| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? 11:07 - Nov 18 with 9962 views | Steve_M |
Anyway, right decision from Starmer. Labour needs to demonstrate that it's complaints procedures are robust and yesterday failed at that regardless of the verdict reached. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:33 - Nov 18 with 1580 views | Beckets |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:31 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe, maybe not. It was still awful and anti-democratic behaviour that the party seems unwilling to address even with the Forde Inquiry more concerned with how the information was leaked.
The Labour right then amped up the attacks after 2017, showing themselves who they exactly were and not at all interested in getting the Tories out but protecting their own narrow interests and influence.
If these are the same people now at the helm, Labour deserve to implode and a proper opposition party to emerge in its place. |
For my information name these people...give examples |  | | |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:34 - Nov 18 with 1577 views | StokieBlue |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:31 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe, maybe not. It was still awful and anti-democratic behaviour that the party seems unwilling to address even with the Forde Inquiry more concerned with how the information was leaked.
The Labour right then amped up the attacks after 2017, showing themselves who they exactly were and not at all interested in getting the Tories out but protecting their own narrow interests and influence.
If these are the same people now at the helm, Labour deserve to implode and a proper opposition party to emerge in its place. |
By "proper opposition party" you actually just mean one that agrees entirely with your views.
Well at least that's how nearly all posts I read from you on Labour read to me.
SB |  | | |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:36 - Nov 18 with 1568 views | giant_stow |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:34 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
By "proper opposition party" you actually just mean one that agrees entirely with your views.
Well at least that's how nearly all posts I read from you on Labour read to me.
SB |
And one which will never get into power, so only proper in the sense of idiological purity, so that's its supporters can can feel great about themselves, while tory govenments refuse to feed skint uncared for children. |  |
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| It will be nice to have.... on 12:39 - Nov 18 with 1554 views | Darth_Koont |
| It will be nice to have.... on 12:18 - Nov 18 by Bloots |
....a more centrist option in mainstream politics. |
Yeah, the centre quietly opposing or working with the right will certainly make a change to the status quo ...
And that’s not at all accelerated the breakup of the UK and led to Brexit, never mind increased the systemic and regional inequalities in the country. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:42 - Nov 18 with 1540 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:16 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
But that was primed by Starmer’s prepared response that was shown to Corbyn. That specific issue about not addresssing the exaggerated political or factional nature of a lot of this was put in by Starmer as he wanted to sweep that all under the carpet.
Seems like cack-handed authoritarianism or he and the Labour right ghouls wanted the fight.
There was an opportunity to address the EHRC report soberly, respectfully and learn from it re: recommendations. The smear campaign after all is a separate issue. But they couldn’t resist trying to create political capital out of it. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 12:17]
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So how exactly were Corbyn's words helpful in any of that, even if we take your post as gospel? |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:43 - Nov 18 with 1537 views | StokieBlue |
Just reading around this, why was JC jumped to the front of the queue to have his case heard using the old system and panel rather than waiting for the independent process which is being setup like most other cases?
Is it because the was feelings he wouldn't get back in using the independent process or was it just people wanted him back so he got moved up to make it happen quicker?
SB [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 12:44]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:45 - Nov 18 with 1531 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:34 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
By "proper opposition party" you actually just mean one that agrees entirely with your views.
Well at least that's how nearly all posts I read from you on Labour read to me.
SB |
I could turn that around and say you only want politics that keeps things roughly the way they are as you’re most comfortable with that.
Proper opposition would be addressing the most pressing problems and pushing solutions. That’s how you represent people who can’t change these things themselves.
Not trying to triangulate on values or whatever branding nonsense they think is their job.
And that requires an objective and fact-based discussion. Because you’d even consider change that was motivated by evidence rather than ideology or cosmetics, wouldn’t you? | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:51 - Nov 18 with 1508 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:42 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
So how exactly were Corbyn's words helpful in any of that, even if we take your post as gospel? |
Take Starmer’s prepared statement as gospel. This isn’t an opinion, it’s in there in black and white and also in black and white that it was shown to Corbyn the night before.
No, I don’t think Corbyn’s words were helpful despite being true. The problem was that he knew he was being thrown under the bus and the whole smear campaign swept under the rug. Why did Starmer have that specific point in his letter when it could and should have been about the EHRC report? | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:53 - Nov 18 with 1495 views | StokieBlue |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:45 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
I could turn that around and say you only want politics that keeps things roughly the way they are as you’re most comfortable with that.
Proper opposition would be addressing the most pressing problems and pushing solutions. That’s how you represent people who can’t change these things themselves.
Not trying to triangulate on values or whatever branding nonsense they think is their job.
And that requires an objective and fact-based discussion. Because you’d even consider change that was motivated by evidence rather than ideology or cosmetics, wouldn’t you? |
That's not really turning it around though, being comfortable with the existing parties isn't the massive sin you make it out to be in every thread. That doesn't mean that if people demand another party for their views that I wouldn't be comfortable with that as well. It's a democracy and its not helpful to label partiers improper because they don't agree with you.
"And that requires an objective and fact-based discussion. Because you’d even consider change that was motivated by evidence rather than ideology or cosmetics, wouldn’t you?"
Your views seem driven by ideology just as much as others, it's just a different ideology. Of course using evidence and facts is key but you don't seem to do this yourself when it comes to your ideology - you've stated on many occasions that Labour should be going even further left than JC but there is lots of evidence that shows this won't result in power and thus no policies being implemented. You ignore this evidence though and repeat it every thread.
SB | | | |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:55 - Nov 18 with 1478 views | tractordownsouth |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:31 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe, maybe not. It was still awful and anti-democratic behaviour that the party seems unwilling to address even with the Forde Inquiry more concerned with how the information was leaked.
The Labour right then amped up the attacks after 2017, showing themselves who they exactly were and not at all interested in getting the Tories out but protecting their own narrow interests and influence.
If these are the same people now at the helm, Labour deserve to implode and a proper opposition party to emerge in its place. |
These aren’t the same people though. McNichol isn’t there, and the most vocal anti-Corbyn MPs (Ian Austin, John Woodcock, Chukka Umunna) are no longer in the party either. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:55 - Nov 18 with 1477 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:36 - Nov 18 by giant_stow |
And one which will never get into power, so only proper in the sense of idiological purity, so that's its supporters can can feel great about themselves, while tory govenments refuse to feed skint uncared for children. |
Ridiculous hypocrisy.
You supported and parroted those who were trying to nobble the Labour Party’s chances throughout the past 5 years.
It’s all about poor kids now, though .... | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:59 - Nov 18 with 1461 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:51 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Take Starmer’s prepared statement as gospel. This isn’t an opinion, it’s in there in black and white and also in black and white that it was shown to Corbyn the night before.
No, I don’t think Corbyn’s words were helpful despite being true. The problem was that he knew he was being thrown under the bus and the whole smear campaign swept under the rug. Why did Starmer have that specific point in his letter when it could and should have been about the EHRC report? |
Do you think Corbyn should get a pass then? You say he's being thrown under the bus, should he not be at all accountable for leading a party that was found to have committed unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination by the EHRC? Should he be let off because he seems like a decent sort really? He could have done the decent thing and kept his mouth shut or issued a genuine apology but he chose not to. It's interesting that you put this wholly at Starmer's door, Corbyn is the one who has made this a problem through his continued pig-headedness. That trait is one of the reasons why I generally supported the policies whilst having little time for the man. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:03 - Nov 18 with 1453 views | giant_stow |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:55 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Ridiculous hypocrisy.
You supported and parroted those who were trying to nobble the Labour Party’s chances throughout the past 5 years.
It’s all about poor kids now, though .... |
Your guys had their chance and failed repeatedly in election after referendum after election... repeat. How many times do corbynites need to be told "no" before they listen to the people?
Or is it just about ego and purity?
I think the answer's clear. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:05 - Nov 18 with 1449 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:55 - Nov 18 by tractordownsouth |
These aren’t the same people though. McNichol isn’t there, and the most vocal anti-Corbyn MPs (Ian Austin, John Woodcock, Chukka Umunna) are no longer in the party either. |
But as the Labour leaks show these people ARE the Labour Party of the past decade or more as an organization. A left-wing leader and an increasingly left-wing membership never changed that.
Far too many of them are ghouls that want power and influence which is the only reason they joined the Labour Party and not the LibDems or even Tories in the first place. Representative socialist/social democratic politics isn’t why they’re there.
Until Labour addresses that void at its heart and actually understands unity in terms of the strongest possible representation of people, then it’s screwed. And rightfully so. Performative politics isn’t going to be much of an answer to the real problems facing the UK. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:09 - Nov 18 with 1432 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:03 - Nov 18 by giant_stow |
Your guys had their chance and failed repeatedly in election after referendum after election... repeat. How many times do corbynites need to be told "no" before they listen to the people?
Or is it just about ego and purity?
I think the answer's clear. |
To be fair, you’re not much of a critical thinker so ...
And you certainly can’t address posts. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:20 - Nov 18 with 1398 views | giant_stow |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:09 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
To be fair, you’re not much of a critical thinker so ...
And you certainly can’t address posts. |
Predictable and boring.
I addressed your post (your guys provably couldn't win, so were never in any position to actually help kids. All they could offer was sound and fury)
Ironic that you couldn’t address mine. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:23 - Nov 18 with 1394 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 12:59 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
Do you think Corbyn should get a pass then? You say he's being thrown under the bus, should he not be at all accountable for leading a party that was found to have committed unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination by the EHRC? Should he be let off because he seems like a decent sort really? He could have done the decent thing and kept his mouth shut or issued a genuine apology but he chose not to. It's interesting that you put this wholly at Starmer's door, Corbyn is the one who has made this a problem through his continued pig-headedness. That trait is one of the reasons why I generally supported the policies whilst having little time for the man. |
You didn’t answer whether it was right of Starmer to put that in his EHRC report statement.
This has been an exhausting 4 or 5 years and the smear campaign was incredibly damaging to UK politics and the fight against antisemitism it must also be said. Trying to whitewash it is a purely political move and especially cynical on the occasion of the EHRC report.
Do I wish Corbyn hadn’t responded to the provocation? Yes. But not sure he had much choice given it was possibly the most smeary step of all to try and establish it as recorded and accepted history.
Starmer has disappointed on almost every level compared to the candidate he said he was. Not entirely sure why it’s going so wrong for him and why his choices seem so clumsy. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:26 - Nov 18 with 1378 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:20 - Nov 18 by giant_stow |
Predictable and boring.
I addressed your post (your guys provably couldn't win, so were never in any position to actually help kids. All they could offer was sound and fury)
Ironic that you couldn’t address mine. |
No, you dodged your incredible hypocrisy. Because that’s what hypocrites do. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:30 - Nov 18 with 1358 views | giant_stow |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:26 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
No, you dodged your incredible hypocrisy. Because that’s what hypocrites do. |
no deary, I explained why there was no hypocracy and for the second response in a row, you've had no real answer. Because its true. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:41 - Nov 18 with 1328 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:30 - Nov 18 by giant_stow |
no deary, I explained why there was no hypocracy and for the second response in a row, you've had no real answer. Because its true. |
No, you are justifying your hypocrisy. “Provably couldn’t win” is a self-fulfilling prophecy when half the PLP, most of Labour HQ and pliant journalists were not only briefing against Corbin but amplifying the worst accusations from those outside the party.
You and your ilk supported them every step of the way and handed the elections to the Tories. While also ensuring the debate around poor kids never even took place when it should have been front and centre.
Have more respect for yourself and be honest about that. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:42 - Nov 18 with 1328 views | StokieBlue |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:23 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
You didn’t answer whether it was right of Starmer to put that in his EHRC report statement.
This has been an exhausting 4 or 5 years and the smear campaign was incredibly damaging to UK politics and the fight against antisemitism it must also be said. Trying to whitewash it is a purely political move and especially cynical on the occasion of the EHRC report.
Do I wish Corbyn hadn’t responded to the provocation? Yes. But not sure he had much choice given it was possibly the most smeary step of all to try and establish it as recorded and accepted history.
Starmer has disappointed on almost every level compared to the candidate he said he was. Not entirely sure why it’s going so wrong for him and why his choices seem so clumsy. |
Starmer has disappointed you on almost every level yet Labour are now polling level or just ahead of the Tories after suffering an absolute mauling at the last election.
Now some of that is a function of the Tories being awful but I don't think JC would have been polling level at this point. As discussed many times, you can have the best ideology in the world but if you are not in power to implement it then it means very little.
It's about ideology again - Starmer is not exactly what you want and thus he's nothing. You've not even waited until a manifesto or policies to make your decision.
SB [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 13:42]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:45 - Nov 18 with 1316 views | giant_stow |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:41 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
No, you are justifying your hypocrisy. “Provably couldn’t win” is a self-fulfilling prophecy when half the PLP, most of Labour HQ and pliant journalists were not only briefing against Corbin but amplifying the worst accusations from those outside the party.
You and your ilk supported them every step of the way and handed the elections to the Tories. While also ensuring the debate around poor kids never even took place when it should have been front and centre.
Have more respect for yourself and be honest about that. |
Corbynite Labour lost every election they possibly could and then their leader was voted out by Labour members. Remember?
I voted labour at both the last general elections - I take it you did too? Or did the SNP turn your head?
Live with the results of your side's failures. Until you accept them, you won't be able to move on and think rationally. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:48 - Nov 18 with 1308 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:42 - Nov 18 by StokieBlue |
Starmer has disappointed you on almost every level yet Labour are now polling level or just ahead of the Tories after suffering an absolute mauling at the last election.
Now some of that is a function of the Tories being awful but I don't think JC would have been polling level at this point. As discussed many times, you can have the best ideology in the world but if you are not in power to implement it then it means very little.
It's about ideology again - Starmer is not exactly what you want and thus he's nothing. You've not even waited until a manifesto or policies to make your decision.
SB [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 13:42]
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At the time of the worst Tory government and a ludicrous response to handling the pandemic and Brexit? And with Starmer given a free ride and almost positive bias?
I think the underlying electoral position looks pretty weak considering. Just wait until the politics really starts and other issues come to the fore. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:51 - Nov 18 with 1291 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:45 - Nov 18 by giant_stow |
Corbynite Labour lost every election they possibly could and then their leader was voted out by Labour members. Remember?
I voted labour at both the last general elections - I take it you did too? Or did the SNP turn your head?
Live with the results of your side's failures. Until you accept them, you won't be able to move on and think rationally. |
Corbyn’s five years are defined by antisemtism, not able to put forward a coherent position on Brexit and losing two general elections to the worst two Prime ministers in living memory.
As I said on another thread, those Corbyn supporters who continually defend him turn a blind eye to his failings are the same as trump supporters but just have a better command of the English language. The cult like following is identical.
Even the excuses over election defeats. With Trump supporters it’s fraud. With the Corbynites it was the backstabbed who robbed him of election victory.
The sooner he’s consigned to the dustbin of history we can all move on. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:52 - Nov 18 with 1292 views | giant_stow |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 13:48 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
At the time of the worst Tory government and a ludicrous response to handling the pandemic and Brexit? And with Starmer given a free ride and almost positive bias?
I think the underlying electoral position looks pretty weak considering. Just wait until the politics really starts and other issues come to the fore. |
The tories have been a shambles for years - you've got a proper nerve trying to blame that for Starmer's good polling. Its such a shame that some of the weakest govenments ever have coincided with the weakest oppositions. | |
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