| Nice to see this gaining some traction 07:04 - Mar 25 with 15047 views | Darth_Koont |
https://twitter.com/FreeNorthNow
And loving the logo and the slogan.
Just like UKIP (but without the xenophobia and fake news about EU) there’s value in outflanking Westminster political parties despite having no real chance to win power at that level. But they can certainly lose the Hartlepool by-election for a moribund and clueless Labour. And hopefully provide some proper representation for the people of Liverpool.
If it can help drive a more devolved approach to the English regions and better political representation then NIP will have done a great job.
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:36 - Mar 26 with 1080 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 15:00 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
As hollow and as much lip service as Starmer’s pledges?
He’s been useless on all of them from the start. Not least the question of unity.
I don’t get why I’m expected to a) ignore that and b) just keep supporting Labour anyway. Why would anyone support something they don’t agree with? 2-3 years out from an election. And especially when there are chronic issues with the UK economy, society and democracy, and even more pressing global issues here or on the immediate horizon.
And to return to your football analogy, Corbyn in the overall context was Mick. Arresting a long-term slide, bringing people and better results back. And then blamed for everything when that wasn’t enough. Now you’re having a go at me for saying Hurst or Lambert are worse and doing more damage even when they are. [Post edited 26 Mar 2021 15:04]
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Corbyn was definitely Lambert. Would never have been considered a few years prior to getting the job, then he made the hardcore fans feel good and performed better than expected after inheriting a tough situation. Then once the novelty wore off it all went to sh1t and he presided over falling to the lowest ebb since the 1930s/1950s. |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:41 - Mar 26 with 1069 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:11 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
I disagree with that and think we’re wasting time and losing ground.
If a bloody nose in Hartlepool hastens a change of direction then good. Better that than sleepwalking towards the next GE.
But even now, I’m seeing allies suggest Starmer can’t win but is setting up for 2028. If the be all and end all is getting the Tories out then WTAF?
But then again is that their goal at all. IIRC Change was formed and the antisemitism smears were ramped up when Corbyn was actually leading in the polls or at least level-pegging.
So, yeah. Maybe I’m not as strong a believer in their strategic nous or principles. |
I don't think Labour will win in 2024 - as much as I'd like that to happen, the leap is a bit too big. Starmer will probably do a Kinnock-esque job, and then someone like Burnham or Nandy will take over and have a platform to hopefully win in 2029. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:46 - Mar 26 with 1062 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:36 - Mar 26 by tractordownsouth |
Corbyn was definitely Lambert. Would never have been considered a few years prior to getting the job, then he made the hardcore fans feel good and performed better than expected after inheriting a tough situation. Then once the novelty wore off it all went to sh1t and he presided over falling to the lowest ebb since the 1930s/1950s. |
Lambert never performed better than expected. Jeez. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:49 - Mar 26 with 1060 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:46 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Lambert never performed better than expected. Jeez. |
I don't know, we had the famed 'improved performances' in the relegstion season where we still ended up as losers, so I kind of see the parallels. |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:49 - Mar 26 with 1058 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:41 - Mar 26 by tractordownsouth |
I don't think Labour will win in 2024 - as much as I'd like that to happen, the leap is a bit too big. Starmer will probably do a Kinnock-esque job, and then someone like Burnham or Nandy will take over and have a platform to hopefully win in 2029. |
That’s awful. And wrong.
Labour is truly done if that’s how slow and limited the current incumbents are. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:55 - Mar 26 with 1050 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:49 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
I don't know, we had the famed 'improved performances' in the relegstion season where we still ended up as losers, so I kind of see the parallels. |
So bringing hundreds of thousands of members into the party and millions of voters back was just ‘improved performances’?
‘Improved performances’ is absolutely made for Starmer and those trying to talk him up. As his polling and favourability goes down.
Not a cult. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:56 - Mar 26 with 1049 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:49 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
That’s awful. And wrong.
Labour is truly done if that’s how slow and limited the current incumbents are. |
It's more a measure of what a long way back it is following the GE in 2019. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:00 - Mar 26 with 1036 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:55 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
So bringing hundreds of thousands of members into the party and millions of voters back was just ‘improved performances’?
‘Improved performances’ is absolutely made for Starmer and those trying to talk him up. As his polling and favourability goes down.
Not a cult. |
And how did those extra members translate at the ballot box in 2019? | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:04 - Mar 26 with 1026 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:56 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
It's more a measure of what a long way back it is following the GE in 2019. |
Brexit is done. Labour’s Brexit policy (Starmer’s baby and one I didn’t disagree with myself) is gone. Corbyn is gone. The ‘unbelievable’ progressive platform has been abandoned. The left is going.
What’s the excuse really? Apart from the obvious conclusion that there’s nothing of interest, no ideas and no plan. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:05 - Mar 26 with 1021 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:00 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
And how did those extra members translate at the ballot box in 2019? |
Going round in circles. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:27 - Mar 26 with 993 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:46 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Lambert never performed better than expected. Jeez. |
Improved performances without actually getting results is the 2017 election down to a tee
Had JC left after that result, he’d have gone down as a half- decent leader, as 260 seats is a platform from which to win the next election. [Post edited 26 Mar 2021 17:28]
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:53 - Mar 26 with 972 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:27 - Mar 26 by tractordownsouth |
Improved performances without actually getting results is the 2017 election down to a tee
Had JC left after that result, he’d have gone down as a half- decent leader, as 260 seats is a platform from which to win the next election. [Post edited 26 Mar 2021 17:28]
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No, it was quantifiable. Nothing like Lambert.
And if the Labour establishment and hangers-on hadn’t shown their true colours after 2017 (let alone before when they were actually trying to sabotage the election campaign) then they’d have had a platform to build on.
It was never about getting the Tories out. It’s always about serving the soft Establishment, buttressing that left flank and getting paid.
2 questions for you: Where’s the Forde Inquiry? And Why do people want or expect me to support a party and its politics that I clearly disagree with on a fundamental level? | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:56 - Mar 26 with 962 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:05 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Going round in circles. |
Probably because you still haven’t explained how an approach which was proven to fail miserably will suddenly deliver a different result |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:04 - Mar 26 with 956 views | tractordownsouth |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:53 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
No, it was quantifiable. Nothing like Lambert.
And if the Labour establishment and hangers-on hadn’t shown their true colours after 2017 (let alone before when they were actually trying to sabotage the election campaign) then they’d have had a platform to build on.
It was never about getting the Tories out. It’s always about serving the soft Establishment, buttressing that left flank and getting paid.
2 questions for you: Where’s the Forde Inquiry? And Why do people want or expect me to support a party and its politics that I clearly disagree with on a fundamental level? |
Info on the inquiry is here: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/labourlist.org/2021/02/forde-inquiry-report-delay
By fundemental disagreement, I assume you disagree with wanting to increase NHS pay above inflation, extending FSM and you agree with the Internal Market Act and Policing bill? Because those are the opposite positions to the current Labour leadership.
To be honest I really struggle with what it is you actually want. No manifesto has been released yet (something which is completely normal practice for all political parties - even Corbyn’s Labour) but the leadership’s response to Tory positions have been left or centre-left on almost every issue. I’ve had my criticisms myself (Rosie Duffield’s behaviour and Starmer’s indecision on schools were disappointing) but to pretend it’s Tory-lite or “soft establishment” (whatever that means - it sounds like Farage speak to me) doesn’t really stand up to the facts. [Post edited 26 Mar 2021 18:07]
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:04 - Mar 26 with 956 views | Herbivore |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:05 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
Going round in circles. |
Indeed, but that's mainly because on this issue you tend to skirt around the bits that are uncomfortable. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:05 - Mar 26 with 954 views | Funge |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:53 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
No, it was quantifiable. Nothing like Lambert.
And if the Labour establishment and hangers-on hadn’t shown their true colours after 2017 (let alone before when they were actually trying to sabotage the election campaign) then they’d have had a platform to build on.
It was never about getting the Tories out. It’s always about serving the soft Establishment, buttressing that left flank and getting paid.
2 questions for you: Where’s the Forde Inquiry? And Why do people want or expect me to support a party and its politics that I clearly disagree with on a fundamental level? |
DK, it seems to me that your stance here is all about highlighting the failings of Starmer and co, rather than actually focussing upon the real enemy.
I called out a few on this board when Corbyn won the leadership (BoJK and Lowhouse as I recall, perhaps others also), as I thought it important that a degree of unity prevailed; indeed, this persevered throughout the subsequent leadership challenge of Owen Smith.
The reality is that Corbyn's opposition resulted in Labour getting *humiliated* in the 2019 election. This is a palpable fact.
The priority here is getting Johnson's cabal of incompetents, liars and the dead-eyed household pet drowner that is Priti Patel, out of office.
Corbyn has left the opposition in such a state, that the prospect of this seems tremendously far away.
I don't care much for KS (Ian Tomlinson case being a particular nadir of his time at the CPS), and there's quite a lot that I dislike about his leadership thus far - but he really isn't the real enemy here. |  | | |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:33 - Mar 26 with 930 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 17:56 - Mar 26 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Probably because you still haven’t explained how an approach which was proven to fail miserably will suddenly deliver a different result |
You need to widen your sample size of the data. Look at 1997 to the present day.
Anyone can make any case they want by cherry-picking one election in isolation.
If you really think the 24-year trend shows that Labour need to aim right then you’re delusional. Let alone about where the world is now and the challenges it’s facing. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:40 - Mar 26 with 918 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:05 - Mar 26 by Funge |
DK, it seems to me that your stance here is all about highlighting the failings of Starmer and co, rather than actually focussing upon the real enemy.
I called out a few on this board when Corbyn won the leadership (BoJK and Lowhouse as I recall, perhaps others also), as I thought it important that a degree of unity prevailed; indeed, this persevered throughout the subsequent leadership challenge of Owen Smith.
The reality is that Corbyn's opposition resulted in Labour getting *humiliated* in the 2019 election. This is a palpable fact.
The priority here is getting Johnson's cabal of incompetents, liars and the dead-eyed household pet drowner that is Priti Patel, out of office.
Corbyn has left the opposition in such a state, that the prospect of this seems tremendously far away.
I don't care much for KS (Ian Tomlinson case being a particular nadir of his time at the CPS), and there's quite a lot that I dislike about his leadership thus far - but he really isn't the real enemy here. |
Fair words. But the Labour leadership and HQ isn’t interested in unity or learning from the past from what I can see.
If we agree on a shared aim of having a better government at least than BoJo et al then I think they’re running Labour into the ground as a genuine opposition party and as a challenge in 2023/4.
That’s the real fear. That they’re the ones who are doing the most to enable some Perma-Tory government. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 19:58 - Mar 26 with 883 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 18:33 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
You need to widen your sample size of the data. Look at 1997 to the present day.
Anyone can make any case they want by cherry-picking one election in isolation.
If you really think the 24-year trend shows that Labour need to aim right then you’re delusional. Let alone about where the world is now and the challenges it’s facing. |
‘Anyone can make any case they want by cherry-picking one election in isolation’...says poster who has spent most of this thread focusing on the 2017 election defeat whilst completely glossing over the much larger 2019 defeat
Probably wasting my breath to point out that period featured 3 election victories for the version of the party that you insist can’t win elections, and erm (checks notes), none for the one that you insist the way forward. But why bother to learn from actual election outcomes when you can just focus on feels and pretend crushing defeats never happened, they’re just an isolated election after all | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 22:25 - Mar 26 with 839 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 19:58 - Mar 26 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
‘Anyone can make any case they want by cherry-picking one election in isolation’...says poster who has spent most of this thread focusing on the 2017 election defeat whilst completely glossing over the much larger 2019 defeat
Probably wasting my breath to point out that period featured 3 election victories for the version of the party that you insist can’t win elections, and erm (checks notes), none for the one that you insist the way forward. But why bother to learn from actual election outcomes when you can just focus on feels and pretend crushing defeats never happened, they’re just an isolated election after all |
Right, so I think we’ve established that you can’t or won’t address Labour’s downward trend over decades.
Thanks for playing! | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 22:51 - Mar 26 with 826 views | Ryorry |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:55 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
So bringing hundreds of thousands of members into the party and millions of voters back was just ‘improved performances’?
‘Improved performances’ is absolutely made for Starmer and those trying to talk him up. As his polling and favourability goes down.
Not a cult. |
What's the point of
1. Having "hundreds of thousands of members into the party" when all those members do now is bleat on about how wonderful their failed leader was, try to bring him back, endlessly tweet "Starmer Out", and split the party?
2. "And get millions of voters back" when they were so appalled by JC's leadership that they deserted him/Labour in droves to let the tories in with an 80 seat majority?
You are literally living in a fantasy world rooting for Starmer to be replaced and a seriously left Labour Party. British people are generally moderates. All you're doing is enabling the very toryism that you (and we) hate so much, for the forseeable future. You're an absolute liability, when you could be a terrific asset in getting rid. I'd say open your eyes, but you're so deep in the trench you'd still not be able to see the way ahead. So frustrating. B. Johnson just loves you, he must rub his hands with glee when he sees what others like you disseminate on Twitter :( |  |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 23:27 - Mar 26 with 805 views | Darth_Koont |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 22:51 - Mar 26 by Ryorry |
What's the point of
1. Having "hundreds of thousands of members into the party" when all those members do now is bleat on about how wonderful their failed leader was, try to bring him back, endlessly tweet "Starmer Out", and split the party?
2. "And get millions of voters back" when they were so appalled by JC's leadership that they deserted him/Labour in droves to let the tories in with an 80 seat majority?
You are literally living in a fantasy world rooting for Starmer to be replaced and a seriously left Labour Party. British people are generally moderates. All you're doing is enabling the very toryism that you (and we) hate so much, for the forseeable future. You're an absolute liability, when you could be a terrific asset in getting rid. I'd say open your eyes, but you're so deep in the trench you'd still not be able to see the way ahead. So frustrating. B. Johnson just loves you, he must rub his hands with glee when he sees what others like you disseminate on Twitter :( |
You're probably right about one thing: I also think Johnson is rubbing his hands with glee. | |
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 06:31 - Mar 27 with 754 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 23:27 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
You're probably right about one thing: I also think Johnson is rubbing his hands with glee. |
Doing the Tories work for them.
[Post edited 27 Mar 2021 6:41]
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| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 08:10 - Mar 27 with 725 views | chicoazul |
| Nice to see this gaining some traction on 16:49 - Mar 26 by Darth_Koont |
That’s awful. And wrong.
Labour is truly done if that’s how slow and limited the current incumbents are. |
Labour is done because the Tories have nicked all their policies & presented them much better and have a very popular leader. They are basically better Marxists than Labour are. |  |
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