsible for the actions of the state of Israel than British Muslims are in any way responsible for the actions of Islamic terror groups.
You know this yet you choose to ignore it. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:49]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:59 - Nov 18 with 1239 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:46 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
So you're annoyed at Starmer pointing out that it's problematic to pretend that the issue is that antisemitism was exaggerated but you're not annoyed at Corbyn for suggesting that the issue was exaggerated? Have you paid any attention to how toxic this issue has been for Labour in recent years? |
At the risk of making this sound like a playground incident, Starmer started it.
He seems utterly blinkered on this issue. Ironically enough that was exactly the criticism made of Corbyn too.
I think it was clumsy, unfair and arguably political to put that in his statement. And silly to double down with a suspension. But it also shows he’s not a very shrewd operator or is getting crap advice because the whole incident and his management of it has weakened his control of the party and made him look suspect as a leader.
I wonder if he’s going to survive until 2024 at this rate. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:01 - Nov 18 with 1233 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:59 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
At the risk of making this sound like a playground incident, Starmer started it.
He seems utterly blinkered on this issue. Ironically enough that was exactly the criticism made of Corbyn too.
I think it was clumsy, unfair and arguably political to put that in his statement. And silly to double down with a suspension. But it also shows he’s not a very shrewd operator or is getting crap advice because the whole incident and his management of it has weakened his control of the party and made him look suspect as a leader.
I wonder if he’s going to survive until 2024 at this rate. |
That's a hot take. I don't think there's much more I can say than that. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:04 - Nov 18 with 1230 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:59 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
At the risk of making this sound like a playground incident, Starmer started it.
He seems utterly blinkered on this issue. Ironically enough that was exactly the criticism made of Corbyn too.
I think it was clumsy, unfair and arguably political to put that in his statement. And silly to double down with a suspension. But it also shows he’s not a very shrewd operator or is getting crap advice because the whole incident and his management of it has weakened his control of the party and made him look suspect as a leader.
I wonder if he’s going to survive until 2024 at this rate. |
Pathetic - Starmer started it.. nothing to do with Corbyn refusing to do the right thing over and over again at all then
Starmer is trying to end it and move on [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 19:07]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:06 - Nov 18 with 1225 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:47 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
"if i'd have seen them"
I linked the posts. You replied to the thread. you chose not to see them.
"Criticising Zionism and apartheid Israel? Not so much".
OK. Let's put aside the hyperbole, as you know full well that Zionism is the belief in the Jewish people having the right to self determination in their historical homeland, and do some actual research on Apartheid South Africa and then modern day Israel and understand the difference.
But you are quite correct. There is absolutely nothing wrong in criticising the government or the state of Israel and it's treatment if the Palestinian people. I've done it. You've done it. Many people are quite capable of doing it without resorting to antiSemitic rhetoric.
But this criticism is part of a barrage of abuse aimed at a British politician visiting a place of worship for British Jews.
If Starmer visiting a place of worship for British Muslims and received a barrage of abuse from right wing trolls about cosying up to Islamic terrorists, it would quite rightly be condemned a racist.
British Jews are no more responsible for the actions of the state of Israel than British Muslims are in any way responsible for the actions of Islamic terror groups.
You know this yet you choose to ignore it. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:49]
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I don’t choose to ignore anything. I didn’t see those posts in the screenshots.
Criticizing a politician for his politics and political associations is fair enough. I don’t think that should always be linked to visiting a synagogue - but I can see why it prompts associations with Israel and Zionism which are highly current. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:11 - Nov 18 with 1201 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:04 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
Pathetic - Starmer started it.. nothing to do with Corbyn refusing to do the right thing over and over again at all then
Starmer is trying to end it and move on [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 19:07]
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What are you going on about now? | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:13 - Nov 18 with 1194 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:01 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
That's a hot take. I don't think there's much more I can say than that. |
About Starmer not lasting? Probably - but wouldn’t surprise me. His position has got weaker the longer he’s been leader. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:35 - Nov 18 with 1159 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:11 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
What are you going on about now? |
Your stupid attempts to pin this on Starmer when it is Corbyn at fault every step of the wat | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:43 - Nov 18 with 1148 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:35 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
Your stupid attempts to pin this on Starmer when it is Corbyn at fault every step of the wat |
Starmer’s responsibility as leader, remember.
But more seriously, I’ve explained why Starmer was stupid and provocative to parrot a line from the exact same smear campaign he’s trying to whitewash. If you’d actually been following this with any real depth you’d see that.
Then Starmer really compounded the error by suspending Corbyn for an entirely truthful if ill-timed response to it.
You don’t agree but then again you’d never admit to the smear campaign either so it doesn’t matter to me what you think. | |
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| It will be nice to have.... on 19:51 - Nov 18 with 1132 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| It will be nice to have.... on 18:08 - Nov 18 by giant_stow |
You've had an alternative narative offered up over the last few years, but the electorate rejected it. |
You forgot the whole undermining PLP thing, antagonistic media and the massive exageration of the extent of antisemitism again though and also how it all becomes focussed on personality (which isn't great when it's Corbyn)
The electorate was lost before Brexit...! |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:55 - Nov 18 with 1130 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:43 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Starmer’s responsibility as leader, remember.
But more seriously, I’ve explained why Starmer was stupid and provocative to parrot a line from the exact same smear campaign he’s trying to whitewash. If you’d actually been following this with any real depth you’d see that.
Then Starmer really compounded the error by suspending Corbyn for an entirely truthful if ill-timed response to it.
You don’t agree but then again you’d never admit to the smear campaign either so it doesn’t matter to me what you think. |
So Corbyn’s response was truthful, but yet he has since then rowed back on it to basically say he was wrong to say it and it wasn’t what he meant, and in fact what Starmer said was correct. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:55 - Nov 18 with 1130 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:15 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
What ones?
The Rothschilds tropes.
The holding British Jews as a collective responsible for the actions of Israel.
Kier Starmer visits a place of worship for a British Jews and it elicits responses such a “You evil apartheid supporting Zionist . The murderous sniping innocent women and children Netanyahu Israeli lobby”
“He is doing his paymasters bidding”
There are pages on this stuff on the thread I linked.
You're getting into real Pete Willsman territory. Do you honestly not see this as an issue? Have you really sunk that far in the sewer?
You get pissed off when Badger, Lowhouse or I have accused you of excusing antisemitism. Well you’re doing it right here. Please stop. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 20:11]
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Did you really start today by criticising my ability to use the English language! | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 20:22 - Nov 18 with 1100 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:13 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
About Starmer not lasting? Probably - but wouldn’t surprise me. His position has got weaker the longer he’s been leader. |
No, all of it is a hot take. Perhaps the way you're reading it is mirrored by a few other Corbynites, but that's about it. | |
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| It will be nice to have.... on 20:24 - Nov 18 with 1095 views | m14_blue |
| It will be nice to have.... on 17:50 - Nov 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This, this and this again....all these pretend Lefty types on here bemoaning how the working class vote has been usurped by the right need to ask where a genuine alternative narrative has been since New Labour arrived....you reap what you sow. And now they all seem to want to entrench the situation. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:04]
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Hold on, the collapse of the red wall was very little to do with New Labour and very much to do with Corbyn and Corbynism.
If you seriously think that the ‘working class vote’ was usurped because Labour wasn’t far enough to the left then you are hopelessly out of touch with how people are actually feeling, at least up here. Now there are many reasons for that, some of which weren’t Corbyn’s fault, but to try and blame Tony Blair for the 2019 election defeat is rewriting history to a new level.
I don’t get involved in the anti semitism stuff because frankly I don’t know enough about it but Corbyn was totally unrelatable and unattractive to the average man in the street up here even without it.
It’s quite possible to believe in many of his policies whilst also thinking he was just a sh1t leader and not the right person to take those policies forward. | | | |
| It will be nice to have.... on 21:51 - Nov 18 with 1041 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| It will be nice to have.... on 20:24 - Nov 18 by m14_blue |
Hold on, the collapse of the red wall was very little to do with New Labour and very much to do with Corbyn and Corbynism.
If you seriously think that the ‘working class vote’ was usurped because Labour wasn’t far enough to the left then you are hopelessly out of touch with how people are actually feeling, at least up here. Now there are many reasons for that, some of which weren’t Corbyn’s fault, but to try and blame Tony Blair for the 2019 election defeat is rewriting history to a new level.
I don’t get involved in the anti semitism stuff because frankly I don’t know enough about it but Corbyn was totally unrelatable and unattractive to the average man in the street up here even without it.
It’s quite possible to believe in many of his policies whilst also thinking he was just a sh1t leader and not the right person to take those policies forward. |
The (northern) working class have been taken forgranted and, policy wise, ignored for decades and then along came flag waving, lazy politics, easily swallowed Nige offering fields of wheat. That was all to do with New Labour...remember that woman who accosted Brown?
Remember the money tree stuff!.
I have stated many times that I have no truck with the statist left nor Corbyn as a personality so no problem with your final paragraph however I am long enough in the tooth to know that anybody offering a genuine alternative will be slaughtered one way or another by the powers that be.
Edit...Brexit brought down the red wall not Corbyn. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 21:53]
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| It will be nice to have.... on 21:55 - Nov 18 with 1027 views | GlasgowBlue |
| It will be nice to have.... on 21:51 - Nov 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The (northern) working class have been taken forgranted and, policy wise, ignored for decades and then along came flag waving, lazy politics, easily swallowed Nige offering fields of wheat. That was all to do with New Labour...remember that woman who accosted Brown?
Remember the money tree stuff!.
I have stated many times that I have no truck with the statist left nor Corbyn as a personality so no problem with your final paragraph however I am long enough in the tooth to know that anybody offering a genuine alternative will be slaughtered one way or another by the powers that be.
Edit...Brexit brought down the red wall not Corbyn. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 21:53]
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But do you still want proof that Jews are not over represented in the media, politics and world banking institutions? | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 22:38 - Nov 18 with 983 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 19:55 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
So Corbyn’s response was truthful, but yet he has since then rowed back on it to basically say he was wrong to say it and it wasn’t what he meant, and in fact what Starmer said was correct. |
You need to re-read what he wrote. He didn’t row back on the statement that reports of antisemitism were exaggerated or overstated, he said he didn’t mean to suggest that the concerns of the Jewish community were exaggerated or overstated.
Which is fair enough if some might have felt that he was minimising antisemitism itself or dismissing people’s concerns. It didn’t read like that the first time anyway but that’s the way a few media outlets chose to interpret it. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 22:43 - Nov 18 with 978 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 20:22 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
No, all of it is a hot take. Perhaps the way you're reading it is mirrored by a few other Corbynites, but that's about it. |
Fair enough. I can’t read it any other way than an attempt to whitewash and move on.
If by now people can’t accept there was also a smear campaign and this was fueled by political/factional animosity, then they never will. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 22:49 - Nov 18 with 970 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 22:43 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Fair enough. I can’t read it any other way than an attempt to whitewash and move on.
If by now people can’t accept there was also a smear campaign and this was fueled by political/factional animosity, then they never will. |
But banging on about a smear campaign when they were found to have acted unlawfully by the EHRC seems a rather odd way to go. Expecting that the perceived smear campaign rather than the actual antisemitism should be Starmer or the party's focus is even more bizarre. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 22:58 - Nov 18 with 965 views | Ryorry |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:17 - Nov 18 by SpruceMoose |
Francois doesn't get anywhere the level of abuse Abbott does. He doesn't have a whole section of his Wikipedia account devoted to it. So I repeat, the level of abuse Abbott receives is not in line with the level of her job performance or the level of performance we see from other MPs.
Rather than beating about the bush I'll just say it. She gets extra attention, extra abuse, unwarranted comments about her appearance and judged on a different standard than her peers by the press and other political commentators etc. because she's outspoken and Black. |
Agree with a 'but' - tbf, also didn't know her figures when she really needed to. |  |
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