| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? 11:07 - Nov 18 with 9961 views | Steve_M |
Anyway, right decision from Starmer. Labour needs to demonstrate that it's complaints procedures are robust and yesterday failed at that regardless of the verdict reached. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 16:57 - Nov 18 with 1375 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 16:55 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
Starmer didn’t suspend Corbyn for a start |
He confirmed he was consulted. Either way, it was Evans his right-hand man as Gen Sec. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:01 - Nov 18 with 1357 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 16:55 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
3rd attempt. I wrote a longer reply and lost it twice when the page unexpectedly refreshed.
Anyway, here goes. Here’s the section that stood out and which Starmer doubled down on in the subsequent interviews:
“And if — after all the pain, all the grief, and all the evidence in this report, there are still those who think there’s no problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. That it’s all exaggerated, or a factional attack.
Then, frankly, you are part of the problem too. And you should be nowhere near the Labour Party either.”
The problem is that no-one was saying that there is “no problem” or that it was “all exaggerated”. And it’s an insulting dismissal used by the very same people who have been leading the attack. The vast majority of those who bring up the smear campaign accept there are real incidents of antisemitism and people who need to be dealt with. But the exaggeration itself was hugely political, factional, cynical and painful to the Jewish community at large. As well as the many people and ordinary Labour members who were caught up in it and were smeared personally.
An honest appraisal takes that into account. But there was also zero need to make this crude dismissal here at the time of the EHRC report. It was ridiculously provocative and again part of the very smear campaign people have been complaining about.
Should Corbin have risen to it? No. But easy to say when you’re not the one in the dock and now being asked to carry the can for an exaggerated crime that not even the EHRC report backed up.
If Starmer wants us to deny the evidence of our own eyes then he can f@ck right off. That’s shyte authoritarian and unprincipled politics and I see no reason why I would support that or in whose genuine interests it is to support it. |
The problem is that if you apologise for there being an antisemitism problem and then say "but it was exaggerated and politically motivated" then essentially the apology that came before the "but" is rendered meaningless. I still find it odd that you focus all your energy on Starmer being the bad buy when it was on Corbyn's watch that Labour was responsible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination. Why aren't you angry at Corbyn for not doing more in the first place? And then compounding his own failures by reopening old wounds with the claim the problem was exaggerated? One of them is trying to put the issue of antisemitism to bed, the other one is the same old Jeremy Corbyn. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:05 - Nov 18 with 1341 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 16:41 - Nov 18 by SpruceMoose |
So what's your point? Because some people who live elsewhere don't like her, her constituents should sit up and listen?
The people who vote for her clearly feel she represents them well. They'd be quite able to kick up enough stink if not.
This trope that she's some kind of clueless dullard who doesn't know up from down is really quite distasteful and not based on reality. Like I said above, there is another reason that she gets so much abuse and it's not job performance. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 16:47]
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Just that being popular with constituents isn’t a massive deal for competency in safe seats, Mark Francois is sitting on a similar sized majority in Essex
Like Abbott, Francois shouldn’t be on the front benches - doesn’t make them bad constituency MPs though |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:15 - Nov 18 with 1318 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 16:57 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
He confirmed he was consulted. Either way, it was Evans his right-hand man as Gen Sec. |
So the suspension from party and reinstatement weren’t by Starmer then? | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:17 - Nov 18 with 1311 views | SpruceMoose |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:05 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
Just that being popular with constituents isn’t a massive deal for competency in safe seats, Mark Francois is sitting on a similar sized majority in Essex
Like Abbott, Francois shouldn’t be on the front benches - doesn’t make them bad constituency MPs though |
Francois doesn't get anywhere the level of abuse Abbott does. He doesn't have a whole section of his Wikipedia account devoted to it. So I repeat, the level of abuse Abbott receives is not in line with the level of her job performance or the level of performance we see from other MPs.
Rather than beating about the bush I'll just say it. She gets extra attention, extra abuse, unwarranted comments about her appearance and judged on a different standard than her peers by the press and other political commentators etc. because she's outspoken and Black. |  |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:20 - Nov 18 with 1297 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:01 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
The problem is that if you apologise for there being an antisemitism problem and then say "but it was exaggerated and politically motivated" then essentially the apology that came before the "but" is rendered meaningless. I still find it odd that you focus all your energy on Starmer being the bad buy when it was on Corbyn's watch that Labour was responsible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination. Why aren't you angry at Corbyn for not doing more in the first place? And then compounding his own failures by reopening old wounds with the claim the problem was exaggerated? One of them is trying to put the issue of antisemitism to bed, the other one is the same old Jeremy Corbyn. |
I suggest you read the Labour leaks (or a summar) and the actual EHRC report then we can talk about what Corbyn did or didn’t do.
From a regulatory point of view, the leadership bears responsibility - I accept that. But what was going on was vastly different from how it was characterised in the mainstream at the time and even now.
Just as an aside, there’s a reason why I don’t get involved in discussions about Syria as it seems a mess of political and nationalist self-interest and communication/miscommunication. I don’t know who or what to believe. I’ll probably dig into it one day when I’ve really got time to sort the wheat from the chaff. The Labour antisemitism crisis should be the same for most people too but it seems everybody and his dog has an opinion based on a hugely superficial narrative driven by very motivated and politicized actors. It was never about dealing with antiSemitism and processing antisemitism complaints (although of course it should be). That was just a sticky procedural area where Corbyn could be ensnared and defeated as a political opponent and as a pro-Palestinian. That’s the bigger picture and always has been. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:28 - Nov 18 with 1278 views | GlasgowBlue |
Btw for those who still have their heads in the sand over the rock Corbyn lifted when he became leader, read this full thread showing the replies to a Labour Party post about Starmer visiting a Synagogue earlier in the week.
The absolute state of the the replies in an official Labour Party forum.
These are Corbyn’s people. This is his legacy. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 17:53]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:28 - Nov 18 with 1279 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:15 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
So the suspension from party and reinstatement weren’t by Starmer then? |
The reinstatement certainly wasn’t. The suspension was with his blessing it appears.
Even if his chosen enforcer did it independently (which would seem utterly unbelievable given Corbyn is the ex-leader), as we’ve learnt from the EHRC the procedural irregularity and political interference is still Starmer’s responsibility. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:40 - Nov 18 with 1257 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:28 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
The reinstatement certainly wasn’t. The suspension was with his blessing it appears.
Even if his chosen enforcer did it independently (which would seem utterly unbelievable given Corbyn is the ex-leader), as we’ve learnt from the EHRC the procedural irregularity and political interference is still Starmer’s responsibility. |
“Starmer’s chosen enforcer” - I thought Evans was appointed by the NEC....
So Corbyn was suspended by the person appointed by the General Secretary.
Not suspended by Starmer, not by Starmers chosen enforcer, and allowed back by who?
If Starmer was interfering and suspending him, JC would still be out on his ear waiting for a new independent process, as recommended by the EHRC report.
So let’s stick to the facts here | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:44 - Nov 18 with 1247 views | Herbivore |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:20 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
I suggest you read the Labour leaks (or a summar) and the actual EHRC report then we can talk about what Corbyn did or didn’t do.
From a regulatory point of view, the leadership bears responsibility - I accept that. But what was going on was vastly different from how it was characterised in the mainstream at the time and even now.
Just as an aside, there’s a reason why I don’t get involved in discussions about Syria as it seems a mess of political and nationalist self-interest and communication/miscommunication. I don’t know who or what to believe. I’ll probably dig into it one day when I’ve really got time to sort the wheat from the chaff. The Labour antisemitism crisis should be the same for most people too but it seems everybody and his dog has an opinion based on a hugely superficial narrative driven by very motivated and politicized actors. It was never about dealing with antiSemitism and processing antisemitism complaints (although of course it should be). That was just a sticky procedural area where Corbyn could be ensnared and defeated as a political opponent and as a pro-Palestinian. That’s the bigger picture and always has been. |
So you're taking the line that the problem of antisemitism was overstated and politically motivated. Whilst there's no issue with you saying that on a football forum, can you see how that view might be massively problematic on the day that the EHRC finds that unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination took place under Corbyn's watch? Can you really not see why peddling that line on that day is, at best, utter pig-headed idiocy? Can you genuinely not understand why Starmer might prefer the route of contrition and moving on rather than continuing to suggest that the issue was overblown and politically motivated? And I'd argue that the leader's responsibility goes beyond being regulatory, and I'm sure you would too if this was Johnson and the Tories we were talking about. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:47 - Nov 18 with 1241 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:28 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Btw for those who still have their heads in the sand over the rock Corbyn lifted when he became leader, read this full thread showing the replies to a Labour Party post about Starmer visiting a Synagogue earlier in the week.
The absolute state of the the replies in an official Labour Party forum.
These are Corbyn’s people. This is his legacy. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 17:53]
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Which ones in particular? Someone calls it the Jewish lobby which is antisemitic in effect. It should be the Israel lobby. And similarly Judaism isn’t an issue, Zionism is or certainly can be.
Those should be removed or re-stated. Complaining about too strong Israeli and Zionist links to Labour and Keir Starmer is valid political criticism, especially if you equate Israeli government with apartheid which you can, and Zionism with right-wing race supremacy which it often strays into to justify the oppression of Palestinians.
Let’s not go full Collier or Board of Deputies on everything, especially people making political points about politicians.
Jewish or Judaism should certainly never come into it so those comments need sorting out one way or another. We should also have the same standard for Muslim and Islam etc. which have been entirely normalised as criticisms in public debates. | |
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| It will be nice to have.... on 17:50 - Nov 18 with 1230 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| It will be nice to have.... on 12:39 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, the centre quietly opposing or working with the right will certainly make a change to the status quo ...
And that’s not at all accelerated the breakup of the UK and led to Brexit, never mind increased the systemic and regional inequalities in the country. |
This, this and this again....all these pretend Lefty types on here bemoaning how the working class vote has been usurped by the right need to ask where a genuine alternative narrative has been since New Labour arrived....you reap what you sow. And now they all seem to want to entrench the situation. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:04]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:53 - Nov 18 with 1224 views | Ryorry |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 16:01 - Nov 18 by JakeITFC |
This would be fine as an opinion if people were consistent in holding it about Labour, for example during the 2017 election when people in the party *actually* tried to stop them winning the election.
All well and good being anti-party politics now when it means nothing in the grand scheme of things - all of this hand-rubbing about how awful the tories are and how sad it is that we can't feed our poorest children is mostly coming from people who dismissed the option to remove them just last year.
For the avoidance of doubt on my position - Labour had (and still probably has) a major anti-semitism problem. But it also had a group of people, both inside and outside of the party, who were desperate for them not to win, and for the left-wing of the movement to be suppressed for whatever reason. There is nuance in the position, and that has to be considered when thinking about the actions of Starmer today and since he took over. |
Excuse me, I'm a life long Labour voter (incl in last year's election) who voted Green in 2017 as a tactical & environmental vote against the standing Tory with his 20K majority because the Lib Dems stood down for the Greens that time. Labour would have been a totally wasted vote.
But hey, you (and momentum) just carry on making judgements about, and putting down, good staunch old Labourites like myself instead of listening to them & Labour candidates' agents who were repeatedly dismissed on the doorstep with old Labourites telling them that they couldn't& wouldn't vote for JC - not because of what they'd read about him, but because of what they didn't see from him - an able, strong leader. That's how the Tories swung all those seats in the N & NE.
I don't want "nuance" from whatever people are spending all their time & energy splitting the labour party by repeatedly trying to resurrect a weak leader who failed repeatedly - what's the point in trying to raise the Titanic to sail again? Fruitless. I want yourself, DK and others still trying to do that to move on & support/help the LP to unify so that the Tories get the boot. There's no goal more important than that, and I find it sad that so many individuals can't put their personal likes aside for the greater good in such a time of need. You can argue about policies and "nuance" once that main goal has been achieved. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:58 - Nov 18 with 1217 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:44 - Nov 18 by Herbivore |
So you're taking the line that the problem of antisemitism was overstated and politically motivated. Whilst there's no issue with you saying that on a football forum, can you see how that view might be massively problematic on the day that the EHRC finds that unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination took place under Corbyn's watch? Can you really not see why peddling that line on that day is, at best, utter pig-headed idiocy? Can you genuinely not understand why Starmer might prefer the route of contrition and moving on rather than continuing to suggest that the issue was overblown and politically motivated? And I'd argue that the leader's responsibility goes beyond being regulatory, and I'm sure you would too if this was Johnson and the Tories we were talking about. |
No. There was a problem with antisemitism (incidences exist and should not be tolerated). There was also an exaggeration of the problem for political and factional gain as any analysis of the numbers shows.
Starmer could have taken the route of contrition towards the Jewish community and he largely did. But the dig about exaggeration was totally unnecessary and right out of the playbook of the chief smearers.
If it was by design, it’s a problem. If it’s incompetence and being tone-deaf that’s also a problem. But he’s shot himself in the foot with it if he thinks this was about moving on.
I want to see a proper and serious report from the Forde Inquiry and an end to sweeping this stuff under the rug when political goals have been achieved. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:03 - Nov 18 with 1206 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:53 - Nov 18 by Ryorry |
Excuse me, I'm a life long Labour voter (incl in last year's election) who voted Green in 2017 as a tactical & environmental vote against the standing Tory with his 20K majority because the Lib Dems stood down for the Greens that time. Labour would have been a totally wasted vote.
But hey, you (and momentum) just carry on making judgements about, and putting down, good staunch old Labourites like myself instead of listening to them & Labour candidates' agents who were repeatedly dismissed on the doorstep with old Labourites telling them that they couldn't& wouldn't vote for JC - not because of what they'd read about him, but because of what they didn't see from him - an able, strong leader. That's how the Tories swung all those seats in the N & NE.
I don't want "nuance" from whatever people are spending all their time & energy splitting the labour party by repeatedly trying to resurrect a weak leader who failed repeatedly - what's the point in trying to raise the Titanic to sail again? Fruitless. I want yourself, DK and others still trying to do that to move on & support/help the LP to unify so that the Tories get the boot. There's no goal more important than that, and I find it sad that so many individuals can't put their personal likes aside for the greater good in such a time of need. You can argue about policies and "nuance" once that main goal has been achieved. |
Why would I support a Labour Party who increasingly appears at odds with my own values and politics?
I may end up voting for them as the least worst candidate but I’ll actively put my weight behind promoting parties and ideas I believe in. So SNP and Greens it is until Labour show something more. | |
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| It will be nice to have.... on 18:08 - Nov 18 with 1198 views | giant_stow |
| It will be nice to have.... on 17:50 - Nov 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
This, this and this again....all these pretend Lefty types on here bemoaning how the working class vote has been usurped by the right need to ask where a genuine alternative narrative has been since New Labour arrived....you reap what you sow. And now they all seem to want to entrench the situation. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:04]
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You've had an alternative narative offered up over the last few years, but the electorate rejected it. |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:08 - Nov 18 with 1195 views | Ryorry |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:03 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Why would I support a Labour Party who increasingly appears at odds with my own values and politics?
I may end up voting for them as the least worst candidate but I’ll actively put my weight behind promoting parties and ideas I believe in. So SNP and Greens it is until Labour show something more. |
Don't support Labour then, go and start your own party, see how far you get - it would be the next best thing you & momentum people could do for everyone's sake. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:10 - Nov 18 with 1192 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:40 - Nov 18 by itfcjoe |
“Starmer’s chosen enforcer” - I thought Evans was appointed by the NEC....
So Corbyn was suspended by the person appointed by the General Secretary.
Not suspended by Starmer, not by Starmers chosen enforcer, and allowed back by who?
If Starmer was interfering and suspending him, JC would still be out on his ear waiting for a new independent process, as recommended by the EHRC report.
So let’s stick to the facts here |
Why are you getting in a muddle about things you clearly know nothing about?
That makes no sense. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:15 - Nov 18 with 1176 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 17:47 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Which ones in particular? Someone calls it the Jewish lobby which is antisemitic in effect. It should be the Israel lobby. And similarly Judaism isn’t an issue, Zionism is or certainly can be.
Those should be removed or re-stated. Complaining about too strong Israeli and Zionist links to Labour and Keir Starmer is valid political criticism, especially if you equate Israeli government with apartheid which you can, and Zionism with right-wing race supremacy which it often strays into to justify the oppression of Palestinians.
Let’s not go full Collier or Board of Deputies on everything, especially people making political points about politicians.
Jewish or Judaism should certainly never come into it so those comments need sorting out one way or another. We should also have the same standard for Muslim and Islam etc. which have been entirely normalised as criticisms in public debates. |
What ones?
The Rothschilds tropes.
The holding British Jews as a collective responsible for the actions of Israel.
Kier Starmer visits a place of worship for a British Jews and it elicits responses such a “You evil apartheid supporting Zionist . The murderous sniping innocent women and children Netanyahu Israeli lobby”
“He is doing his paymasters bidding”
There are pages on this stuff on the thread I linked.
You're getting into real Pete Willsman territory. Do you honestly not see this as an issue? Have you really sunk that far in the sewer?
You get pissed off when Badger, Lowhouse or I have accused you of excusing antisemitism. Well you’re doing it right here. Please stop. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 20:11]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:15 - Nov 18 with 1178 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:08 - Nov 18 by Ryorry |
Don't support Labour then, go and start your own party, see how far you get - it would be the next best thing you & momentum people could do for everyone's sake. |
No, Labour will come back left eventually. The centre is a policy and idea void for the most part.
In the meantime, there are better movements and ideas to push to speed up Labour returning to the left or just bypassing them. | |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:17 - Nov 18 with 1170 views | itfcjoe |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:10 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Why are you getting in a muddle about things you clearly know nothing about?
That makes no sense. |
I’m not the one in a muddle here, for someone who is seemingly such a truth seeker and anti smear, you are just smearing Starmer about this.
Corbyn was the leader of the party for the period where it was found to have committed unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination by the EHRC
Corbyn was the one who doesn’t take responsibility for it, releasing a statement 35 minutes after it comes out with a pathetic “sorry, but......” tone
Corbyn is the one who still can’t apologise properly for that statement
But it’s Starmer who is the bad guy, despite him neither suspending nor readmitting him to the party.
[Post edited 18 Nov 2020 18:20]
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:18 - Nov 18 with 1169 views | tractordownsouth |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:03 - Nov 18 by Darth_Koont |
Why would I support a Labour Party who increasingly appears at odds with my own values and politics?
I may end up voting for them as the least worst candidate but I’ll actively put my weight behind promoting parties and ideas I believe in. So SNP and Greens it is until Labour show something more. |
Why the SNP? We'd be saddled with Tory governments forever if Scotland went independent |  |
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| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:24 - Nov 18 with 1158 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we want a new Corbyn 15 pager today or just to add to yesterday's? on 18:15 - Nov 18 by GlasgowBlue |
What ones?
The Rothschilds tropes.
The holding British Jews as a collective responsible for the actions of Israel.
Kier Starmer visits a place of worship for a British Jews and it elicits responses such a “You evil apartheid supporting Zionist . The murderous sniping innocent women and children Netanyahu Israeli lobby”
“He is doing his paymasters bidding”
There are pages on this stuff on the thread I linked.
You're getting into real Pete Willsman territory. Do you honestly not see this as an issue? Have you really sunk that far in the sewer?
You get pissed off when Badger, Lowhouse or I have accused you of excusing antisemitism. Well you’re doing it right here. Please stop. [Post edited 18 Nov 2020 20:11]
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Talking about the Rothschilds and holding Jews accountable for Israel’s actions is antisemitic and I’d have said so if I’d seen them.
Criticising Zionism and apartheid Israel? Not so much.
It’s apparent we’re going to have a Labour Party and leader that will toe a very Israel-friendly line and one who will whitewash the smear campaign. I understand the general anger and distrust towards him on these matters. Not when it crosses over into antisemitism though or is even about antisemitism. No excuse for that, we can both agree. | |
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